Best midfielder -- RSILV -- a lesson

Best midfielder -- RSILV -- a lesson

Post by Riffste » Sat, 28 Dec 1996 04:00:00


Conerning your once again insufferable knowledge of the sport of soccer.

The #10 position CAN be considered a "midfield" position or it might
be considered an "attacker" position. I prefer to see it as midfield
because in a 4-4-2 only the #9 and #11 players are true strikers.

Since most Italian teams play a 4-4-2 (or a modification of it like
a 4-3-1-2) I would classify most players in Italy who wear the #10
as midfielders, albeit attacking midfielders.

Possibly the #10 position can be referred to as a "mezzapunta" as they
say in Italy. That is, a "half-striker". However it still follows that
a mezzapunta is really a midfielder in as much as a #10 is a "link"
player and I think the real definition of midfielder is that they are
a link between defense and offense.

In a 4-3-3 though, a #10 can be defined an attacker or he may not be,
depending if the #7 position is a wing (now almost a dying position in
some places) or if the #7 is playing at wing halfback. It also depends
on where the team places the #8 player who is traditionally the
orchestrator of the offense. When Platini played for Juve and France
he was given a lot of freedom to play where he saw fit (okay, a little
less freedom in Italy!). As a result he usually played just behind
the forwards as a mezzapunta almost. But he still was a linking player
who scored goals thanks to his great skills and incredible free kick
style. Not because he was a forward. Capisci?

Giresse was more of a true midfielder for France, but the truly great
players like Pele, Maradona and Michel Platini played the #10 position
so they could lend their skills where it was needed. I still think of
them as midfielders, even though we (or maybe just you RSILV) all
remember their goals more than their passes.

Riff"Come back when you want another spanking"Ster

 
 
 

Best midfielder -- RSILV -- a lesson

Post by Nic » Tue, 31 Dec 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>The #10 position CAN be considered a "midfield" position or it might
>be considered an "attacker" position. I prefer to see it as midfield
>because in a 4-4-2 only the #9 and #11 players are true strikers.

This isn't true, traditionally, this is the 4-4-2 numbering system:

       10         9            

        8
11              7
        4

3       5       2
        6

Numbers 9 and 10 are forwards (punte), 7 and 11 the wingers
(ale/tonrnanti), 4 and 8 the defensive and offensive midfielders
respectively, 2 and 3 the fullbacks (terzini) and finally 5 and 6 the
stopper and sweeper.

Confirmation of this can be obtained by looking at the order in which
papers print the formations for teams.

Let's take a well-known team like Milan and give an example of a
lineup that might get printed in the paper:

Rossi, Panucci, Maldini, Desailly, Costacurta, Baresi, Eranio,
Albertini, Dugarry, Blomquist, Weah.  

You will see that the order of the players represents a number on the
pitch - Rossi, #1; Panucci, #2; Maldini #3; Desailly #4; Costacurta
#5; etc, etc.

Quote:
>In a 4-3-3 though, a #10 can be defined an attacker or he may not be,
>depending if the #7 position is a wing (now almost a dying position in
>some places) or if the #7 is playing at wing halfback. It also depends
>on where the team places the #8 player who is traditionally the
>orchestrator of the offense.

This is how the numbering system works for 4-3-3's in Italy:

11      9       7         Signori     Casiraghi   Rambaudi      

10      4       8         Nedved    Okon        Fuser

3       5       2       Favalli     Chamot     Nesta     Negro
        6

I've put Lazio's usual line-up and the order that it appears in the
paper you can see that this is the correct.

Marchegiani, Negro, Favalli, Okon, Chamot, Nesta, Rambaudi, Fuser,
Casiraghi, Nedved, Signori.

Now that players are starting to pick their own numbers permanently,
the role of a particular number is becoming less and less relevant.

One thing that people must realise is (as was mentioned somewhere else
in this thread) that  #10's like Platini, Maradona and Pele
(Mattheus?) were so special that they made the number special in
itself. So regardless whether you have a rigid numbering system like
in Italy they will always be in a special category of their own.
I don't think there is a "real #10" as much as there is a great
offensive midfielder like Albertini or a great leftback like Maldini.

Nick

 
 
 

Best midfielder -- RSILV -- a lesson

Post by Riffste » Wed, 01 Jan 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


> >The #10 position CAN be considered a "midfield" position or it might
> >be considered an "attacker" position. I prefer to see it as midfield
> >because in a 4-4-2 only the #9 and #11 players are true strikers.

> This isn't true, traditionally, this is the 4-4-2 numbering system:

>        10         9

>         8
> 11              7
>         4

> 3       5       2
>         6

> Numbers 9 and 10 are forwards (punte), 7 and 11 the wingers
> (ale/tonrnanti), 4 and 8 the defensive and offensive midfielders
> respectively, 2 and 3 the fullbacks (terzini) and finally 5 and 6 the
> stopper and sweeper.

> Confirmation of this can be obtained by looking at the order in which
> papers print the formations for teams.

> Let's take a well-known team like Milan and give an example of a
> lineup that might get printed in the paper:

> Rossi, Panucci, Maldini, Desailly, Costacurta, Baresi, Eranio,
> Albertini, Dugarry, Blomquist, Weah.

> You will see that the order of the players represents a number on the
> pitch - Rossi, #1; Panucci, #2; Maldini #3; Desailly #4; Costacurta
> #5; etc, etc.

> >In a 4-3-3 though, a #10 can be defined an attacker or he may not be,
> >depending if the #7 position is a wing (now almost a dying position in
> >some places) or if the #7 is playing at wing halfback. It also depends
> >on where the team places the #8 player who is traditionally the
> >orchestrator of the offense.

> This is how the numbering system works for 4-3-3's in Italy:

> 11      9       7         Signori     Casiraghi   Rambaudi

> 10      4       8         Nedved    Okon        Fuser

> 3       5       2       Favalli     Chamot     Nesta     Negro
>         6

> I've put Lazio's usual line-up and the order that it appears in the
> paper you can see that this is the correct.

> Marchegiani, Negro, Favalli, Okon, Chamot, Nesta, Rambaudi, Fuser,
> Casiraghi, Nedved, Signori.

> Now that players are starting to pick their own numbers permanently,
> the role of a particular number is becoming less and less relevant.

> One thing that people must realise is (as was mentioned somewhere else
> in this thread) that  #10's like Platini, Maradona and Pele
> (Mattheus?) were so special that they made the number special in
> itself. So regardless whether you have a rigid numbering system like
> in Italy they will always be in a special category of their own.
> I don't think there is a "real #10" as much as there is a great
> offensive midfielder like Albertini or a great leftback like Maldini.

> Nick

A good post. However my main point is the last one you addressed.

Pele and Maradona were NOT forwards or strikers in the sense of the
term and that was the crux of my argument. I objected to Rsilv's
riduculing of including Pele and Maradona as the greatest midfielders
ever. As #10's neither was a punta, they would have been left stranded
as such. It made sense for their great talents to start behind the
forwards and surge forward. It also enabled them to utilize their
great skills to displace defenses and create space. This is much
harder to do from the forward spot although strikers may do this by
coming back and then inviting the midfield links to run through the
areas they have vacated.

The only Word Cup in which Pele was a true forward (and therefore at
that time not a candidate for greatest midfielder ever) was the
'58 Cup. At that time, the young Pele departed as a pure striker.

However, by 1966, Pele was organizing attacks and had dropped back
to where he could be considered a midfielder. Maradona never was
a pure forward either as he needed space to make his incredible runs
from the back. Also, his beautiful through passing ability could be
utilized from the back (Who can forget the great pass he made
that beat Brasil in WC '90!)

And the order of printed formations means less and less nowadays as
players adopt non-traditional numbers for their positions. However
I do agree #7 and #11 are wing players -- however many teams played
(once upon a time) these positions as pure attackers and not the wing
halfs that are almost always today.

Riff"Point taken, point made"Ster

 
 
 

Best midfielder -- RSILV -- a lesson

Post by Magnus Gr?n Str?mst » Thu, 02 Jan 1997 04:00:00

Quote:
>Marchegiani, Negro, Favalli, Okon, Chamot, Nesta, Rambaudi, Fuser,
>Casiraghi, Nedved, Signori.

I thought they sold Negro off to Inter? Could anyone please sort this out? He and Favalli are both
extremly promising players. I'd love to see Favalli at Highbury.

Magnus

 
 
 

Best midfielder -- RSILV -- a lesson

Post by rsil » Thu, 02 Jan 1997 04:00:00

you talk and did not say anything ..... a midle feulder can play with any
number .... the numbers does not implay that his is playing midle or not .
I point that Platini was not a midlefeulder because his caracterist as a
player. check it out and see if you find Platini in the defense position
trying to take the ball from a player (in his defense side) Never. Platini
was a gifted player that most coachs give a freedon to play everever he
wants. now you lerned.
rsilv



Quote:
> Conerning your once again insufferable knowledge of the sport of soccer.

> The #10 position CAN be considered a "midfield" position or it might
> be considered an "attacker" position. I prefer to see it as midfield
> because in a 4-4-2 only the #9 and #11 players are true strikers.

> Since most Italian teams play a 4-4-2 (or a modification of it like
> a 4-3-1-2) I would classify most players in Italy who wear the #10
> as midfielders, albeit attacking midfielders.

> Possibly the #10 position can be referred to as a "mezzapunta" as they
> say in Italy. That is, a "half-striker". However it still follows that
> a mezzapunta is really a midfielder in as much as a #10 is a "link"
> player and I think the real definition of midfielder is that they are
> a link between defense and offense.

> In a 4-3-3 though, a #10 can be defined an attacker or he may not be,
> depending if the #7 position is a wing (now almost a dying position in
> some places) or if the #7 is playing at wing halfback. It also depends
> on where the team places the #8 player who is traditionally the
> orchestrator of the offense. When Platini played for Juve and France
> he was given a lot of freedom to play where he saw fit (okay, a little
> less freedom in Italy!). As a result he usually played just behind
> the forwards as a mezzapunta almost. But he still was a linking player
> who scored goals thanks to his great skills and incredible free kick
> style. Not because he was a forward. Capisci?

> Giresse was more of a true midfielder for France, but the truly great
> players like Pele, Maradona and Michel Platini played the #10 position
> so they could lend their skills where it was needed. I still think of
> them as midfielders, even though we (or maybe just you RSILV) all
> remember their goals more than their passes.

> Riff"Come back when you want another spanking"Ster

 
 
 

Best midfielder -- RSILV -- a lesson

Post by Riffste » Thu, 02 Jan 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> you talk and did not say anything ..... a midle feulder can play with any
> number .... the numbers does not implay that his is playing midle or not .
> I point that Platini was not a midlefeulder because his caracterist as a
> player. check it out and see if you find Platini in the defense position
> trying to take the ball from a player (in his defense side) Never. Platini
> was a gifted player that most coachs give a freedon to play everever he
> wants. now you lerned.
> rsilv

Again with the ridiculous "you suck" type of statements. Your style
is tedious but I will condescend to respond to it.

A midfielder is not just one kind of player. There are MANY different
kind of midfielders, there are just not workers (donkeys). Midfielders
can and do play up in attack. Platini was an attacking midfielder or
possibly what is called a mezzapunta.

Marcel DeSailly is the exact opposite. He has been primarily a defensive
link
at the back of the Milan midfield and he is rarely up in attack.

Javier Zanetti is somewhat in between. He can play back and he
definitely
can go forward, but he is primarily a ball possession player who starts
attacks.

Please make an argument instead of your constant negative
(and rather insecure) attacks.  I understand that english is
not your first language and I sympathize as I know my Italian
sometimes suffers in comparison to natives. But vocabulary and
syntax do not determine whether you make a point or whether you
are simply being insulting.

Riff"Get with the program Sam"Ster

 
 
 

Best midfielder -- RSILV -- a lesson

Post by Irineu Carvalh » Fri, 03 Jan 1997 04:00:00

My dear Riffster,
don't waste your toime with Rsilv. Someone that argues that platini is not a
midfielder does not deserve our/your attention. I guess he is 15 and never
really saw Platini play.

                                Irineu

 
 
 

Best midfielder -- RSILV -- a lesson

Post by JWil » Sun, 05 Jan 1997 04:00:00


:My dear Riffster,
:don't waste your toime with Rsilv. Someone that argues that platini is
not a
:midfielder does not deserve our/your attention. I guess he is 15 and
never
:really saw Platini play.

:                               Irineu

As someone who is familiar with Rsilv from another football forum, I'd
would
strongly second the suggestion not to waste any time arguing with him.  
His basic view of the world can be summed up as follows:

1.  The only worthwhile players in the world are Brazilian.  All others
     are crap.  (Sorry Irineu, but he's a fellow Brazilian)

2.  He's always right.

3.  Everyone else is an idiot.

JW

 
 
 

Best midfielder -- RSILV -- a lesson

Post by Riffste » Sun, 05 Jan 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


> :My dear Riffster,
> :don't waste your toime with Rsilv. Someone that argues that platini is
> not a
> :midfielder does not deserve our/your attention. I guess he is 15 and
> never
> :really saw Platini play.

> :                               Irineu

> As someone who is familiar with Rsilv from another football forum, I'd
> would
> strongly second the suggestion not to waste any time arguing with him.
> His basic view of the world can be summed up as follows:

> 1.  The only worthwhile players in the world are Brazilian.  All others
>      are crap.  (Sorry Irineu, but he's a fellow Brazilian)

> 2.  He's always right.

> 3.  Everyone else is an idiot.

> JW

Thank you Irineu and JWilk5. I unfortunately have come to the same
opinion. I am of Brasilian extraction myself and do not deny that
there are some (!!!) pretty good players in "them thar parts."
However that shouldn't get in the way of rational thought.

I am ending any attempt to converse with him due in part to your
suggestions, but also because RSilv has not directed one response
back to me. I understand he may be hesitating, not because of my
great slashing wit ;-) but maybe because his english is not quite
at the comfort level.

Pity his mind isn't much better.

Riff"There I feel much better now Doctor"Ster