Barca v PSG thread R

Barca v PSG thread R

Post by Abubak » Fri, 12 Apr 2013 20:10:56


On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:58:46 +1000, Sven Mischkies  

Quote:


>> Quoting Bruce D. Scott in rec.sport.soccer:

>> >|> Don't blame governance for this one, lots of people love this rule.  
>> It
>> >|> would probably get voted in in a referendum (because the masses are
>> >|> stupid).

>> >This has been explained to you before.  And its obvious you think
>> >anything that disagrees with you is stupid.

>> If this (the away goal rule) is to be further enforced they need to  
>> find a
>> better way to select the first home team. It should be done by objective
>> ranking of some kind and not luck of draw.

> It's the other way around. The advantage lies with the team that has the
> second game at home. The away goal rule limits this advantage to almost
> 0%.

How do you know?

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> In a seeded system it might make sense to remove the away goal rule,
> provided you want to give the seeded teams (who get the second leg at
> home) a bigger advantage.

> Ciao,
>         SM

 
 
 

Barca v PSG thread R

Post by Sven Mischki » Fri, 12 Apr 2013 23:06:40

Quote:

> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:45:05 +1000, Sven Mischkies  


> >> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:59:57 +1000, Bruce D. Scott  



> >> > |> Don't blame governance for this one, lots of people love this
> >> rule. It
> >> > |> would probably get voted in in a referendum (because the masses are
> >> > |> stupid).

> >> > This has been explained to you before.

> >> Sorry, what has been explained to me before?

> > That the away goal rule counters the advantage of playing the second leg
> > at home almost perfectly.

> Not quite . The apparent advantage of playing the second leg at home is
> because of ET; the argument was that the away goals rule balances the
> advantage of having the extra 30 mins of play on your home turf. Don't
> muddle the issues.

It's not me, it's my aging memory!

You are right, of course.

Checked for fun who's got the advantage: Teams who got with 1st or 2nd
leg at home, with UEFA/Euroleague results (not counting seeded rounds).
Something seems to have happened around 2006/7 - before that the
advantage was with the second leg, since then a similar advantage seems
to be with the first leg.

Ciao,
        SM
--
Avoid Santander, the magic bank that makes money disappear.

 
 
 

Barca v PSG thread R

Post by Abubak » Fri, 12 Apr 2013 23:16:31

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:06:40 +1000, Sven Mischkies  

Quote:


>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:45:05 +1000, Sven Mischkies


>> >> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:59:57 +1000, Bruce D. Scott



>> >> > |> Don't blame governance for this one, lots of people love this
>> >> rule. It
>> >> > |> would probably get voted in in a referendum (because the masses  
>> are
>> >> > |> stupid).

>> >> > This has been explained to you before.

>> >> Sorry, what has been explained to me before?

>> > That the away goal rule counters the advantage of playing the second  
>> leg
>> > at home almost perfectly.

>> Not quite . The apparent advantage of playing the second leg at home is
>> because of ET; the argument was that the away goals rule balances the
>> advantage of having the extra 30 mins of play on your home turf. Don't
>> muddle the issues.

> It's not me, it's my aging memory!

> You are right, of course.

> Checked for fun who's got the advantage: Teams who got with 1st or 2nd
> leg at home, with UEFA/Euroleague results (not counting seeded rounds).
> Something seems to have happened around 2006/7 - before that the
> advantage was with the second leg, since then a similar advantage seems
> to be with the first leg.

This is what I said before on the subject. Now the the first leg is cagey  
and the home team wants to avoid getting scored against. This is the main  
priority.

 
 
 

Barca v PSG thread R

Post by Abubak » Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:17:50

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 01:06:03 +1000, anders t  

Quote:

> Quoting Abubakr  in rec.sport.soccer:
>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:06:40 +1000, Sven Mischkies


>>>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:45:05 +1000, Sven Mischkies

>>> It's not me, it's my aging memory!
>>> You are right, of course.
>>> Checked for fun who's got the advantage: Teams who got with 1st or 2nd
>>> leg at home, with UEFA/Euroleague results (not counting seeded rounds).
>>> Something seems to have happened around 2006/7 - before that the
>>> advantage was with the second leg, since then a similar advantage seems
>>> to be with the first leg.

>> This is what I said before on the subject. Now the the first leg is  
>> cagey
>> and the home team wants to avoid getting scored against. This is the  
>> main
>> priority.

> There are two issues:

> 1 _avoiding_ ET and/or PS
> 2 fairness

> IMO, #2 has presedence.

> So, it's the ET/PS part that should be addressed, not the first 180 mins.

Of course and the away goals rule is an artificial tie breaker that is  
inherently unfair. Go straight to pks like in South America, or if must  
be, play et in the second leg. But the AGR must go.
 
 
 

Barca v PSG thread R

Post by Sven Mischki » Sat, 13 Apr 2013 03:07:33

Quote:

> Of course and the away goals rule is an artificial tie breaker that is
> inherently unfair. Go straight to pks like in South America, or if must
> be, play et in the second leg. But the AGR must go.

I thought only Mickey Mouse tournaments went right into PKs?

I like the AGR, because it makes team go for it when they could
otherwise sit back.

I like extra time, because it's the best and most exciting time.

Ciao,
        SM
--
Avoid Santander, the magic bank that makes money disappear.

 
 
 

Barca v PSG thread R

Post by Clémen » Sat, 13 Apr 2013 03:21:29

"Sven Mischkies"  escreveu:

Quote:
> I thought only Mickey Mouse tournaments went right into PKs?

The Libertadores is not a Mickey Mouse tournament. It is a garage
tournament, though (to borrow Mario Lemieux's [1] definition).

Quote:
>> I like the AGR, because it makes team go for it when they could
>> otherwise sit back.

But it also makes teams sit back when they could go for it (namely, when
they are at home in the first leg). It works both ways.

Quote:
> I like extra time, because it's the best and most exciting time.

Agreed.

Abra o,

Luiz Mello

 
 
 

Barca v PSG thread R

Post by Binder Dunda » Sat, 13 Apr 2013 04:02:16


Quote:
> "Sven Mischkies" ?escreveu:

> > I thought only Mickey Mouse tournaments went right into PKs?

> The Libertadores is not a Mickey Mouse tournament. It is a garage
> tournament, though (to borrow Mario Lemieux's [1] definition).

you are quoting Penguins!??!!?

I have to admit, I dont know what is meant by a "garage tournament"?

Quote:

> >> I like the AGR, because it makes team go for it when they could
> >> otherwise sit back.

> But it also makes teams sit back when they could go for it (namely, when
> they are at home in the first leg). It works both ways.

> > I like extra time, because it's the best and most exciting time.

> Agreed.

> Abra?o,

> Luiz Mello

 
 
 

Barca v PSG thread R

Post by Clémen » Sat, 13 Apr 2013 04:20:15

"Binder Dundat"  escreveu:

Quote:

>> "Sven Mischkies"  escreveu:
>>> I thought only Mickey Mouse tournaments went right into PKs?

>> The Libertadores is not a Mickey Mouse tournament. It is a garage
>> tournament, though (to borrow Mario Lemieux's [1] definition).

> you are quoting Penguins!??!!?

Not only that, but I forgot to complete the [1] reference. Here it goes:

[1] The One and True Super Mario.

Quote:
> I have to admit, I dont know what is meant by a "garage tournament"?

A not serious one.

Abra o,

Luiz Mello

 
 
 

Barca v PSG thread R

Post by mehd » Tue, 16 Apr 2013 07:33:10


Quote:

>> Stating the obvious, but Fabergas is no Messi
>> 1-1 FT

> ***ing away goals rule. Another scar on the highly flawed way this
> sport is governed.

PSG shouldn't have conceded twice at home. I'm sick of seeing teams that
cannot defend. Are modern day footballers that ***y stupid they can't
concentrate for the duration of a match?

--
http://SportToday.org/
http://SportToday.org/
http://SportToday.org/
https://twitter.com/calcioeurope

 
 
 

Barca v PSG thread R

Post by Werner Pichle » Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:13:35


Quote:

> > On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:45:05 +1000, Sven Mischkies


> > >> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:59:57 +1000, Bruce D. Scott



> > >> > |> Don't blame governance for this one, lots of people love this
> > >> rule. It
> > >> > |> would probably get voted in in a referendum (because the masses are
> > >> > |> stupid).

> > >> > This has been explained to you before.

> > >> Sorry, what has been explained to me before?

> > > That the away goal rule counters the advantage of playing the second leg
> > > at home almost perfectly.

> > Not quite . The apparent advantage of playing the second leg at home is
> > because of ET; the argument was that the away goals rule balances the
> > advantage of having the extra 30 mins of play on your home turf. Don't
> > muddle the issues.

> It's not me, it's my aging memory!

> You are right, of course.

> Checked for fun who's got the advantage: Teams who got with 1st or 2nd
> leg at home, with UEFA/Euroleague results (not counting seeded rounds).
> Something seems to have happened around 2006/7 - before that the
> advantage was with the second leg, since then a similar advantage seems
> to be with the first leg.

> Ciao,
> ? ? ? ? SM
> --
> Avoid Santander, the magic bank that makes money disappear.

In the wake of Tottenham-Inter a couple of weeks ago I did the
numbers for extra time since 1998/99 (last 15 years, because
it was claimed that earlier dates would skew the numbers because
home advantage was more significant in the past - whether or not
that's true is another issue; I doubt it), and I think the results
are pretty clear:

Champions League since 1998/99

Extra times: 49
Home team wins after ET: 17 (34.7%)
Away team wins after ET: 7 (14.3%)
Penalties: 25 (51%)

UEFA Cup / Europa League since 1998/99

Extra times: 126
Home team wins after ET: 34 (27%)
Away team wins after ET: 35 (27.8%)
Penalties: 57 (45.2%)

What this shows IMO is that

- when there is seeding as in the CL round of 16 where
the group winners get to play the 2nd leg at home,
this is noticeable in the number of home teams (i.e.
favourites) that succeed in extra time

- when there is no seeding regarding who gets to
play the 2nd leg at home, as in practically all the
UEFA Cup / Europa League rounds, the numbers
are almost amazingly even. As a noticeable percentage
(didn't check the numbers, but a blog entry I once read
had it at about 25% IIRC) of the away team wins in ET
is due to the away goals rule, this is as good a proof
as it gets that the away goals rule cancels out home
field advantage in a fine balance.

- only half the ties that go to extra time are decided
in extra time anyway

Ciao,
Werner
(just realised that I can't remember if I've
posted that here before)

 
 
 

Barca v PSG thread R

Post by Abubak » Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:22:47



Quote:


>> > On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:45:05 +1000, Sven Mischkies


>> > >> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:59:57 +1000, Bruce D. Scott



>> > >> > |> Don't blame governance for this one, lots of people love this
>> > >> rule. It
>> > >> > |> would probably get voted in in a referendum (because the  
>> masses are
>> > >> > |> stupid).

>> > >> > This has been explained to you before.

>> > >> Sorry, what has been explained to me before?

>> > > That the away goal rule counters the advantage of playing the  
>> second leg
>> > > at home almost perfectly.

>> > Not quite . The apparent advantage of playing the second leg at home  
>> is
>> > because of ET; the argument was that the away goals rule balances the
>> > advantage of having the extra 30 mins of play on your home turf. Don't
>> > muddle the issues.

>> It's not me, it's my aging memory!

>> You are right, of course.

>> Checked for fun who's got the advantage: Teams who got with 1st or 2nd
>> leg at home, with UEFA/Euroleague results (not counting seeded rounds).
>> Something seems to have happened around 2006/7 - before that the
>> advantage was with the second leg, since then a similar advantage seems
>> to be with the first leg.

>> Ciao,
>>         SM
>> --
>> Avoid Santander, the magic bank that makes money disappear.

> In the wake of Tottenham-Inter a couple of weeks ago I did the
> numbers for extra time since 1998/99 (last 15 years, because
> it was claimed that earlier dates would skew the numbers because
> home advantage was more significant in the past - whether or not
> that's true is another issue; I doubt it), and I think the results
> are pretty clear:

> Champions League since 1998/99

> Extra times: 49
> Home team wins after ET: 17 (34.7%)
> Away team wins after ET: 7 (14.3%)
> Penalties: 25 (51%)

> UEFA Cup / Europa League since 1998/99

> Extra times: 126
> Home team wins after ET: 34 (27%)
> Away team wins after ET: 35 (27.8%)
> Penalties: 57 (45.2%)

> What this shows IMO is that

> - when there is seeding as in the CL round of 16 where
> the group winners get to play the 2nd leg at home,
> this is noticeable in the number of home teams (i.e.
> favourites) that succeed in extra time

> - when there is no seeding regarding who gets to
> play the 2nd leg at home, as in practically all the
> UEFA Cup / Europa League rounds, the numbers
> are almost amazingly even. As a noticeable percentage
> (didn't check the numbers, but a blog entry I once read
> had it at about 25% IIRC) of the away team wins in ET
> is due to the away goals rule, this is as good a proof
> as it gets that the away goals rule cancels out home
> field advantage in a fine balance.

I'm not sure this such an airtight case for your conclusion re the away  
goals rule in ET. Firstly, there are many less games played in the CL so  
the sample size is lower. Perhaps in 10 years time the results won't be  
far off the EL results.

Also, it seems to me that the stats are a case against seeding strong  
teams. Would like to see the stats in CL in rounds when the seeding is  
open.

Quote:
> - only half the ties that go to extra time are decided
> in extra time anyway

> Ciao,
> Werner
> (just realised that I can't remember if I've
> posted that here before)

You have.
 
 
 

Barca v PSG thread R

Post by Werner Pichle » Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:30:42


Quote:




> >> > On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:45:05 +1000, Sven Mischkies


> >> > >> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:59:57 +1000, Bruce D. Scott



> >> > >> > |> Don't blame governance for this one, lots of people love this
> >> > >> rule. It
> >> > >> > |> would probably get voted in in a referendum (because the
> >> masses are
> >> > >> > |> stupid).

> >> > >> > This has been explained to you before.

> >> > >> Sorry, what has been explained to me before?

> >> > > That the away goal rule counters the advantage of playing the
> >> second leg
> >> > > at home almost perfectly.

> >> > Not quite . The apparent advantage of playing the second leg at home
> >> is
> >> > because of ET; the argument was that the away goals rule balances the
> >> > advantage of having the extra 30 mins of play on your home turf. Don't
> >> > muddle the issues.

> >> It's not me, it's my aging memory!

> >> You are right, of course.

> >> Checked for fun who's got the advantage: Teams who got with 1st or 2nd
> >> leg at home, with UEFA/Euroleague results (not counting seeded rounds).
> >> Something seems to have happened around 2006/7 - before that the
> >> advantage was with the second leg, since then a similar advantage seems
> >> to be with the first leg.

> >> Ciao,
> >> ? ? ? ? SM
> >> --
> >> Avoid Santander, the magic bank that makes money disappear.

> > In the wake of Tottenham-Inter a couple of weeks ago I did the
> > numbers for extra time since 1998/99 (last 15 years, because
> > it was claimed that earlier dates would skew the numbers because
> > home advantage was more significant in the past - whether or not
> > that's true is another issue; I doubt it), and I think the results
> > are pretty clear:

> > Champions League since 1998/99

> > Extra times: 49
> > Home team wins after ET: 17 (34.7%)
> > Away team wins after ET: 7 (14.3%)
> > Penalties: 25 (51%)

> > UEFA Cup / Europa League since 1998/99

> > Extra times: 126
> > Home team wins after ET: 34 (27%)
> > Away team wins after ET: 35 (27.8%)
> > Penalties: 57 (45.2%)

> > What this shows IMO is that

> > - when there is seeding as in the CL round of 16 where
> > the group winners get to play the 2nd leg at home,
> > this is noticeable in the number of home teams (i.e.
> > favourites) that succeed in extra time

> > - when there is no seeding regarding who gets to
> > play the 2nd leg at home, as in practically all the
> > UEFA Cup / Europa League rounds, the numbers
> > are almost amazingly even. As a noticeable percentage
> > (didn't check the numbers, but a blog entry I once read
> > had it at about 25% IIRC) of the away team wins in ET
> > is due to the away goals rule, this is as good a proof
> > as it gets that the away goals rule cancels out home
> > field advantage in a fine balance.

> I'm not sure this such an airtight case for your conclusion re the away
> goals rule in ET. Firstly, there are many less games played in the CL so
> the sample size is lower. Perhaps in 10 years time the results won't be
> far off the EL results.

> Also, it seems to me that the stats are a case against seeding strong
> teams. Would like to see the stats in CL in rounds when the seeding is
> open.

In this case it's not about seeding itself, it's about whether the
seeded
team also gets to play the 2nd leg at home. I know this for certain
only
for the 1st knock-out round of the CL, but it might be true for
qualification
rounds as well (which are all included in the above statistics). This
would need to be checked.

Quote:
> > - only half the ties that go to extra time are decided
> > in extra time anyway

> > Ciao,
> > Werner
> > (just realised that I can't remember if I've
> > posted that here before)

> You have.

Ah OK then. Memory like a sieve.

Ciao,
Werner