Sport Today

by **Renaud Dreye** » Sat, 01 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> >Not necessarily.
> >In the last 50 years, Italy won one WC and no European Cup, which is the
> >same mark as England and France and way below the mark achieved by
> >more offensive-minded countries such as Brazil, Argentina or Germany.

> Italy in the past 50 years has a record of 1W, 2F, 2SF, 1QF in 10 WCs,
> while England has 1W, 1SF, 3QF and France has 1W, 2 SF.

France has 1W (98), 3 SF (58, 82, 86). Ciao,

Renaud

by **k..** » Sat, 01 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> So what you're saying is that since the game has a little room for
> abuse, it is fine to abuse it.

Absolutely, if that much stake is placed on winning.

The solution is to get rid of this little room for abuse, not
to "hope" for the teams not to abuse it.

Quote:

> Dont shit where you eat. If football loses its entertainment value,
the
> sport will suffer.

Not a chance. This sort of entertainment value goes in cycles.
Remember the 1990 World Cup? Argentina reached the final by
scoring 2 goals in the knock out stage. It's one of the worst
World Cup ever. Remember the Euro 1996? 7 games in the knockout
stage resulted in 9 goals. It's one of the least entertaining,
negative knock-out stage ever. Has football decreased in
popularity?

Quote:

> Italy wins now but everyone loses in the long run.

This is so short sighted. Italy does NOT represent how
football is played in the world. Do you think the interest
in the Champions League, World Cup 2002, Euro 2004 will
decrease because of Italy's destructive tactics?

Did the interest of 1986 World cup and 1988 European
Championship decrease because Spain employed a similar
strategy in the 1984 European Championship?

Did the interest of 1992 EC and 1994 World Cup decrease
because Argentina employed a similar tactic to reach
the 1990 World Cup final?

Not at all...

Look at the big picture, do you think the Brazilians
and the Argentinians will stop following the World Cup
simply because Italy played a boring game in Euro 2000?
Gimme a break!!!

--
Ed Lor

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by **bordon_is_g..** » Sat, 01 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> >Not necessarily.
> >In the last 50 years, Italy won one WC and no European Cup, which is
the
> >same mark as England and France and way below the mark achieved by
> >more offensive-minded countries such as Brazil, Argentina or Germany.

> Italy in the past 50 years has a record of 1W, 2F, 2SF, 1QF in 10 WCs,
> while England has 1W, 1SF, 3QF and France has 1W, 2 SF.

> The difference is evident.

First, not matter what argument you want to use, there is no arguing
that in the past 50 years, Italy is behind Brasil, Germany and
Argentina, which means that at the most catenaccio made Italy the fourth
force in world soccer.

Second, you are right about England. Italy clearly has the edge over
England in the last 50 years.

Third, we will know if Italy has the edge over France this Sunday. Both
of them won 1 WC and 1 EC over the last 50 years. Italy made it to more
EC finals, but if the point is to prove that the Catenaccio is a winning
strategy, then wins are what we should focus on, aren't they?

Summarizing, catenaccio delivered to Italy nothing better than fourth
place *** in the last 50 years. It does not mean that catenaccio
is a bad strategy - after all, things could be worse if Italy played in
a different manner. In the end, it all depends on how one assess the
quality of the pool of players in the Azzurra. If you agree with me on
Italy having at least players with the same quality as Germany, then
there is something definitively UN-winning on Italy's tactics.

Bordon_is_gone!

Quote:

> Claudio Mantelli

> Remove SPAMMERSF*CK from my email address to reply

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by **Ian** » Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Personally, I think the pathetic performances of Germany vs Portugal and
Yugo vs just about everybody ruins the appreciation of football more than
Italy. At least show up to play.

Quote:

> It's funny you call me ignorant because it is you who is showing his
> close-mindedness.
> Italy is so good at it because that is the philosophy they have adapted
> and mastered over a half-century. It's not like an Italian child comes
> out of his mother's womb knowing how to man-mark. They choose to play
> the game this way. Other countries have different footballing
> philosophies. The can learn to master negative football too if they
> wanted.
> You guys can go on about Italy's 'masterful' defending as much as you
> want, but trust me it is hurting the game.

> > >Look at it this way....if it wasnt for entertainment, football would
> be
> > >like water polo or field hockey. The game is so big because it gives
> > >the fans something special.
> > >If that something is gone, the game is destroyed.
> > >Today's debacle wont change the face of the game, but it does remind
> us
> > >how meaningless all the creative and exciting aspects of the sport
> can
> > >be if you can just win by putting 10 men in your penalty box and
> hoping
> > >for luck on the other end.

> > That shows your ignorance. If it was as easy as that, you would see
> > talentless teams employing this "simpleton's" description of the
> tactic used
> > today. But since
> > it isn't easily reproduced, that doesn't happen.

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> Before you buy.

by **Claudio Mantel** » Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>First, not matter what argument you want to use, there is no arguing
>that in the past 50 years, Italy is behind Brasil, Germany and
>Argentina, which means that at the most catenaccio made Italy the fourth
>force in world soccer.

Put a couple of penalties into the net and the story is different.
The difference in stats is not so huge.

Quote:

>Second, you are right about England. Italy clearly has the edge over
>England in the last 50 years.

And in the first 50 too.

Quote:

>Third, we will know if Italy has the edge over France this Sunday. Both
>of them won 1 WC and 1 EC over the last 50 years.

Maybe Frnace will play better on sunday.
Till now their record is BY FAR different.

Quote:

>Italy made it to more
>EC finals, but if the point is to prove that the Catenaccio is a winning
>strategy, then wins are what we should focus on, aren't they?

You talk about catenaccio and includes everything in it.
Even Sacchi, the man the farthest from catenaccio.

Quote:

>Summarizing, catenaccio delivered to Italy nothing better than fourth
>place *** in the last 50 years. It does not mean that catenaccio
>is a bad strategy - after all, things could be worse if Italy played in
>a different manner. In the end, it all depends on how one assess the
>quality of the pool of players in the Azzurra. If you agree with me on
>Italy having at least players with the same quality as Germany, then
>there is something definitively UN-winning on Italy's tactics.

Penalties...?

Claudio Mantelli

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by **Claudio Mantel** » Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:00:00

On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:35:23 GMT, Renaud Dreyer

Quote:

>> Italy in the past 50 years has a record of 1W, 2F, 2SF, 1QF in 10 WCs,
>> while England has 1W, 1SF, 3QF and France has 1W, 2 SF.

>France has 1W (98), 3 SF (58, 82, 86). Ciao,

> Renaud

My mistake, I took 40 years (10 WC) instead of 50 (12 WC).
Also add 1QF to England.

Claudio Mantelli

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by **Claudio Mantel** » Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>You are absolutley right, nevertheless that does not mean it is good for
>the sport, if they can not sell tickets next time (actually they
>strugled in Belgium this time) then the likes of Italy will be
>playing their great ultradefensive ***being watched by a reluctant
>audince formed by the players families and the stupid FIFA notables,
>that are doing nothing to make more dificult for ultradefensive
>teams to progress in tournaments.

If you won't buy a ticket next time, believe me, we don't care very
much....

Claudio Mantelli

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by **Philippe Torre** » Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> >In the last 50 years, which European countries have the most success?
> >Not counting Euro 2000:

> > champions final final four
> >1. Germany 6 (3EC, 3WC) 5 (2EC, 3WC) 4 (2EC, 2WC)
> >2. Italy 2 (1EC, 1WC) 2 (0EC, 2WC) 3 (2EC, 2WC)
> >3. France 2 (1EC, 1WC) 0 5 (2EC, 3WC)

> Again, look at the German *** (even if you add Italy 34/38).

The figures speak by themselves. Impressive record and i hated them
since 82 and Schumacher but they fell asleep on their laurels a bit
nowadays. The winningness crossed the Rhine recently ;-)

Philippe

by **Ghostbuste** » Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:00:00

So, lets hope that France wins the final, so in the end football
will win :-)

Quote:

> But...Even if they played with 11 the strategy would have been the
> same, defend with 9 men and hope for a goal on a counter attack.
> The game lost big today, with a team that had 70% of the possesion and
> something like 15 shots for and 3 against, going out on a round of
> russian roulette.

by **Rhubar** » Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> >Three contributions to football from Italy:

> >1. Negative tactics

> Learn some tactics before talking about it...

I just travelled across three european countries, read all the media on the
way
and found that I am correct. Unanimously.

Quote:

> >2. Diving

> I saw only Zenden diving

You didn't look very hard. Only Zenden got a yellow for diving, doesn't
mean nobody else was doing it. However, the point is that Italy introduced
the dive to football, historically.

Quote:

> >3. Professional Foul

> About 6 yellow cards for Italy, 3 for Holland.

Historically. I am talking the contribution to football, notr just
this one game....

Quote:

> >Holland gave us total football.

> Holland couldn't score playing 100 minuyes with a player more, and
> being awarded 2 penalties.
> What's more, they controlled the ball but could produce 3-4 clear
> chances against the 2 of Italy.
> That's total waste, not total football.

No, that's football.

Quote:

> Claudio Mantelli

> Remove SPAMMERSF*CK from my email address to reply

by **Rhubar** » Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:00:00

My first time here in this group and I think the argument by some of you
is petty.

Welcome to rec.sport.soccer, you catch on very quickly.

The goal is to win. Isn't it?

The goal is:
1. the two posts and a crossbar at each end of a pitch.
2. What a team is awarded if the the ball goes between those posts
and under that crossbar legally according to the rules of the game.
3. To wind up fans of dull football on this newsgroup.

by **Jan** » Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Peter Phung schreef:

Quote:

> > Luck? They should learn to shot penalties then you would have had your
> > dream Final.

> > > Look at it this way....if it wasnt for entertainment, football would be
> > > like water polo or field hockey. The game is so big because it gives
> > > the fans something special.
> > > If that something is gone, the game is destroyed.
> > > Today's debacle wont change the face of the game, but it does remind us
> > > how meaningless all the creative and exciting aspects of the sport can
> > > be if you can just win by putting 10 men in your penalty box and hoping
> > > for luck on the other end.

> JUST win by putting 10 men in your box and win? You guys talk like that's
> the easist thing to do in the world.

So what? If both football teams would play like Italy did, football
would bore everybody to death, dude. The way the Italians played
Holland, was just disgusting.

Quote:

> And for all you people who keep comparing Italy to Norway, quit it, it's
> idiotic and proves you don't know how to watch football.

Italy is boring, Norway is boring so it;s quite fair to compare both
teams.

Quote:

> Italy showed flair

Hahahahaha!!!!!!!! Flair!!! :)

Quote:

> and patience in their 1st 4 games and outscored their opponents 8-2. Norway
> barely scored a goal and defended desperately vs Slovenia to survive, or so
> they thought. Italy stuggled against the the host nation in a game they were
> 3-1 underdogs. How else are they going to win, not by attacking suicide.

No, by killing football.

by **Rhubar** » Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> Look at the big picture, do you think the Brazilians
> and the Argentinians will stop following the World Cup
> simply because Italy played a boring game in Euro 2000?
> Gimme a break!!!

Italy didn't play a boring game, they played a boring tournament.
If spoil tactics become successful, they it will be necessary for
a "can't beat 'em then join 'em" attitude to emerge. It won't just
be those horrible Italians, it will be everyone - as has happened
with the cheating and diving. The game will go downhill.

Quote:

> --
> Ed Lor

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

by **Aqua Di Gi** » Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>Personally, I think the pathetic performances of Germany vs Portugal and
>Yugo vs just about everybody ruins the appreciation of football more than
>Italy. At least show up to play.

I agree.

Quote:

>> It's funny you call me ignorant because it is you who is showing his
>> close-mindedness.
>> Italy is so good at it because that is the philosophy they have adapted
>> and mastered over a half-century. It's not like an Italian child comes

Yeah, so what!

Quote:

>> out of his mother's womb knowing how to man-mark. They choose to play
>> the game this way.

Again, so what!

Quote:

> Other countries have different footballing
>> philosophies. The can learn to master negative football too if they
>> wanted.

Thats a matter of opinion. You say its negative. I don't think so.

Quote:

>> You guys can go on about Italy's 'masterful' defending as much as you
>> want, but trust me it is hurting the game.

According to whom? WHO, in their right mind would expect a team to "open"
themselves up just to lose in that circumstance? What kind of stupidity is
that?

by **Aqua Di Gi** » Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>> >> The goal is to win and get to the final. It doesn't have to be
>> >> pretty. Offense sells tickets but Defense wins titles.

>> >Not necessarily.
>> >In the last 50 years, Italy won one WC and no European Cup,

>> No shit huh? Last time I checked 1968 was less than 50 years ago.
>That makes Italy even with France with 1WC and 1 EC.

In the last 20 years Italy is even with ALL the other countries, except
Germany who has 2 EC's and 1 WC. Brazil - 1 WC, Argentina 1 - WC, France 1 -
WC, Italy 1 - WC.

Quote:

>> >which is the
>> >same mark as England and France and way below the mark achieved by
>> >more offensive-minded countries such as Brazil, Argentina or Germany.
>> In terms of WC records in that period Italy is right up there,
>>finishing
>> with One WC win, Two second place finished, One forth, One Third, and
>on
>> 5th. Not too bad if you ask me. Much better than most others! Head to
>head,
>> Italy is better than all three of those countries in that same time
>span.
>Brazil: 4 WC / 2 vice-WC

We were talking about the last 20 years...you can make up whatever number
you like, but soccer has taken a major evolutionary step in the last 20
years. No longer are teams playing with just 11 men, but now are playing as
a unit. Brazil's style is no longer effective as we saw in the last WC, as a
matter of fact it is useless, as they used a defensive minded European style
to win in 94 and were heavily criticized for it, but Parreria had the frame
of mind to know better and realize what they would have to do to win, and
that is what he did. In the last 20 years:

Germany - One WC, TWO 2nd place
Italy - One WC, One 2nd place, One 3rd, One fifth
Argentina One WC, One 2nd
Brazil - One WC, One 2nd place finish

Quote:

>No further words.

Good, get lost.

Aqua
--
Aqua
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Ruis *** theories:

Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:22 AM

I happen to love Italian soccer.
followed by:
If you like I can list all of the cheating, *** and other
questionable ethics in Italian football.
Or did you have special seminars on diving, cheating and other "fair play"
technique before the start of Euro 2000?
Yes, and your lucky that UEFA protects your ass. Otherwise Italy 1
Turkey 1.
At least, we don't cheat half as much as you do.

-----------
Sidd's love for the Azzurri:

Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Date: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: Kick some butt, England!

"Romania will knock Italy out. My prediction."
"Italy can easily be beaten by Romania..."

Quote:

> Easily???
"Yes."
> Are you sure, sidd?
"Yes."
> What are you relying on?

"Toldo."
"He makes terrible mistakes"

Quote:

>And to be fair to you Sidd, you did say this:

But honestly, Italy can win if they play their perfect
professional game,

Quote:

>but followed up with this:

which I somehow doubt. They havent
been good against Turkey and Sweden.

Sport Today

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