Champion's League Champion!

Champion's League Champion!

Post by DI » Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:07:46


In my opinion Real Madrid will be the Champion's League, because it
has the best players in the world. Who will be the Champion of
Champion's League? Why? What is your opinion?
 
 
 

Champion's League Champion!

Post by Benn » Fri, 12 Apr 2002 21:03:50

Quote:

> Subject : Champion's League Champion!
>In my opinion Real Madrid will be the Champion's League, because it
>has the best players in the world.

Or because they have UEFA and the refs in their pockets.

                        http://soccer-europe.com

 
 
 

Champion's League Champion!

Post by Gonzalo San Marti » Fri, 12 Apr 2002 22:00:36



Quote:

>> Subject : Champion's League Champion!

>>In my opinion Real Madrid will be the Champion's League, because it
>>has the best players in the world.

>Or because they have UEFA and the refs in their pockets.

Benny, your paranoia is getting seriously tiresome. If UEFA and all
the referees are indeed corrupt, why would they favour Real over
Bayern? Admittedly the game had some ugly moments, and perhaps the ref
should have been stricter, but from this to widespread corruption in
European football is taking things a bit far.

I think most neutral observers would agree that Real were superior to
Bayern over the two legs, individual incidents notwithstanding.

Get over it.

Gonzalo

http://www.yrl.co.uk/~gonzalo/rm/

 
 
 

Champion's League Champion!

Post by Benn » Fri, 12 Apr 2002 23:10:24

Quote:

> Subject : Champion's League Champion!
>Benny, your paranoia is getting seriously tiresome. If UEFA and all
>the referees are indeed corrupt, why would they favour Real over
>Bayern?

They favour Spanish clubs :

2000-2001

Bowyer gets a three game ban for stamping on Juan Sanchez, off the ball
missed by the ref

Nedved gets a three game ban for a shocking foul on Leed's Alan Maybury

Raul gets a one game ban for handball rescinded

2001-2002

Roma are given a one game ban from the Olimpico for crowd trouble

Barca fans try to set Panathinaikos' 'keeper on fire and send one of
their staff to hospital - so far no action

Roberto Carlos elbows Salihamidzic - so far no action

Raul elbows Linke - so far no action

Tristian tries to cripple Beckham - no action

Duscher cripples Beckham - so far no action

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Champion's League Champion!

Post by José M. Ma » Sat, 13 Apr 2002 00:16:19



Quote:
> Barca fans try to set Panathinaikos' 'keeper on fire and send one of
> their staff to hospital - so far no action

Maybe I am wrong, but what was said about Panathinaikos' doctor was that
he raised up too fast when Bonano and Olisadebe crushed, and he hitted
his head with the canopy on the bench. As a consequence of the impact,
he suffered an epileptic attack and that's why he was transferred to a
hospital.

Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.

 
 
 

Champion's League Champion!

Post by Gonzalo San Marti » Sat, 13 Apr 2002 00:40:33



Quote:
>They favour Spanish clubs :

>2000-2001

>Bowyer gets a three game ban for stamping on Juan Sanchez, off the ball
>missed by the ref

>Nedved gets a three game ban for a shocking foul on Leed's Alan Maybury

>Raul gets a one game ban for handball rescinded

And these incidents are comparable? This *proves* UEFA favouritism?

Quote:
>2001-2002

>Roma are given a one game ban from the Olimpico for crowd trouble

Wasn't this the match where the Italian police beat up the Galatasaray
players?

Quote:
>Barca fans try to set Panathinaikos' 'keeper on fire and send one of
>their staff to hospital - so far no action

I didn't see the game, but I read (BBC, before you ask) that the
incident with the Panathinaikos doctor was that his hospitalization
was apparently caused by his hitting his head on the roof above the
bench and, on falling, had swallowed his tongue, dislocated his
shoulder and suffered convulsions. Several items hit Real players in
the first leg at Munich, but I don't see anyone asking for the Olympic
stadium to be shut. Not that I agree with that sort of action from the
crowd: the expectation is that both Real and Bar?a will get hefty
fines from UEFA for the incidents, which is what usually happens for
incidents of this nature at any ground in any country. If any of the
players had been hurt by crowd action or been beaten up in the tunnel
after the game by club officials or police, I would expect UEFA to
close the ground too.

Quote:
>Roberto Carlos elbows Salihamidzic - so far no action

>Raul elbows Linke - so far no action

>Tristian tries to cripple Beckham - no action

>Duscher cripples Beckham - so far no action

Both Tristn and Duscher were shown yellow cards for their actions.
You could argue that they should have been sent off, but surely that
is always up to the interpretation of the referee? And are you
seriously suggesting that this again *proves* UEFA favours Spanish
clubs? I'm sure every single contested high-tension game has at least
a handful of incidents which will aggrieve the fans of one side or
other.

I'm not sure what criteria UEFA use for handing out bans to players,
but I daresay it has to do with an intention of a player to cause hurt
or damage to another, and intention is always going to be subjectively
interpreted. I don't see that a case has been made for justifying your
initial claim that Real Madrid "have UEFA and the refs in their
pockets". For some reason you're bitter, but it looks to me like
gathering supporting "evidence" to back up your case and ignoring
anything that doesn't.

Gonzalo
http://www.yrl.co.uk/~gonzalo/rm/

 
 
 

Champion's League Champion!

Post by Benn » Sat, 13 Apr 2002 02:14:37

Quote:

> Subject : Champion's League Champion!
>>They favour Spanish clubs :

>>2000-2001

>>Bowyer gets a three game ban for stamping on Juan Sanchez, off the ball
>>missed by the ref

>>Nedved gets a three game ban for a shocking foul on Leed's Alan Maybury

>>Raul gets a one game ban for handball rescinded

>And these incidents are comparable? This *proves* UEFA favouritism?

The first two are perfectly comparable to Real's elbows and Depor's
fouls on Beckham.

Quote:
>Wasn't this the match where the Italian police beat up the Galatasaray
>players?

And beating up a team doctor and trying to injure the 'keeper shouldn't
be punished in the same way?

Quote:
>I didn't see the game, but I read (BBC, before you ask) that the
>incident with the Panathinaikos doctor was that his hospitalization
>was apparently caused by his hitting his head on the roof above the
>bench and, on falling, had swallowed his tongue, dislocated his
>shoulder and suffered convulsions. Several items hit Real players in

Not according to soccerage.

Quote:
>the first leg at Munich, but I don't see anyone asking for the Olympic
>stadium to be shut. Not that I agree with that sort of action from the
>crowd: the expectation is that both Real and Bar?a will get hefty
>fines from UEFA for the incidents, which is what usually happens for
>incidents of this nature at any ground in any country.

No it doesn't. Roma and Fiorentina have been banned for similar
incidents.

Quote:
> If any of the
>players had been hurt by crowd action or been beaten up in the tunnel
>after the game by club officials or police, I would expect UEFA to
>close the ground too.

I doubt it.

Quote:
>Both Tristn and Duscher were shown yellow cards for their actions.
>You could argue that they should have been sent off, but surely that
>is always up to the interpretation of the referee? And are you
>seriously suggesting that this again *proves* UEFA favours Spanish
>clubs? I'm sure every single contested high-tension game has at least
>a handful of incidents which will aggrieve the fans of one side or
>other.

The Bowyer incident was missed by the ref but he was banned after UEFA
looked at video evidence. Exactly the same as the Roberto Carlos and
Raul incidents, both of which were missed by Braschi. Nedved was booked
by the ref for a terrible tackle then banned after UEFA looked at video
evidence. EXACTLY the same as the Tristan and Duscher incidents the only
difference being that UEFA as yet haven't taken any action against the
Depor players.

Quote:
>I'm not sure what criteria UEFA use for handing out bans to players,
>but I daresay it has to do with an intention of a player to cause hurt
>or damage to another, and intention is always going to be subjectively
>interpreted. I don't see that a case has been made for justifying your
>initial claim that Real Madrid "have UEFA and the refs in their
>pockets". For some reason you're bitter, but it looks to me like
>gathering supporting "evidence" to back up your case and ignoring
>anything that doesn't.

I've compared similar incidents.

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Champion's League Champion!

Post by Oliver Alexande » Sat, 13 Apr 2002 20:14:23

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:40:33 +0100, Gonzalo San Martin

...

Quote:
>shoulder and suffered convulsions. Several items hit Real players in
>the first leg at Munich, but I don't see anyone asking for the Olympic
>stadium to be shut. Not that I agree with that sort of action from the

Dear Gonzalo,

I doubt you know Munich's Olympic Stadium - there you are so far away
from the field and it indeed would require a truly Olympic effort to
throw anything onto the ground. The Olympic Stadium is an athletic
stadium of very generous dimensions.

From the front of the standing areas in the curves a throw would have
to cover approximately 60 metres or more to rech the goal line.

From the sides you would have to cover ca. 25-35 metres just to the
white line.

Also, Munich has excellent guards and I cannot a single incident that
would come anywhre near a spectator interference with the goings on on
the pitch.

Even on the way onto and off the pitch the players is very safe: the
way to the cabins is directly under the heavily guarded VIP area.

Please do not attempt to spread rumors that cannot be maintained.

Another piece of trivia: Munich's Olympic Stadium  in the late
seventies or early eighties attracted once a crowd of 80.000 for a
second division match betwen Bayern's local rival 1860 and FC Augsburg
(1:1)  (the club which has Helmut Haller as its most famous son.)

If anybody could name me a bigger crowd for second division football
world-wide I would like to hear about it.

Sorry and Cheers,
Oliver.

 
 
 

Champion's League Champion!

Post by Gonzalo San Marti » Sat, 13 Apr 2002 20:55:28

Quote:
>Please do not attempt to spread rumors that cannot be maintained.

Oliver,

If I've stated something that is not true, then I sincerely apologize.
I got my information from the Spanish sports media, which may have
been misinformed (or simply making it up). I've never been to the
Munich Olympic stadium, so could not judge the likelihood that those
claims were correct. I wasn't trying to discredit Bayern, rather to
illustrate the fact that this sort of incident happens all the time,
is not purely the preserve of Spanish stadia, and that UEFA does not
show favouritism when handing out bans.

Regards,
Gonzalo
http://www.yrl.co.uk/~gonzalo/rm/

 
 
 

Champion's League Champion!

Post by Gonzalo San Marti » Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:19:35



Quote:

>> Subject : Champion's League Champion!

>>>They favour Spanish clubs :

>>>2000-2001

>>>Bowyer gets a three game ban for stamping on Juan Sanchez, off the ball
>>>missed by the ref

>>>Nedved gets a three game ban for a shocking foul on Leed's Alan Maybury

>>>Raul gets a one game ban for handball rescinded

>>And these incidents are comparable? This *proves* UEFA favouritism?

>The first two are perfectly comparable to Real's elbows and Depor's
>fouls on Beckham.

>>Wasn't this the match where the Italian police beat up the Galatasaray
>>players?

>And beating up a team doctor and trying to injure the 'keeper shouldn't
>be punished in the same way?

>>I didn't see the game, but I read (BBC, before you ask) that the
>>incident with the Panathinaikos doctor was that his hospitalization
>>was apparently caused by his hitting his head on the roof above the
>>bench and, on falling, had swallowed his tongue, dislocated his
>>shoulder and suffered convulsions. Several items hit Real players in

>Not according to soccerage.

Well there you go... different sources, different interpretations.
Personally I'll take the BBC over soccerage any day, but your mileage
may vary. In any case, it illustrates the point that it's not that
clear cut that the Panathinaikos doctor was "beaten up". In any case,
the incidents are still under consideration by UEFA, so they may very
well take action.

Quote:
>>the first leg at Munich, but I don't see anyone asking for the Olympic
>>stadium to be shut. Not that I agree with that sort of action from the
>>crowd: the expectation is that both Real and Bar?a will get hefty
>>fines from UEFA for the incidents, which is what usually happens for
>>incidents of this nature at any ground in any country.

>No it doesn't. Roma and Fiorentina have been banned for similar
>incidents.

And Real was banned in '98 for their game against Inter, following
incidents in the previous season's semifinal. Perhaps they should have
been banned for life, so UEFA can't be accused of favouritism?

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
>> If any of the
>>players had been hurt by crowd action or been beaten up in the tunnel
>>after the game by club officials or police, I would expect UEFA to
>>close the ground too.

>I doubt it.

>>Both Tristn and Duscher were shown yellow cards for their actions.
>>You could argue that they should have been sent off, but surely that
>>is always up to the interpretation of the referee? And are you
>>seriously suggesting that this again *proves* UEFA favours Spanish
>>clubs? I'm sure every single contested high-tension game has at least
>>a handful of incidents which will aggrieve the fans of one side or
>>other.

>The Bowyer incident was missed by the ref but he was banned after UEFA
>looked at video evidence. Exactly the same as the Roberto Carlos and
>Raul incidents, both of which were missed by Braschi. Nedved was booked
>by the ref for a terrible tackle then banned after UEFA looked at video
>evidence. EXACTLY the same as the Tristan and Duscher incidents the only
>difference being that UEFA as yet haven't taken any action against the
>Depor players.

Should UEFA take action? It's *your* opinion that those tackles were
worthy of further punishment. Alex Ferguson himself said about the
Duscher tackle: "The game of football is about tackles and I think the
player maybe had to go for it [the ball]." He also said about
Tristn's challenge, before the game at Manchester: "I don't think
Diego Tristn is a player like that. I think it was a rash moment, but
we were happy that David didn't suffer any serious injury. I think the
boy has apologized and that's the noble thing to do. He will find no
problem at all from Manchester United." Again, someone correct me if
I'm wrong, but doesn't someone have to make a complaint before UEFA
investigates an incident of this nature? Do they do so unilaterally?

Quote:
>>I'm not sure what criteria UEFA use for handing out bans to players,
>>but I daresay it has to do with an intention of a player to cause hurt
>>or damage to another, and intention is always going to be subjectively
>>interpreted. I don't see that a case has been made for justifying your
>>initial claim that Real Madrid "have UEFA and the refs in their
>>pockets". For some reason you're bitter, but it looks to me like
>>gathering supporting "evidence" to back up your case and ignoring
>>anything that doesn't.

>I've compared similar incidents.

You've picked a handful of incidents which "support" your case (and in
some cases I don't think you're comparing like with like), and made up
some paranoid story about Real and other Spanish teams paying off UEFA
to be allowed to do what they want. There are reasons why in the last
3 years Spanish clubs have done extremely well in Europe (particularly
the Champions League) but I don't think you've spotted them yet.

Perhaps the method by which UEFA hands out bans to grounds and players
needs more openness, but I don't think there's some sort of ***
going on, and I don't think you're anywhere near proving your
assertions.

Gonzalo
http://SportToday.org/~gonzalo/rm/

 
 
 

Champion's League Champion!

Post by Oliver Alexande » Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:33:13

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:55:28 +0100, Gonzalo San Martin

Quote:

>>Please do not attempt to spread rumors that cannot be maintained.

>Oliver,

>If I've stated something that is not true, then I sincerely apologize.
>I got my information from the Spanish sports media, which may have
>been misinformed (or simply making it up). I've never been to the

Dear Gonzalo,
I respectfully acknowledge your stance in this matter. If this
standard of posting would only be more widespread!
Cheers,
Oliver.
 
 
 

Champion's League Champion!

Post by Benn » Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:57:32

Quote:

> Subject : Champion's League Champion!
>Well there you go... different sources, different interpretations.
>Personally I'll take the BBC over soccerage any day, but your mileage
>may vary. In any case, it illustrates the point that it's not that
>clear cut that the Panathinaikos doctor was "beaten up". In any case,
>the incidents are still under consideration by UEFA, so they may very
>well take action.

They took about two days to punish Roma. Three days and counting so far
for Barca.

Quote:
>And Real was banned in '98 for their game against Inter, following
>incidents in the previous season's semifinal. Perhaps they should have
>been banned for life, so UEFA can't be accused of favouritism?

You have to go back 4 years?

Quote:
>Should UEFA take action? It's *your* opinion that those tackles were
>worthy of further punishment. Alex Ferguson himself said about the
>Duscher tackle: "The game of football is about tackles and I think the
>player maybe had to go for it [the ball]." He also said about
>Tristn's challenge, before the game at Manchester: "I don't think
>Diego Tristn is a player like that. I think it was a rash moment, but
>we were happy that David didn't suffer any serious injury. I think the
>boy has apologized and that's the noble thing to do. He will find no
>problem at all from Manchester United." Again, someone correct me if
>I'm wrong, but doesn't someone have to make a complaint before UEFA
>investigates an incident of this nature? Do they do so unilaterally?

Leeds didn't complain about the Nedved tackle, UEFA took action
themselves. Valencia did not, to my knowledge, complain when Bowyer
stamped on Sanchez, UEFA took action themselves. Players do not complain
about being elbowed, the respective FA take action themselves.

Quote:
>You've picked a handful of incidents which "support" your case (and in
>some cases I don't think you're comparing like with like), and made up
>some paranoid story about Real and other Spanish teams paying off UEFA
>to be allowed to do what they want. There are reasons why in the last
>3 years Spanish clubs have done extremely well in Europe (particularly
>the Champions League) but I don't think you've spotted them yet.

I have.

Quote:
>Perhaps the method by which UEFA hands out bans to grounds and players
>needs more openness, but I don't think there's some sort of ***
>going on, and I don't think you're anywhere near proving your
>assertions.

There are double standards, I don't think anyone can dispute that.

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Champion's League Champion!

Post by Gonzalo San Marti » Sun, 14 Apr 2002 01:25:18



Quote:

>> Subject : Champion's League Champion!

>They took about two days to punish Roma. Three days and counting so far
>for Barca.

As I understand it they take these decisions at regularly scheduled
meetings. Perhaps there was one right after the Roma game? Or did UEFA
make an exceptional decision?

Quote:

>>And Real was banned in '98 for their game against Inter, following
>>incidents in the previous season's semifinal. Perhaps they should have
>>been banned for life, so UEFA can't be accused of favouritism?

>You have to go back 4 years?

You're saying UEFA's changed their double standard in the last 4
years? Doesn't sound such a long time to me.

Quote:
>>There are reasons why in the last
>>3 years Spanish clubs have done extremely well in Europe (particularly
>>the Champions League) but I don't think you've spotted them yet.

>I have.

Really? You never mentioned that they've been generally playing at a
higher standard than all the other teams. Because that's the only
reason.

Quote:
>>Perhaps the method by which UEFA hands out bans to grounds and players
>>needs more openness, but I don't think there's some sort of ***
>>going on, and I don't think you're anywhere near proving your
>>assertions.

>There are double standards, I don't think anyone can dispute that.

I'm disputing your assertion that Real have UEFA and the referees "in
their pockets". I'm disputing that somehow not just Real, but Spanish
sides get an easy ride from UEFA. But we're not getting anywhere -
you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours.
I refuse to accept your arguments as valid and you definitely don't
accept my rebuttals.

Gonzalo
http://SportToday.org/~gonzalo/rm/

 
 
 

Champion's League Champion!

Post by soccer-europ » Sun, 14 Apr 2002 01:47:56

Quote:

> Subject : Champion's League Champion!
>As I understand it they take these decisions at regularly scheduled
>meetings. Perhaps there was one right after the Roma game? Or did UEFA
>make an exceptional decision?

They usually take action within days.

Quote:
>You're saying UEFA's changed their double standard in the last 4
>years? Doesn't sound such a long time to me.

It seems they have changed over the past year.

Quote:
>Really? You never mentioned that they've been generally playing at a
>higher standard than all the other teams. Because that's the only
>reason.

All the other teams? Despite the so called *** of Spanish clubs
only one has won a European trophy in the past three seasons.

Quote:
>I'm disputing your assertion that Real have UEFA and the referees "in
>their pockets". I'm disputing that somehow not just Real, but Spanish
>sides get an easy ride from UEFA. But we're not getting anywhere -
>you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours.
>I refuse to accept your arguments as valid and you definitely don't
>accept my rebuttals.

If UEFA take disciplinary action against Barca, Tristan, Dushcer, Raul
and Roberto Carlos then there are no double standards.

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Champion's League Champion!

Post by Jeroe » Sun, 14 Apr 2002 02:19:33

Quote:

>All the other teams? Despite the so called *** of Spanish clubs
>only one has won a European trophy in the past three seasons.

You neglect to mention that out of the past 8 Champions' League
semi-finalists over two years, 5 have been Spanish.  Plus, 2 of the 4
semi-finalists in last year's UEFA Cup were Spanish.  That's pretty
***, if you ask me.