Sport Today

Other than U.S.-Mexico (And technically Portugal-Spain) what are other big
rivalry games between national teams in the Western Hemisphere?  I assume
Brazil-Argentina is heated.

Jason

How so Portugal and Spain?

El Salvador-Honduras has, arguably, been bigger than any rivalry
anywhere, ever!

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/sierra/soccer1969.htm

Brazil-Argentina is the biggest one, for sure.

In the past, I would add Brazil-Uruguay, but Uruguay's decline is
fading this rivalry (not even the famous memories from 1950 will shake
a lot of brazilians in the future, I guess).

Argentina-Uruguay is also a good guess. Not sure if it's also fading.
Possibly not, since they are closer neighbours, generally speaking.

Abra?o,

Luiz Mello

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:30:52 -0700, Clment

And one with a lot more history.  The US vs. Mexico rivalry is a
relatively recent thing because it's only been in the last 20 years,
or so, that the US has been able to compete with Mexico on the soccer
field.  The rivalry is felt much more in Mexico than it is in the US
because soccer is Mexico's national sport and, if nothing else, Mexico
could always beat the US at soccer.  Losing to the US is a bitter pill
for the Mexicans to swallow.

The ghost of 1950 is indeed fading for Brasilians, but it still seems
to move the Uruguayans. The last WCQ encounter in Montevideo (1-1
draw), there was this huge celeste "1950" flag, with stars with the
German flag colours. They always play like lions against us, and I'd
even say that they usually are the toughest opponents Brasil has (yes,
even more than Argentina).

I remember watching them playing pathetically and losing 0-3 to
Venezuela *at El Centenrio* just to, one round later, come back from
a 0-2 deficit against Brasil in Brasil... how often do you see that
happening. And it's been a while since we last beat them. Not counting
the pros vs U-23 demolition in the Copa America 1999 final, the last
win over them that I can remember is the famous 1993 WCQ at the
Maracan?...

OTOH, apart from a WCQ in 2001 in Montevideo, it's also a while since
they last beat us. Going by recent history, Brasil vs Uruguay has been
turning out to be a very even contest, usually ending on a draw or a
close win by the home team (or someone wins on penalties, like Uruguay
in 1995 and Brasil in 2004). Brasil vs Argentina, otoh, whoever is at
home usually wins.

For its tradition alone it's a candidate for the biggest.

In the rest of South America, the only other ones I know are Peru-
Chile and Peru-Ecuador.

--
Llo

I just meant that Portugal and most of Spain is actually in the Western
Hemisphere

Jason

Ah! If you're not basing your definition of Western Hemisphere on
geopolitical realities instead of the Prime Meridian, then you'd have
to include most of the British isles and a good chunk of  Western
Africa.  :-)

Back to what you've really intended, though, it might be interesting
to make a list of pairs of nations that have notable contentious
relationships both on and off the soccer field.

Sure, but then by that criterion England-Scotland trumps everything, and
England-Ireland isn't too far behind.

How about Faroe - Iceland?

D

England-Scotland can't hold a candle to Brazil-Argentina, arch-rivals
who've produced the world's greatest-ever players, who've won every
World Cup played outside of Western Europe or South America, and who
face one another often in meaningful games.

As for the soccer history between England and Ireland, it's barely
worth mentioning.

P

I was thinking more of how the "Ghost of 1950" is a big deal for the
Brazilian media, to the point that any youth matchup in any sport
between Brazil and Uruguay cannot happen without mentioning a 1950
revenge.

In this sense, it always looked like brazilians cared most about this
thing than even the uruguayans did, as if they moved on, but we didn't
(granted, it's easier to "move on" when you win ;).

Alcides Ghiggia once said that he was impressed by how big those
memories were in Brazil. He specifically mentioned a funny story of
how he was presenting his passport to a 20-something young woman. Then
she gave him a strange look and asked "are you THAT Ghiggia?"

He was amazed that someone (and particularly a young woman) born long
after 1950 would recognize him like that, something he thought could
not happen in Uruguay. And he was also amazed about how brazilians
could still give so much weight to that specific match, even though we
went on to win a handful of World Cups after that.

I usually joke about how Brazil are the only team left in the world
that still have trouble against Uruguay.

And yes, they are usually tougher opponents for us than Argentina is.
For example, do you remember the last time Brazil won at Centenrio?

Abra?o,

Luiz Mello

Yeah, but since the Prime Meridian was established in England, and splits
both countries, I wasn't going to consider them.  At least with Portugal -
Spain all of one country and most of the other is in the Western Hemisphere.
;)

Now I did forget to consider Ireland, N. Ireland, and Wales though.  And I
thought about Western Africa, but I know so little about African soccer
there's nothing I could come up with.

Jason

Is Portugal-Spain really that much of a rivalry?

Indeed, a kind of self-inflicted haunting. Since they always need
stories, the media will always bring it up when we play against
Uruguay, but in other contexts, my impression is that whenever the
media feels like bringing up a painful defeat, they go for 1982
instead. And maybe it has something to do with Barbosa's death in
2000; he was used as a scapegoat, and now that his memory must be
respected, the media lost the story's angle they used to explore the
most.

Ghiggia on that game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzb6ghb4EB0

For those who don't understand Portuguese: in this video Ziza talks
about how, after the game, in his way back home, people were going
like "heads up Ziza", "wasn't to be this time Ziza", and how later the
media made a big deal out of it, so that even nowadays, whenever WC
time comes, he has to turn off his telephone... and after the match
footage, Ghiggia talks about how they didn't know what to expect from
the public after the game, but he was surprised to see people
congratulating them for the victory.

No, because I haven't seen it... it was a 2-1 win in a friendly, in
1976. It was this year that, IIRC, Argentina also last won there.
Otoh, it is quite a while since they last won in Brasil as well.

On another note, I wish Marcelo Weinberger was still around, so that
we could have an insight of "the other side" of the Brasil-Uruguay
rivalry.

--
Llo