Sport Today

I think you misunderstand the sentiments of club supporters.  I don't root
for Milan because they're "italian".  I root for Milan because I was born
there and that's the first team I ever followed.  I could care less if they
suit up 11 foreigners or 11 Martians.  As long as they wear the red and
black stripes it doesn't matter what's underneath.   Milan has been more
successful in Europe than other italian clubs because they have garnered
the best foreign talent over the years.  
Milan's foreign legion includes legends
like   Schiaffino, Sani, Nordhal, Gren, Liedholm, Altafini, Sormani,
Hamrin, Angelillo, Amarildo, even Jimmy Greaves (for 9 or 10 games),
in addition to the more recent Wilkins, Hateley, Gullit, Papin, van Basten,
Rijkaard, Savicevic, Boban, Desailly, et al...

It doesn't matter to us where these people came from...what matters is that
for a while, however brief, they wore the jersey rossonero.

If you're interested in purely nationalistic arguments, then you should
look at national teams, not club teams.  And surely you're not going to
compare the dutch palmares with the italian one, are you??

The dutch "ruled" Europe for a brief period from 1972-1975 coinciding
with the apex of Cruyff's Clockwork Orange team and perhaps in 1988
when they won their Euro championship..even if Ajax beats
Milan the dutch will no more rule Europe than the italians did last year
when Milan won EC1 and Inter won EC3 (and Parma lost the final of EC2)
and the italian national team finished second at the world cup.

The dutch school keeps producing tremendous individual players...too bad
that no-one can mesh them into a really successful (in the sense of
winning trophies) team.

You're welcome.
Loris

I agree that you cannot compare the Italian national team's performances in
history with those of the Dutch, but........your statements about the Dutch
ruling Europe is not correct at all.
It wasn't from 72 to 75.  And you're forgetting quite a lot other 'trophies'.

In 1969 Ajax (with a very young Cruijff) reached the finals and were beaten by
... AC Milan (4-1).
In 1970 Feyenoord (Rotterdam) was the best team in Europe. In the EC1-final
Celtic was beaten by 2-1.
In 1971 Ajax was the best. Final against Panathinaikos: 2-0.
In 1972 Ajax was again the best. Final against Internazional: 2-0.
In 1973 Ajax won again in the final. Against Juvenstus: 1-0.
In 1974 Feyenoord won the EC3 Cup and the Dutch national team was the best in
the World Cup, only losing in the final against the lucky Germans with the
best keeper in the world, Sepp Maier.
In 1978 the Dutch national team again was the best team at the world cup.
Without Cruijff, who refused ro play in Argentina, the reached the final,
played better then the home-team, Rensenbrink hit the post in the final minute
(it was 1-1 at that moment). In overtime the Dutch collapsed after an offside
goal: 3-1.
BTW, in the semi-final Holland overclassed Italy. After a good Italian first
half (1-0), two supergoals by Ernie Brandts and Arie Haan made it 2-1. The
Dutch played with the Italians after Haan's goal.
After '78 Dutch soccer made a step back.
But even in that bad period several teams made it into one of the European
finals.
f.i:  FC Twente in the EC3 Cup. After beating Juventus. They lost in the final
agians Borussia Monchengladbach, at that time one of the best teams in Europe.
AZ'67 also made it into the EC3 Cup. And lost against Ipswich Town, which
needed two Dutch players (Thijssen and Muhren) to beat the Dutch team.
In '88 there was a revival with Ajax winning the EC2 Cup and PSV winning the
EC1 Cup. The Dutch national team became European champion in Germany.
After that Ajax reached three more European finals: EC2 (lost against KV
Mechelen, woth three Dutch players and a Dutch coach). And the EC3 (winning
against Genua, after beating Torino in the semifinals). And this year the EC1
(which they will lose, I think. Nobody can beat AC milan three times in one
year I'm afraid.)

It is true that the Dutch keep producing tremendous individual players, but
cannot get the national team to win important trophies.
But in 1974 and 1978 they had bad-luck that the home-teams were second-best.
Playing in their own country those teams just had that little bit extra to
win.
In 1990 Holland had the best players of the World Cup. But they lost because
of a lack of team-spirit ( yes you are right).
In 1994 Holland was the best team Brazil met on the way to the World Cup as
the Brasilians stars stated themselves after the tournament.

But you're right, you cannot compare those things with the lists of Italy,
Germany, Brazil or Argentina.
But for a small country Holland is doing well I guess. And don;t forget: AC
Milan played the best games with the three Dutch guys as the directors.

And: So far Dutch clubteams have won five EC1 Cups (third place in Europe),
one EC2 Cup and three EC3 Cups. Not bad at all if you compare that with f.i.
Belgium (just as small as Holland). Belgium has only one European Cup (EC2
by Anderlecht, at that time called Nederlecht, because of the fact that
they used six Dutch players).
And seven*** times a Dutch clubteam reached one of the European finals
(fourth place in Europe).

You're welcome too.

24th of may: AC Milan - Ajax 0-0 (Milan wins the cup by penalties)

Recently, I had a chance to watch some of the games from WC'74.  It is true
that Dutch team was very impressive but, in my humble opinion, the best team
during that tournament was... Poland.

Similarly to Netherlans, Poland lost only one game: semi-final to Germany
after a questionable goal (some people say it was an off-side).

***********************
*                     *  

*                     *
******************************************************
*                                                    *
*     The only game.            O      O             *
*                              <^\    /^>            *
*     Forza Milan               \\    //             *
*     Forza Italia              /o\   \\             *
******************************************************

Okay, I agree, but only for a part. The final in '74 should have been between
Holland and Poland.
Lato, Szarmach, Deyna and keeper Tomaszewksi were really between the best
players of the tournament. And Poland played a super-match in the
qualification at Wembley against England (1-1 in '73).
About the semi-final Germany - Poland, I think in Frankfurt, that game should
not have been played at all. The ground was terrible after 24 hours of rain.
The team which had the most attacking attititude, the Polish, was in a
disadvantage. They also lost because of those circumstances.
 And the Germans were again lucky, like in their opening match against Chili
(1-0 after a lucky strike from Breitner) and their match against Jugoslavia
(Berti Vogts was allowed to use everything against the best player of the
Jugoslavian team, the ref never gave freekicks for Vogts' attacks from the
back).
The German team in '74 was a strong team, but not the best.
I think it should be:
1. Holland
2. Poland
3. Brazil
4. Germany

You're welcome.

24th of may: Ajax - AC Milan 0-0.

               ^^^^^^

If this is evidence of a "trophy" then Milan has a lot more trophies than
I've been counting including the 0-2 trophy to Velez Sarsfield this year
and the 2-3 trophy to Sao Paolo the year before!

This is YOUR opinion.  I watched the game at Madison Square Garden on an
enormous screen and I thought Italy was the better team. Those two shots
were LUCKY.  One was an absurd bomb from 35 meters.  99 times out of 100
those shots go way over the bar.  Also, one of the goals came on a free kick,
or as a direct consequence of a free kick. That free kick came off a ridiculous
call on a a perfectly good tackle from Benetti.  The reason the italians gave
up after Haan's goal is that they needed a victory to advance, a tie would
have sent the Dutch through.  At the end of that game I felt cheated, so
your statement that Holland overclassed Italy reflects your opinion. Now
you've heard another opinion on that game.

I think Anderlecht won one more EC2 cup and didn't Mecheln win one too?
But you're point is well taken, the Dutch have had a more successful
football history than their Belgian neighbors.  However, given the
players the Dutch produced I would have expected a bit more as far as winning
international tournaments.  The fact that they haven't can partly be blamed
on themselves and the *** habit of their players bickering either with
themselves or their federation (i.e., Cruyff and Gullit...)

Should this happen I will drink MANY Heinekens or Grolsches in your honor.

Cheers,
Loris

In fairness, I think the original poster mentioned the 69 final as illustration
of when the Dutch golden period started, not as a forgotten trophy ;-).

Apart from the 70-73 days, though, all we can point to is one brilliant year
(1988) and some small change (3 UEFA, 1 CWC, and a few finals).  Still comparable
to what the German clubs have to show ;-).

True, but it wasn't the first long-distance shot the Dutch got in that
tournament.  There was one (by Rep) in the match with Scotland, one nice
effort, also by Haan, in the previous game against West Germany, and the
same Haan also scored a long-distance effort in the warm-up game in Vienna
against Austria a few weeks before the World Cup.  I think the odds for
that particular shot by Haan were slightly better than 1 in a 100.

It was a tight game.  Italy would have been just as worthy a finalist as the
Dutch (given their first round group performance, perhaps worthier, but then,
you were compensated for that in 1982 ;-).

Yes, and Anderlecht also has a UEFA Cup.

The truth hurts... :-(.

Better Grolsch.  My tip is an Ajax win on penalties, though, after a scoreless
120 minutes.  So far, Dutch teams have only lost one (out of six) Champions
Cup finals in which they competed.  That was the first, and that was
Ajax-Milan...

Cheers,
Karel
--
-- Karel Stokkermans, RISC-Linz, Schloss Hagenberg, Austria, Europa

"O hoe vergeefs / des doelmans hand / zich strekte naar de bal    [  21-6-88,  ]
 die 'een minuut / voor tijd de Duitse / doellijn kruiste..."     [ J. Deelder ]

You're right with the second one. Anderlecht won only one E Cup. Mechelen won
in a final against Ajax. So that is two.

And about the Beers. Heineken and Grolsch aren't the best Dutch beers. Brand's
Up is.

Loris is right in both statements.  Anderlecht won the CWC in 1976 and 1978
(and lost the 1977 final). They also won the UEFA Cup in 1983.  In addition,
they lost the 1984 final, Brugge lost a Champions Cup and a UEFA Cup final,
both against Liverpool, and Standard Liege and Antwerp lost Cup Winners Cup
finals.  Belgium didn't do quite as poorly as France ;-).

Well, that would be a bit hard to get in Atlanta, Georgia, I suppose.

Cheers,
Karel
--
-- Karel Stokkermans, RISC-Linz, Schloss Hagenberg, Austria, Europa

"O hoe vergeefs / des doelmans hand / zich strekte naar de bal    [  21-6-88,  ]
 die 'een minuut / voor tijd de Duitse / doellijn kruiste..."     [ J. Deelder ]

It would be fair if you also mentioned that the Italian goal was an
own goal by Dutch player Ernie Brandts. So, in your vision there were
three absurd goals, but all scored by the Dutch. Surely a team that
scores three more goals than the opponent deserves to win....

Walrus

Who says Brand is the best Dutch beer ???
There'a only one beer which can hold the term "best beer" and ofcourse it's
Hieneken, and indeed you can buy it in Atlanta

Who says Brand is Hollands best beer ??
There can only one beer hold that title and ofcourse it's Heineken (Freddies Original),
and indeed you van but it in Atlanta Georgia.

        Haan scored a similar goal once against Germany. And Brandts scored an
        own goal first. I don't know if there was a better team, both deserved
        to advance.

        Please, no penalties! And if you care for your health, skip the
        Heinekes.

        Kees

        PS. Ajax 2 - Milan 1. Just my 2c.

  > > And about the Beers. Heineken and Grolsch aren't the best Dutch beers. Brand's

I have had Brand beer in Baltimore, Md, so I wouldn't be surprised if Loris'
fridge is filled with it. But then, Dutch beer is like Dutch football: both
are good, excellent at times, but over the long run not quite there with the
best in the world.

Gustaaf (Ajax, Jever, Pilsner Urquell)

(the REAL Budweiser from Ceske Budejovice omitted from the above list due to
serious potential misunderstandings)

Except that Bettega was sliding with Brandts. If Brandts wasn't there or
didn't touch the ball, Bettega would have put it in. As a matter of fact,
the big board gave original credit to Bettega for the goal, it was only
on replay that it became clear that Brandts had touched the ball first.

And since you're in a reminiscing mode.  Italy did score a second goal
late in the game which was disallowed for a charge on a goalie.  A non-
italian friend I was watching the game with said that by english standards
that was a perfectly fine goal...not that it would have done Italy any
good, of course, since a tie would have put the Dutch through.

Loris

.
.

Ajax won in '87

Genoa in the semis, Torino in the final.

--
Bob Pronk           | Alas,***ie, we hardly knew ye.

Mississauga, Canada |   is switching the wingers!)