lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Two00m » Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:38:30


NASCAR freezes the field at the moment the caution waves.  They now have
scoring loops at multiple places around the track (not just at start-finish) to
aid in doing this.

The first car one lap down AT THAT MOMENT gets the free pass.

Where the confusion came on Saturday is whether the Pardoned car lines up for
the restart as (a) the last car on the lead lap, or (b) the tail end of the
longest line.

If (a), then in Saturday's Busch race, the Pardoned car should have lined up
right in front of the leader, behind all the tail end of the lead lap cars
stuck behind the pace car.  After Saturday's confusion, NASCAR held several
meetings, and agreed on (b).

The Free Pass car goes to the end of the longest line for the restart.  His
position is not affected by cars that pit during the caution or choose not to
pit.

 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Robert R Kircher, Jr » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:18:25

Quote:

> NASCAR freezes the field at the moment the caution waves.  They now
> have scoring loops at multiple places around the track (not just at
> start-finish) to aid in doing this.

> The first car one lap down AT THAT MOMENT gets the free pass.

> Where the confusion came on Saturday is whether the Pardoned car
> lines up for the restart as (a) the last car on the lead lap, or (b)
> the tail end of the longest line.

> If (a), then in Saturday's Busch race, the Pardoned car should have
> lined up right in front of the leader, behind all the tail end of the
> lead lap cars stuck behind the pace car.  After Saturday's confusion,
> NASCAR held several meetings, and agreed on (b).

> The Free Pass car goes to the end of the longest line for the
> restart.  His position is not affected by cars that pit during the
> caution or choose not to pit.

But you see, Mike, that doesn't work either because if the driver gets his
lap back the old way, by racing back to the line, he starts at the end of
the lead lap car line or at a minimum behind the car in front of him in the
running order.  e.g. as the last car on the lead lap he's 10th and lined up
behind the 9th position car.  If the 7,8, and 9th position cars then pit and
he doesn't he becomes the 7th place car.

As I understand option B, he would always remain 10th while everyone else in
front of him pits.  That's not right.  If they are going to let him pass the
pace car and put him back on the lead lap then he should have the advantages
he had when they used to race back to the line.

IMO, if NASCAR continues with this rule (freezing the field) they need to
freeze (close) the pits until the have the field lined up in frozen order
including the placement of the pardoned car, and then open the pits.  The
running order is then determined based on who pits and who doesn't and who
gets out of the pits first.  This most closely represents the running order
changes that could have occurred prior to the new yellow flag rules.

--

Rob
Q: "What did the redneck say right before he died?"
A: "Hey ya'all watch this!!"

 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Somebod » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:55:18


Quote:
> NASCAR freezes the field at the moment the caution waves.  They now have
> scoring loops at multiple places around the track (not just at
start-finish) to
> aid in doing this.

> The first car one lap down AT THAT MOMENT gets the free pass.

> Where the confusion came on Saturday is whether the Pardoned car lines up
for
> the restart as (a) the last car on the lead lap, or (b) the tail end of
the
> longest line.

> If (a), then in Saturday's Busch race, the Pardoned car should have lined
up
> right in front of the leader, behind all the tail end of the lead lap cars
> stuck behind the pace car.  After Saturday's confusion, NASCAR held
several
> meetings, and agreed on (b).

> The Free Pass car goes to the end of the longest line for the restart.
His
> position is not affected by cars that pit during the caution or choose not
to
> pit.

Doesn't that put the lucky dog ahead of all the cars at the tail end of the
lead lap then, who are actually lined up in front of the leader on the
track?

-Russ.

 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Robert R Kircher, Jr » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 01:02:13

Quote:



>> NASCAR freezes the field at the moment the caution waves.  They now
>> have scoring loops at multiple places around the track (not just at
>> start-finish) to aid in doing this.

>> The first car one lap down AT THAT MOMENT gets the free pass.

>> Where the confusion came on Saturday is whether the Pardoned car
>> lines up for the restart as (a) the last car on the lead lap, or (b)
>> the tail end of the longest line.

>> If (a), then in Saturday's Busch race, the Pardoned car should have
>> lined up right in front of the leader, behind all the tail end of
>> the lead lap cars stuck behind the pace car.  After Saturday's
>> confusion, NASCAR held several meetings, and agreed on (b).

>> The Free Pass car goes to the end of the longest line for the
>> restart. His position is not affected by cars that pit during the
>> caution or choose not to pit.

> Doesn't that put the lucky dog ahead of all the cars at the tail end
> of the lead lap then, who are actually lined up in front of the
> leader on the track?

> -Russ.

That problem would be resolved if the got rid of the tail end of the lead
lap crap.  Put all those cars at the end of the longest line and let the
leader start up front.

--

Rob
Q: "What did the redneck say right before he died?"
A: "Hey ya'all watch this!!"

 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by M& » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 01:59:15



Quote:



> >> NASCAR freezes the field at the moment the caution waves.  They now
> >> have scoring loops at multiple places around the track (not just at
> >> start-finish) to aid in doing this.

> >> The first car one lap down AT THAT MOMENT gets the free pass.

> >> Where the confusion came on Saturday is whether the Pardoned car
> >> lines up for the restart as (a) the last car on the lead lap, or (b)
> >> the tail end of the longest line.

> >> If (a), then in Saturday's Busch race, the Pardoned car should have
> >> lined up right in front of the leader, behind all the tail end of
> >> the lead lap cars stuck behind the pace car.  After Saturday's
> >> confusion, NASCAR held several meetings, and agreed on (b).

> >> The Free Pass car goes to the end of the longest line for the
> >> restart. His position is not affected by cars that pit during the
> >> caution or choose not to pit.

> > Doesn't that put the lucky dog ahead of all the cars at the tail end
> > of the lead lap then, who are actually lined up in front of the
> > leader on the track?

> > -Russ.

> That problem would be resolved if the got rid of the tail end of the lead
> lap crap.  Put all those cars at the end of the longest line and let the
> leader start up front.

> --

> Rob
> Q: "What did the redneck say right before he died?"
> A: "Hey ya'all watch this!!"

stack 'em in order.  now that there is the luck dog, the 1st car a lap down
will always get a lap back and the lap cars will now be racing among the lap
cars.  it couldn't be any simpler now.

mike.............

 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Robert R Kircher, Jr » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 02:02:07

Quote:






>>>> NASCAR freezes the field at the moment the caution waves.  They now
>>>> have scoring loops at multiple places around the track (not just at
>>>> start-finish) to aid in doing this.

>>>> The first car one lap down AT THAT MOMENT gets the free pass.

>>>> Where the confusion came on Saturday is whether the Pardoned car
>>>> lines up for the restart as (a) the last car on the lead lap, or
>>>> (b) the tail end of the longest line.

>>>> If (a), then in Saturday's Busch race, the Pardoned car should have
>>>> lined up right in front of the leader, behind all the tail end of
>>>> the lead lap cars stuck behind the pace car.  After Saturday's
>>>> confusion, NASCAR held several meetings, and agreed on (b).

>>>> The Free Pass car goes to the end of the longest line for the
>>>> restart. His position is not affected by cars that pit during the
>>>> caution or choose not to pit.

>>> Doesn't that put the lucky dog ahead of all the cars at the tail end
>>> of the lead lap then, who are actually lined up in front of the
>>> leader on the track?

>>> -Russ.

>> That problem would be resolved if the got rid of the tail end of the
>> lead lap crap.  Put all those cars at the end of the longest line
>> and let the leader start up front.

>> --

>> Rob
>> Q: "What did the redneck say right before he died?"
>> A: "Hey ya'all watch this!!"

> stack 'em in order.  now that there is the luck dog, the 1st car a
> lap down will always get a lap back and the lap cars will now be
> racing among the lap cars.  it couldn't be any simpler now.

> mike.............

That's exactly what would happen if you let all the tailenders by the pace
care prior to the restart.  And I agree completely.

--

Rob
Q: "What did the redneck say right before he died?"
A: "Hey ya'all watch this!!"

 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by M& » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 02:13:17



Quote:

> > stack 'em in order.  now that there is the luck dog, the 1st car a
> > lap down will always get a lap back and the lap cars will now be
> > racing among the lap cars.  it couldn't be any simpler now.

> > mike.............

> That's exactly what would happen if you let all the tailenders by the pace
> care prior to the restart.  And I agree completely.

> --

> Rob
> Q: "What did the redneck say right before he died?"
> A: "Hey ya'all watch this!!"

now that they have the cars soooo equal, wouldn't it be nice to see a
re-start of just the leaders in a side by side re-start w/ all those cars 1
or more laps down in the back of the pack fighting among themselves and if
there is a problem involving a wreck w/ those lapped cars it wouldn't effect
the lead lap cars.  another thing i'm tired of is a car that is 2 or more
laps down, being in front of cars 1 lap down on a re-start, that shouldn't
be, it doesn't matter if he was outta the pits first.

mike..........

 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Robert R Kircher, Jr » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 02:31:10

Quote:


>> That's exactly what would happen if you let all the tailenders by
>> the pace care prior to the restart.  And I agree completely.

>> --

>> Rob
>> Q: "What did the redneck say right before he died?"
>> A: "Hey ya'all watch this!!"

> now that they have the cars soooo equal, wouldn't it be nice to see a
> re-start of just the leaders in a side by side re-start w/ all those
> cars 1 or more laps down in the back of the pack fighting among
> themselves and if there is a problem involving a wreck w/ those
> lapped cars it wouldn't effect the lead lap cars.  another thing i'm
> tired of is a car that is 2 or more laps down, being in front of cars
> 1 lap down on a re-start, that shouldn't be, it doesn't matter if he
> was outta the pits first.

> mike..........

Personally, I like the way the Busch series used to it.  IIRC the lapped car
would line up on the outside.  That gives the 1 lap down guys a chance to
get back on the lead lap but doesn't force the faster cars to dive to the
inside between slower cars.  IMO it's that action of faster cars trying to
get to the inside lane between lapped cars that causes the accidents.  In
most cases the slower cars on the outside simply get left behind as the
inside lane of faster cars takes off.

--

Rob
Q: "What did the redneck say right before he died?"
A: "Hey ya'all watch this!!"

 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Two00m » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:29:06

Quote:
>As I understand option B, he would always remain 10th while everyone else in
>front of him pits.

Correct.  The intent is to give him back his lap but NOT give him additional
"unearned" positions.
 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Two00m » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:31:21

Quote:
>Doesn't that put the Free Pass car ahead of all the cars at the tail end of

the lead lap then, who are actually lined up in front of the leader on the
track?

Yes.  But remember, AT THE MOMENT OF THE CAUTION, those cars were also lap
down.  They got their lap back because the leader pitted and they moved up.
That has nothing to do with the Free Pass, as Mike Helton clarified things
Sunday morning..

 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Two00m » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:35:48

I like the way the IRL does it. When the starter signals "one to go before
green", the pace car waves around the cars that chose not to pit and are on the
tail end of the lead lap, and the pace car picks up the leader.
Three things happen:
(1) no, the cars getting the wave-around dont have full fuel and new tires, but
they have their lap back and can hope for another yellow before they need to
stop.  Its a gamble, and adds a bit of strategy.
(2) The leader never restarts in the middle of the pack.
(3) the "almost lap-down" cars are inthe back, out of the way.
 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Robert R Kircher, Jr » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:49:32

Quote:

>> As I understand option B, he would always remain 10th while everyone
>> else in front of him pits.

> Correct.  The intent is to give him back his lap but NOT give him
> additional "unearned" positions.

But wouldn't they become earned positions if he passed the cars in front of
him as they pit?

I guess it depends on when they give him the pass.  If its after pit stops
are completed and the green is about to fall then it all works out.

Personally, I still think it's all to convoluted and should simply be
dropped along with the freeze the field idea.   Mind you I understand the
intent and the need for safety, I just don't think this rule is the right
way to go.  I guaranty you that a heavy handed approach by NASCAR to
maintain the "gentleman's agreement" would have curtailed the recent rash of
near misses ala Dale Jerret.  Race past a crash and you get parked no ands
ifs or buts about it.

--

Rob
Q: "What did the redneck say right before he died?"
A: "Hey ya'all watch this!!"

 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Robert R Kircher, Jr » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:59:00

Quote:

> I like the way the IRL does it. When the starter signals "one to go
> before green", the pace car waves around the cars that chose not to
> pit and are on the tail end of the lead lap, and the pace car picks
> up the leader.
> Three things happen:
> (1) no, the cars getting the wave-around dont have full fuel and new
> tires, but they have their lap back and can hope for another yellow
> before they need to stop.  Its a gamble, and adds a bit of strategy.
> (2) The leader never restarts in the middle of the pack.
> (3) the "almost lap-down" cars are inthe back, out of the way.

Yes I absolutely agree with you here Mike, although, I'm not too sure about
the no pit stop part.  Why does it matter if they pitted or not.   Is it a
trade off like concept; pit or lap? What's reasoning behind that idea?

And wasn't this the way (or something similar) that NASCAR used to do it?  I
don't remember this tailender stuff many years ago like late 70 early 80s.
Can you confirm that Mike?

--

Rob
Q: "What did the redneck say right before he died?"
A: "Hey ya'all watch this!!"

 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Douglas BISHO » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:57:35


Quote:
> I like the way the IRL does it. When the starter signals "one to go before
> green", the pace car waves around the cars that chose not to pit and are
on the
> tail end of the lead lap, and the pace car picks up the leader.
> Three things happen:
> (1) no, the cars getting the wave-around dont have full fuel and new
tires, but
> they have their lap back and can hope for another yellow before they need
to
> stop.  Its a gamble, and adds a bit of strategy.
> (2) The leader never restarts in the middle of the pack.
> (3) the "almost lap-down" cars are inthe back, out of the way.

So then the almost lappers get to fly and try to catch the back of the pack?
I kind of like that as well.  So then why in the hell can't IRL keep more
cars on the lead lap with this plan?
 
 
 

lucky free pass dog pardon rule explained

Post by Robert R Kircher, Jr » Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:09:58

Quote:



>> I like the way the IRL does it. When the starter signals "one to go
>> before green", the pace car waves around the cars that chose not to
>> pit and are on the tail end of the lead lap, and the pace car picks
>> up the leader.
>> Three things happen:
>> (1) no, the cars getting the wave-around dont have full fuel and new
>> tires, but they have their lap back and can hope for another yellow
>> before they need to stop.  Its a gamble, and adds a bit of strategy.
>> (2) The leader never restarts in the middle of the pack.
>> (3) the "almost lap-down" cars are inthe back, out of the way.

> So then the almost lappers get to fly and try to catch the back of
> the pack? I kind of like that as well.  So then why in the hell can't
> IRL keep more cars on the lead lap with this plan?

Real good teams and real bad teams?  I does kind of remind me of NASCAR many
many years ago when RP and DP would have like 50 laps on the rest of the
field. ;-)

--

Rob
Q: "What did the redneck say right before he died?"
A: "Hey ya'all watch this!!"