What Let Italy Down

What Let Italy Down

Post by Bruce Scott T » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 02:31:32


Note: there is nothing wrong with Catenaccio, but the team playing it
has to remember that they have to keep the initiative...

Italy were playing this match to perfection, using the catenaccio not
just to sit back but _to score goals_, and they were getting basically
all the goal chances.  But they must have got tired because after about
60' they started to get lazy, not covering each other while defending,
pulling shirttails instead of boxing out opposing players, forgetting to
launch believable counter strokes.

They started to unravel, and the defense stopped being a real tactic and
more and more a means of desperation.  Korea's goal was a punishment of
an awful mistake, but when you sit back _and forget to counterstrike_ as
in the last 15 minutes, you set yourself up because you're on your heels
and not your toes.

It's just tough luck... Korea executed their game plan better than
Italy did theirs, and they progress therefore deservedly.

--
cu,
Bruce

drift wave turbulence:  http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/

 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by Nick Simoncin » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 02:57:54

Good points, but what if the Tommasi goal had not been disallowed?...


Quote:

>Note: there is nothing wrong with Catenaccio, but the team playing it
>has to remember that they have to keep the initiative...

>Italy were playing this match to perfection, using the catenaccio not
>just to sit back but _to score goals_, and they were getting basically
>all the goal chances.  But they must have got tired because after about
>60' they started to get lazy, not covering each other while defending,
>pulling shirttails instead of boxing out opposing players, forgetting to
>launch believable counter strokes.

>They started to unravel, and the defense stopped being a real tactic and
>more and more a means of desperation.  Korea's goal was a punishment of
>an awful mistake, but when you sit back _and forget to counterstrike_ as
>in the last 15 minutes, you set yourself up because you're on your heels
>and not your toes.

>It's just tough luck... Korea executed their game plan better than
>Italy did theirs, and they progress therefore deservedly.


 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by David Tiemrot » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 03:43:53

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:57:54 +0200, Nick Simoncini

Quote:

>Good points, but what if the Tommasi goal had not been disallowed?...

The keeper would have saved it. Easily.

David.
Well perhaps not, but prove me wrong...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if crimefighters fight crime and firefighters fight fire, what
do freedom fighters fight? -- George Carlin
------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by Cathi Hink » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 04:07:14

Quote:

> It's just tough luck...

A little bit too often, I think ...

Bye,
Cathi.

--
A theologian is like a blind man in a dark room searching for a
black cat which isn't there - and finding it!

 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by EPK » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 05:38:07


Quote:

> > It's just tough luck...

> A little bit too often, I think ...

> Bye,
> Cathi.

Which, I begin to suspect, is what is really drawing the wrath of the Italy
fans.  Clutching at thin threads to find blame in this match, several people
are making references to the three prior and clearly wrong offsides calls.
People, although those calls were wrong, they didn't affect this match!
Some of the calls were marginal, but not clearly wrong, but the built-up
annoyance at prior mistakes has distorted the feeling of injury.
 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by Futbolmetri » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:16:57


Quote:



> Which, I begin to suspect, is what is really drawing the wrath of the
Italy
> fans.  Clutching at thin threads to find blame in this match, several
people
> are making references to the three prior and clearly wrong offsides calls.

Believe it or not, most Italians believe
that we have had 4 goals disallowed for inexistent offsides/fould in
the group phase. They also include Montella's goal against
Mexico.

Quote:
> People, although those calls were wrong, they didn't affect this match!
> Some of the calls were marginal, but not clearly wrong, but the built-up
> annoyance at prior mistakes has distorted the feeling of injury.

I think that's an excellent point. If you read the Italian press
since the beginning of the WC, I'd say that more than 50% of the
"commentating" space is devoted to FIFA *** theories,
"refereeing scandals", etc.
This is direct consequence of the systematic whining you get week
in and week out in Serie A. Now that everybody can join into
a unified, national whinefest, with no internal battles between
Roma and Juve fans, Juve and Inter fans, or what not, this
is what you get.

Daniele

 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by Futbolmetri » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:23:22



Quote:

> Note: there is nothing wrong with Catenaccio, but the team playing it
> has to remember that they have to keep the initiative...

> Italy were playing this match to perfection, using the catenaccio not
> just to sit back but _to score goals_, and they were getting basically
> all the goal chances.  But they must have got tired because after about
> 60' they started to get lazy, not covering each other while defending,
> pulling shirttails instead of boxing out opposing players, forgetting to
> launch believable counter strokes.

My impression (I've seen the game just once, up to now)
is that Italy was in perfect control of the game
throughout the entire second half, until Panucci's mistake.
What let Italy down is, as you say poor execution. If you play
this kind of game, you have to a) finalize your chances and b) make no
mistakes whatsoever at the back.

That's the problem with the catenaccio system. Italy was "sitting"
on its 1-0 lead, but it was doing so with complete ease and comfort.
However, one mistake is enough to make all your efforts in vain.

Daniele

 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by el corazon ardient » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:41:48

<...>
: This is direct consequence of the systematic whining you get week
: in and week out in Serie A. Now that everybody can join into
: a unified, national whinefest, with no internal battles between
: Roma and Juve fans, Juve and Inter fans, or what not, this
: is what you get.
:
: Daniele

They can howl, *** and moan all they want. They aren't
going to make a 1-1-2 WC into something other than an embarassing
performance.

RstJ
all will be forgotten by Fri.

 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by Raymond Chuan » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:46:20



Quote:
> Italy were playing this match to perfection, using the catenaccio not
> just to sit back but _to score goals_, and they were getting basically
> all the goal chances.  But they must have got tired because after about
> 60' they started to get lazy, not covering each other while defending,
> pulling shirttails instead of boxing out opposing players, forgetting to
> launch believable counter strokes.

Having seen the game live on ESPN2, the announcers noticed that the South
Koreans' ability to constantly run up and down the field was quickly tiring
out the Italians in the second half of the game. The Italians had several
"gimme" chances to score in the second half and capitolized on ZERO of them,
showing that the Italian side was out of gas by 85' of the game.

--
Raymond Chuang
Mountain View, California USA

 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by Michael Sulliv » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:13:32

Quote:






> > Which, I begin to suspect, is what is really drawing the wrath of the
> Italy
> > fans.  Clutching at thin threads to find blame in this match, several
> people
> > are making references to the three prior and clearly wrong offsides calls.
> Believe it or not, most Italians believe
> that we have had 4 goals disallowed for inexistent offsides/fould in
> the group phase. They also include Montella's goal against
> Mexico.

mmm.  I've seen about that many offside calls that pulled back goals for
italy.  I thought 2 were clearly correct, and 2 were very close (one in
the Mexico game, one against S. Korea).  I suspect the Korean one was
wrong, *but* -- it's not at all clear it would have been a goal had the
call not been made.  It went in after the ball was whistled dead.

No way were these all "nonexistant" offsides calls.  They were
close/questionable at best.  None were clearly incorrect from my vantage
point, even with the benefit of instant replay.

Michael

 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by Marcus Gustavsso » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:42:20

Quote:



>> Italy were playing this match to perfection, using the catenaccio not
>> just to sit back but _to score goals_, and they were getting basically
>> all the goal chances.  But they must have got tired because after about
>> 60' they started to get lazy, not covering each other while defending,
>> pulling shirttails instead of boxing out opposing players, forgetting to
>> launch believable counter strokes.
> Having seen the game live on ESPN2, the announcers noticed that the South
> Koreans' ability to constantly run up and down the field was quickly tiring
> out the Italians in the second half of the game. The Italians had several
> "gimme" chances to score in the second half and capitolized on ZERO of them,
> showing that the Italian side was out of gas by 85' of the game.

They played very well and had the South Koreans on the fork. For a long while
the Koreans had almost as little movement as the Brazilians. Song found some
space where Totti or Del Piero should have been, but he seldom got the ball.

Then Trap starts dishing out the wrong signals and the team stops playing.
Of course the Koreans were lucky, but if you surrender the initiative to a
bunch of aggressive, fast and intelligent players, then what do you expect
will happen?

The referee was good. All in all Italy has been a bit unlucky, but in the end
they let themselves down. Knowing how Italy works and imagining what people
there will have read in the papers, perhaps it is understandable that they
come here and ease off their pressure?

It should come as no surprise that Korea (and Japan) plays well. I have always
liked the way they play and lamented their lack of giants up front. This Korea
team seems to cope well anyhow. They mix it up and if the opponents are too
dullwitted, well then that is nothing we can blame on FIFA or South Korea.

Mof

--
Dake-san: - You sure are confident to say you  | Professor:
don't need a handicap. How strong are you kid? | what's another word for
Hikaru: - How strong - hm - about as strong as | "indolent gamer"?
Honinbo Shusaku, probably.                     | Well, I think it's Mof.

 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by Fillipo Tot » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:54:13


Quote:
> Note: there is nothing wrong with Catenaccio, but the team playing it
> has to remember that they have to keep the initiative...

> Italy were playing this match to perfection, using the catenaccio not
> just to sit back but _to score goals_, and they were getting basically
> all the goal chances.  But they must have got tired because after about
> 60' they started to get lazy, not covering each other while defending,
> pulling shirttails instead of boxing out opposing players, forgetting to
> launch believable counter strokes.

> They started to unravel, and the defense stopped being a real tactic and
> more and more a means of desperation.  Korea's goal was a punishment of
> an awful mistake, but when you sit back _and forget to counterstrike_ as
> in the last 15 minutes, you set yourself up because you're on your heels
> and not your toes.

> It's just tough luck... Korea executed their game plan better than
> Italy did theirs, and they progress therefore deservedly.

Try the referees in just about ever game Italy played.  See link./

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml;$sessionid$RMHASPYAABVIHQ...

 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by Fillipo Tot » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:56:08

Quote:

> Good points, but what if the Tommasi goal had not been disallowed?...

English newspaper believes Tommasi scored the gold goal.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml;$sessionid$RMHASPYAABVIHQ...

What is the point of having a "World Cup" when the results are
preordained.

Quote:


> >Note: there is nothing wrong with Catenaccio, but the team playing it
> >has to remember that they have to keep the initiative...

> >Italy were playing this match to perfection, using the catenaccio not
> >just to sit back but _to score goals_, and they were getting basically
> >all the goal chances.  But they must have got tired because after about
> >60' they started to get lazy, not covering each other while defending,
> >pulling shirttails instead of boxing out opposing players, forgetting to
> >launch believable counter strokes.

> >They started to unravel, and the defense stopped being a real tactic and
> >more and more a means of desperation.  Korea's goal was a punishment of
> >an awful mistake, but when you sit back _and forget to counterstrike_ as
> >in the last 15 minutes, you set yourself up because you're on your heels
> >and not your toes.

> >It's just tough luck... Korea executed their game plan better than
> >Italy did theirs, and they progress therefore deservedly.

 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by Fillipo Tot » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:59:37

Quote:






> > Which, I begin to suspect, is what is really drawing the wrath of the
>  Italy
> > fans.  Clutching at thin threads to find blame in this match, several
>  people
> > are making references to the three prior and clearly wrong offsides calls.

> Believe it or not, most Italians believe
> that we have had 4 goals disallowed for inexistent offsides/fould in
> the group phase. They also include Montella's goal against
> Mexico.

English nespaper agreed.

http://SportToday.org/;$sessionid$RMHASPYAABVIHQ...

Quote:
> > People, although those calls were wrong, they didn't affect this match!
> > Some of the calls were marginal, but not clearly wrong, but the built-up
> > annoyance at prior mistakes has distorted the feeling of injury.

Not true.  The bad calls decided the game and possibly the WC.

Quote:

> I think that's an excellent point. If you read the Italian press
> since the beginning of the WC, I'd say that more than 50% of the
> "commentating" space is devoted to FIFA *** theories,
> "refereeing scandals", etc.
> This is direct consequence of the systematic whining you get week
> in and week out in Serie A. Now that everybody can join into
> a unified, national whinefest, with no internal battles between
> Roma and Juve fans, Juve and Inter fans, or what not, this
> is what you get.

> Daniele

At least one of the better English newspapers thinks Italy was robbed
by the officials on at least 3 occassions in the last two games.

 http://SportToday.org/;$sessionid$RMHASPYAABVIHQ...

I think when Vieri spoke up about the officiating after the first
game, they marked Italy for special treatment.

 
 
 

What Let Italy Down

Post by Bruce Scott T » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:10:46



Quote:

>> It's just tough luck...

>A little bit too often, I think ...

Examine the Italian luck, including many questionable calls, since 1982
and then try to convince yourself they are indeed unlucky.

--
cu,
Bruce

drift wave turbulence:  http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/