Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by wanyik.. » Fri, 03 Nov 2006 01:51:48


Comments: talks about Rotation, Garcia - ***or not?, Gerrard - right
or centre?, Crouch, etc etc.

http://SportToday.org/

It's official: rotation is the new zonal marking. One of the drawbacks
of supporting a club with a forward-thinking manager is that it
intimidates the old order, confuses some of the less astute pressmen,
and leads to all sorts of crazy criticisms.
By Paul Tomkins

Last night's result coincided with the end of the run of 99 'rotated'
team selections by Rafa Bentez. The victory will of course be
attributed solely to keeping a settled side, even though Saturday's
performance, with an altered side, was far more impressive.

Personally, I don't care whether the team is rotated or not; if you
have a manager who has strong ideas and, more importantly, a long-term
vision, and who has proven he can win major trophies with those
methods, you have to trust him. If we had another proven top manager
who didn't rotate, then he would have his own good reasons for that
approach.

The facts actually suggest that Rafa's rotation policy works; not that
the facts are ever allowed to get in the way of a good story.

Too much football punditry is based on snap assessments, tired old
clichs and perpetuated myths. Falsehoods are presented as truths,
simply because people don't bother to check the validity of what they
are saying. Misconceptions are rife. This past week has seen the
criticism of rotation intensify, and also seen the quality of the
players called into question, amongst other things.

Rotation is part of the forward-thinking modern management that Rafa is
all about. And the innovators in life are those who look forward, not
backwards. Bill Shankly was an innovator. He did things his way. He
changed things at Liverpool, updated them. There was no instant
success, and there was also a seven-year hiatus between his 2nd and 3rd
league titles, but boy did he deliver. Shankly didn't look to what won
the league 20 years earlier, but what would win it this season, or the
next.

The aim of joining Oliver Anderson to write The Red Review was to get a
more accurate assessment of what goes on on the pitch. Things like
comparing the Reds' results when Gerrard plays on the right to when he
plays centrally; how the team defend set pieces; who tends to be most
involved in the 'business end' of goals beyond a simple assist; how
many mistakes players make that cost the team goals; which players help
the team to better results; and so on.

It's about being better informed. It's not about meaningless stats, but
detailed tactical assessments on what works and what doesn't. It's easy
to mock zonal marking, slate rotation, say Steven Gerrard is wasted on
the right, and call Luis Garcia a liability, but is any of it actually
true?

Zonal marking

Let's start with the grand folly that is zonal marking - or so you
might have been led to think. Or maybe you've read this column before,
and discovered that Liverpool were actually the most successful team at
defending set pieces last season?

In 2005/06 the Reds conceded only four league goals from corners and
indirect free-kicks; or one every nine games, compared with Chelsea,
the next-best team, and their rate of one every six games.

This season the Reds' figure stands at one such goal conceded from ten
league games, and that was way back on the opening day; so a further
improvement. And yet still, despite all this, not a single game goes by
without zonal marking being mentioned by commentators, with the
inference that Liverpool are dodgy at set pieces.

Luis Garcia is a luxury suited only to European matches

Luis Garcia has now scored 28 goals in two and a bit seasons. All from
open play. That's a great record, especially as he doesn't play every
game, and is mostly a midfielder.

In his first season he scored the crucial Champions League goals, which
no one can forget, and he's got three in this year's competition
already. However, last season he was 'directly involved' in more
Liverpool goals per-90 minutes of Premiership football than any other
player (involvement being based on the final three players to touch the
ball in the scoring of any goal). His best form was in the English
game, to which some feel he is not suited. He also leads the club's
standings in the league this season, with an even more impressive rate.
He makes things happen.

Of course, he also has those days when nothing goes right. But isn't it
time we learned to live with his faults, because it's the good things
he does that ultimately make a difference, and often in big games?

It's also worth remembering that not once since his arrival has he
given the ball away and it led directly to an opposition goal (it might
have indirectly at times, further down the line in a move, but then
that can be said of anyone who concedes possession).

Give me a Garcia over a player who only ever does the simple thing and
never has the bottle to try something special - the kind of thing
needed in the final third.

Steven Gerrard is better in the centre

Last season for Liverpool, Gerrard played over 1500 minutes on the
right of midfield, compared with more than 2600 minutes centrally
(split fairly evenly between a standard midfield role, and that of the
second forward). He was productive wherever he played, scoring and
creating aplenty, although his personal figures were slightly higher in
a central role.

But Liverpool won by far the most points (in all competitions, using
three points for cup wins as well) when he was on the right wing: 2.30
per game, compared with 1.89 when central. On the whole, the fixtures
where he was used on the right were arguably tougher than average, and
predominately away games.

Isn't it Bentez's job to win games, rather than make the side merely
a showcase for Steven Gerrard's great talents? Isn't it about getting
the best out of all eleven players, with the correct blend? Gerrard
might catch the eye more centrally, but results tend to be better when
he's on the right.

But the right wing is just a starting position. When Gerrard drifts
inside he can quickly change the dynamics of a game; putting a defence
under pressure with his movement and creating space for others, as he
did for the third goal this weekend.

With Sissoko and Alonso the type of midfielders who rarely get ahead of
the ball, it needs darting runs infield from the wings; so long as
others cover the captain when he wanders, and that's down to the two
central players a lot of the time. The bonus is that when Gerrard stays
out wide he can deliver superb crosses, while also having the stamina,
pace and tackling ability to do the ugly work, too.

Peter Crouch is not a goalscorer

Eight goals for Crouch for the Reds this season, and 21 in total. Add
11 for England, and you have 32 goals in a fraction less than 11
months. Include his Southampton goals since the start of 2005 and it
takes him to 42 in two months short of two years.

When will people ever take him seriously as a goalscorer?

Rotation, and the new 'Tinkerman'

What I don't get is that going into last weekend's fixtures, Bentez
had made only one change more than Alex Ferguson in the Premiership:
30, to 29. Chelsea were the third-most rotated team. So rotation, as a
concept, doesn't work? Hmm...

Meanwhile, Arsenal kept the same team as the weekend before, and
dropped two more points at home. No one blamed it on having a settled
side. But why should they?

Another irritant is that rotation has been heavily criticised after
Liverpool defeats this season - but the '99 games since last
unchanged line-up' got brought up as a criticism too, as if it was been
a problem for 99 games. Which, clearly, is insane. Why did no one
actually bother to look at the results over those 99 games?

Let me remind people that despite the stuttering start to this season,
Liverpool had won 60 out of the previous 100 games, which is easy to
work out at 60%. Or in other words, the kind of win percentage that
used to land Liverpool the league. (The average over those 18 league
titles is also 60% of games won.)

Times have changed. As an example, the Reds secured the league in 1984
with a mere 52.4% win rating, drawing 14 games and losing six of the 42
matches. That many draws alone would be the same as losing more than
eight games in the modern points system, and that's on top of the six
actual defeats; so the dropped points would now be the same as 14
defeats in a season (or 12-13 in a 38 game season).

I don't wish to knock that great side's achievement, as it was a case
of doing what was required at the time (not to mention it being part of
a stunning treble). But that was back then. Alex Ferguson never rotated
in 1986, when he took charge of Manchester United; but he has for the
last decade or so. He moved with the times.

The Reds' 99 game run covered all competitions, of course, and included
domestic cup games, which could be said to be easier. But in a bizarre
quirk of the luck of the draw, Bentez has yet to face a side lower
that mid-table in the Championship since his arrival, and has faced
mostly Premiership sides. No lower or non-league opposition in the last
two years, unlike Manchester United.

That run of 99 games also included an incredible ten games against
Chelsea, that show how tough the fixture list has been in that time,
plus four against United. And more importantly than anything else, it
included the European Cup, World Club Championship and FA Cup finals,
the former and latter of which were won. We're not talking easy games
here.

Some say only rotate when you're winning. But rotate a winning side and
lose, and you'd hear "you never change a winning team".

As I've said in recent weeks, there were a number of factors at work in
the disappointing start: dips in individual form, silly mistakes, bad
finishing, near misses (the Reds have now hit the woodwork a staggering
14 times this season), all leading to a dip in the ...

read more »

 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by RED DEVI » Fri, 03 Nov 2006 02:28:38


Quote:
>Comments: talks about Rotation, Garcia - ***or not?, Gerrard - right
>or centre?, Crouch, etc etc.

It's not really his "rotating" that's giving Liverpool problems it's
who he is rotating!  Very few managers in their right mind would leave
Gerrard on the bench for any match barring the odd Cup match. Players
have to be confident to play well and that's hard to do when you never
know when your next match will be. Rotation for some positions and
players is fine, but you have to have a backbone in the team that
believe in themselves and go out there thinking they are the best at
their club. This breeds self confidence in what they are doing and
good form usually follows. All partizan thoughts aside Liverpool have
a good squad with some very good players but it's evident when you
watch them play this season that their confidence levels are low.
Sammy Hypia for example looks scared to death of making a mistake,
he's obviously a good player but his confidence looks shot.
Quote:
>http://SportToday.org/

>It's official: rotation is the new zonal marking. One of the drawbacks
>of supporting a club with a forward-thinking manager is that it
>intimidates the old order, confuses some of the less astute pressmen,
>and leads to all sorts of crazy criticisms.
>By Paul Tomkins

>Last night's result coincided with the end of the run of 99 'rotated'
>team selections by Rafa Bentez. The victory will of course be
>attributed solely to keeping a settled side, even though Saturday's
>performance, with an altered side, was far more impressive.

>Personally, I don't care whether the team is rotated or not; if you
>have a manager who has strong ideas and, more importantly, a long-term
>vision, and who has proven he can win major trophies with those
>methods, you have to trust him. If we had another proven top manager
>who didn't rotate, then he would have his own good reasons for that
>approach.

>The facts actually suggest that Rafa's rotation policy works; not that
>the facts are ever allowed to get in the way of a good story.

>Too much football punditry is based on snap assessments, tired old
>clichs and perpetuated myths. Falsehoods are presented as truths,
>simply because people don't bother to check the validity of what they
>are saying. Misconceptions are rife. This past week has seen the
>criticism of rotation intensify, and also seen the quality of the
>players called into question, amongst other things.

>Rotation is part of the forward-thinking modern management that Rafa is
>all about. And the innovators in life are those who look forward, not
>backwards. Bill Shankly was an innovator. He did things his way. He
>changed things at Liverpool, updated them. There was no instant
>success, and there was also a seven-year hiatus between his 2nd and 3rd
>league titles, but boy did he deliver. Shankly didn't look to what won
>the league 20 years earlier, but what would win it this season, or the
>next.

>The aim of joining Oliver Anderson to write The Red Review was to get a
>more accurate assessment of what goes on on the pitch. Things like
>comparing the Reds' results when Gerrard plays on the right to when he
>plays centrally; how the team defend set pieces; who tends to be most
>involved in the 'business end' of goals beyond a simple assist; how
>many mistakes players make that cost the team goals; which players help
>the team to better results; and so on.

>It's about being better informed. It's not about meaningless stats, but
>detailed tactical assessments on what works and what doesn't. It's easy
>to mock zonal marking, slate rotation, say Steven Gerrard is wasted on
>the right, and call Luis Garcia a liability, but is any of it actually
>true?

>Zonal marking

>Let's start with the grand folly that is zonal marking - or so you
>might have been led to think. Or maybe you've read this column before,
>and discovered that Liverpool were actually the most successful team at
>defending set pieces last season?

>In 2005/06 the Reds conceded only four league goals from corners and
>indirect free-kicks; or one every nine games, compared with Chelsea,
>the next-best team, and their rate of one every six games.

>This season the Reds' figure stands at one such goal conceded from ten
>league games, and that was way back on the opening day; so a further
>improvement. And yet still, despite all this, not a single game goes by
>without zonal marking being mentioned by commentators, with the
>inference that Liverpool are dodgy at set pieces.

>Luis Garcia is a luxury suited only to European matches

>Luis Garcia has now scored 28 goals in two and a bit seasons. All from
>open play. That's a great record, especially as he doesn't play every
>game, and is mostly a midfielder.

>In his first season he scored the crucial Champions League goals, which
>no one can forget, and he's got three in this year's competition
>already. However, last season he was 'directly involved' in more
>Liverpool goals per-90 minutes of Premiership football than any other
>player (involvement being based on the final three players to touch the
>ball in the scoring of any goal). His best form was in the English
>game, to which some feel he is not suited. He also leads the club's
>standings in the league this season, with an even more impressive rate.
>He makes things happen.

>Of course, he also has those days when nothing goes right. But isn't it
>time we learned to live with his faults, because it's the good things
>he does that ultimately make a difference, and often in big games?

>It's also worth remembering that not once since his arrival has he
>given the ball away and it led directly to an opposition goal (it might
>have indirectly at times, further down the line in a move, but then
>that can be said of anyone who concedes possession).

>Give me a Garcia over a player who only ever does the simple thing and
>never has the bottle to try something special - the kind of thing
>needed in the final third.

>Steven Gerrard is better in the centre

>Last season for Liverpool, Gerrard played over 1500 minutes on the
>right of midfield, compared with more than 2600 minutes centrally
>(split fairly evenly between a standard midfield role, and that of the
>second forward). He was productive wherever he played, scoring and
>creating aplenty, although his personal figures were slightly higher in
>a central role.

>But Liverpool won by far the most points (in all competitions, using
>three points for cup wins as well) when he was on the right wing: 2.30
>per game, compared with 1.89 when central. On the whole, the fixtures
>where he was used on the right were arguably tougher than average, and
>predominately away games.

>Isn't it Bentez's job to win games, rather than make the side merely
>a showcase for Steven Gerrard's great talents? Isn't it about getting
>the best out of all eleven players, with the correct blend? Gerrard
>might catch the eye more centrally, but results tend to be better when
>he's on the right.

>But the right wing is just a starting position. When Gerrard drifts
>inside he can quickly change the dynamics of a game; putting a defence
>under pressure with his movement and creating space for others, as he
>did for the third goal this weekend.

>With Sissoko and Alonso the type of midfielders who rarely get ahead of
>the ball, it needs darting runs infield from the wings; so long as
>others cover the captain when he wanders, and that's down to the two
>central players a lot of the time. The bonus is that when Gerrard stays
>out wide he can deliver superb crosses, while also having the stamina,
>pace and tackling ability to do the ugly work, too.

>Peter Crouch is not a goalscorer

>Eight goals for Crouch for the Reds this season, and 21 in total. Add
>11 for England, and you have 32 goals in a fraction less than 11
>months. Include his Southampton goals since the start of 2005 and it
>takes him to 42 in two months short of two years.

>When will people ever take him seriously as a goalscorer?

>Rotation, and the new 'Tinkerman'

>What I don't get is that going into last weekend's fixtures, Bentez
>had made only one change more than Alex Ferguson in the Premiership:
>30, to 29. Chelsea were the third-most rotated team. So rotation, as a
>concept, doesn't work? Hmm...

>Meanwhile, Arsenal kept the same team as the weekend before, and
>dropped two more points at home. No one blamed it on having a settled
>side. But why should they?

>Another irritant is that rotation has been heavily criticised after
>Liverpool defeats this season - but the '99 games since last
>unchanged line-up' got brought up as a criticism too, as if it was been
>a problem for 99 games. Which, clearly, is insane. Why did no one
>actually bother to look at the results over those 99 games?

>Let me remind people that despite the stuttering start to this season,
>Liverpool had won 60 out of the previous 100 games, which is easy to
>work out at 60%. Or in other words, the kind of win percentage that
>used to land Liverpool the league. (The average over those 18 league
>titles is also 60% of games won.)

>Times have changed. As an example, the Reds secured the league in 1984
>with a mere 52.4% win rating, drawing 14 games and losing six of the 42
>matches. That many draws alone would be the same as losing more than
>eight games in the modern points system, and that's on top of the six
>actual defeats; so the dropped points would now be the same as 14
>defeats in a season (or 12-13 in a 38 game season).

>I don't wish to knock that great side's achievement, as it was a case
>of doing what was required at the time (not to mention it being part of
>a stunning treble). But that was back then. Alex Ferguson never rotated
>in 1986, when he took charge of Manchester United; but he has for the
>last decade or so. He moved with the times.

>The Reds' 99

...

read more »

 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by alkami.. » Fri, 03 Nov 2006 02:43:20

Quote:


> >Comments: talks about Rotation, Garcia - ***or not?, Gerrard - right
> >or centre?, Crouch, etc etc.

> It's not really his "rotating" that's giving Liverpool problems it's
> who he is rotating!  Very few managers in their right mind would leave
> Gerrard on the bench for any match barring the odd Cup match. Players
> have to be confident to play well and that's hard to do when you never
> know when your next match will be. Rotation for some positions and
> players is fine, but you have to have a backbone in the team that
> believe in themselves and go out there thinking they are the best at
> their club. This breeds self confidence in what they are doing and
> good form usually follows. All partizan thoughts aside Liverpool have
> a good squad with some very good players but it's evident when you
> watch them play this season that their confidence levels are low.
> Sammy Hypia for example looks scared to death of making a mistake,
> he's obviously a good player but his confidence looks shot.

Due to my insane work schedule this season I've hardly been able to
watch any 'pool games lately so all I've had to go on are opinions on
RSS and USFCL and match reports online......but what stands out to me
by far and away as the most striking obvious problem is the disparity
in home and away results; which could support your lack of confidence
argument. What the team needs ASAP are a couple of good results away
from home to snap out of it.

 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by 7 » Fri, 03 Nov 2006 03:29:14

Quote:

> It's not really his "rotating" that's giving Liverpool problems it's
> who he is rotating!  Very few managers in their right mind would leave
> Gerrard on the bench for any match barring the odd Cup match.

As opposed to squeeze the last drop out of him to hell what might
happen later? Only this season had Gerrard seen significant bench time
(he's sit out what? 3 games at most?), and that has something to do
with the copious amount of football he has had to play in the last 48
months or so, as does his recent dip of form.

There is a core in this Liverpool team. And that core is: at least 2
out of (Alonso, Gerrard, Sissoko) will start in non-insignificant games
in midfield -- and usually all 3 will start. The defense centered
around Carragher and Finnan. Sadly, Carragher's form isn't good this
season.

Squad-rotation criticism so far has made it sounds as if the decision
to whether start Alonso, Zenden, or Gerrard is a random flip of coin.

Quote:
> Sammy Hypia for example looks scared to death of making a mistake,
> he's obviously a good player but his confidence looks shot.

Not yesterday :-)

But being part of a defense that developed an alarming tendency to leak
goals of late often does that to one's confidence. I don't blame any
individual -- they just haven't collectively, found their groove.

 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by RED DEVI » Fri, 03 Nov 2006 04:18:30


Quote:


>> It's not really his "rotating" that's giving Liverpool problems it's
>> who he is rotating!  Very few managers in their right mind would leave
>> Gerrard on the bench for any match barring the odd Cup match.

>As opposed to squeeze the last drop out of him to hell what might
>happen later? Only this season had Gerrard seen significant bench time
>(he's sit out what? 3 games at most?), and that has something to do
>with the copious amount of football he has had to play in the last 48
>months or so, as does his recent dip of form.

He's played more than the average EPL player? Don't kid yourself, he
wants in the team and Liverpool need him, without him you are a team
that would be in a relegation struggle.

Quote:
>There is a core in this Liverpool team. And that core is: at least 2
>out of (Alonso, Gerrard, Sissoko) will start in non-insignificant games
>in midfield -- and usually all 3 will start. The defense centered
>around Carragher and Finnan. Sadly, Carragher's form isn't good this
>season.

Very ordinary player, he has no real pace. Always found out at the top
level

Quote:
>Squad-rotation criticism so far has made it sounds as if the decision
>to whether start Alonso, Zenden, or Gerrard is a random flip of coin.

>> Sammy Hypia for example looks scared to death of making a mistake,
>> he's obviously a good player but his confidence looks shot.

>Not yesterday :-)

No, only when he actually has a decent player up against him. but as a
matter of fact he looked very dodgy yesterday in a couple of
situations.

Quote:
>But being part of a defense that developed an alarming tendency to leak
>goals of late often does that to one's confidence. I don't blame any
>individual -- they just haven't collectively, found their groove.

Hypia is a better player than he's been showing but his enemy is age,
he was never the fastest player and he's lost a step. Very slow now
and can't cope when up against the better players.
 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by MH » Fri, 03 Nov 2006 04:05:35

Quote:



>>>It's not really his "rotating" that's giving Liverpool problems it's
>>>who he is rotating!  Very few managers in their right mind would leave
>>>Gerrard on the bench for any match barring the odd Cup match.

>>As opposed to squeeze the last drop out of him to hell what might
>>happen later? Only this season had Gerrard seen significant bench time
>>(he's sit out what? 3 games at most?), and that has something to do
>>with the copious amount of football he has had to play in the last 48
>>months or so, as does his recent dip of form.

> He's played more than the average EPL player? Don't kid yourself, he
> wants in the team and Liverpool need him, without him you are a team
> that would be in a relegation struggle.

Gerrard has played every EPL game so far this season -- 10 games started
which is more than anyone else in the team except Reina. Alonso and
Finnan are next at 9, then Hyppia, Carragher and Sissoko at 8.

So since the issue this year is that Liverpool are not doing as well as
they should in the League (they are doing fine in the CL and Cups so
far),  you cannot blame that lack of success on Gerrard's being rotated
out of the lineup -- he hasn't been.  In fact, his indifferent form
might indicate he could use a little bit more rest. He played the entire
90 minutes in Liverpool's losses to Everton, Man Utd, Chelsea and Bolton
and in the draw with Sheffield United.

In all competitions (not updated for yesterday) the stats are slightly
different.  Finnan 15, Alonso, Carragher, Sissoko 13, Gerrard 12.
However, Gerrard came on as a sub in 3 games, taking his total
appearances to the same as Finnan, Alonso, and Sissoko.  With
international appearances, he has probably been busier than any of them,
with the possible exception of Finnan. Finnan didn't have to play in a
World Cup last summer.

I do also remember Liverpool winning some crucial CL ties a few years
ago without Gerrard, so I sincerely doubt that they would be struggling
against relegation without him, especially as , with the money they'd
get for transferring him to Real or Chelsea, they could buy two really
good midfielders and still have some change left over.

As the author of this well thought out article , posted here by Wil,
points out, it is important not to let perceptions get in the way of facts.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>>There is a core in this Liverpool team. And that core is: at least 2
>>out of (Alonso, Gerrard, Sissoko) will start in non-insignificant games
>>in midfield -- and usually all 3 will start. The defense centered
>>around Carragher and Finnan. Sadly, Carragher's form isn't good this
>>season.

> Very ordinary player, he has no real pace. Always found out at the top
> level

>>Squad-rotation criticism so far has made it sounds as if the decision
>>to whether start Alonso, Zenden, or Gerrard is a random flip of coin.

>>>Sammy Hypia for example looks scared to death of making a mistake,
>>>he's obviously a good player but his confidence looks shot.

>>Not yesterday :-)

> No, only when he actually has a decent player up against him. but as a
> matter of fact he looked very dodgy yesterday in a couple of
> situations.

>>But being part of a defense that developed an alarming tendency to leak
>>goals of late often does that to one's confidence. I don't blame any
>>individual -- they just haven't collectively, found their groove.

> Hypia is a better player than he's been showing but his enemy is age,
> he was never the fastest player and he's lost a step. Very slow now
> and can't cope when up against the better players.

 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by gabb.. » Fri, 03 Nov 2006 07:10:49

Quote:

> drivel

asdflja;orweiuw;lekfjagl;esiuweroiuj
 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by 7 » Fri, 03 Nov 2006 08:47:37

Quote:

> He's played more than the average EPL player? Don't kid yourself, he
> wants in the team and Liverpool need him, without him you are a team
> that would be in a relegation struggle.

Hmm, so you DID have a brain by pass recently.

Quote:
> Very ordinary player, he has no real pace. Always found out at the top
> level

Yes, like against Juventus or Chelsea.

Quote:
> Hypia is a better player than he's been showing but his enemy is age,
> he was never the fastest player and he's lost a step. Very slow now
> and can't cope when up against the better players.

Like Ronnie Johnsen in '99?
 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by pb4use.. » Fri, 03 Nov 2006 09:27:18

Quote:

> As the author of this well thought out article , posted here by Wil,
> points out, it is important not to let perceptions get in the way of facts.

Yeah, this article was definitely a good choice to post here.

If it had one shortcoming, I thought it was the lack of reasoning about
why squad rotation is becoming common. The article mentions that when
Alex Ferguson arrived at Man United, he didn't rotate his squad, but it
doesn't mention a key difference between then and now: back then, the
team only had a few international calibre players; today, it has 20.

Due to the depth that's available at the bigger clubs, the dropoff from
starters to reserves is smaller, and that changes the logic of
coaching. Now, when a player's performance is degraded by wear and
tear, a big team is well served to call upon other options while that
individual recuperates fully.

P

 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by alkami.. » Sat, 04 Nov 2006 00:49:04



> > He's played more than the average EPL player? Don't kid yourself, he
> > wants in the team and Liverpool need him, without him you are a team
> > that would be in a relegation struggle.

> Hmm, so you DID have a brain by pass recently.

> > Very ordinary player, he has no real pace. Always found out at the top
> > level

> Yes, like against Juventus or Chelsea.

And let's not forget how woeful he was against Milan in the UCL final.
 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by MH » Sat, 04 Nov 2006 00:58:23

Quote:


>>As the author of this well thought out article , posted here by Wil,
>>points out, it is important not to let perceptions get in the way of facts.

> Yeah, this article was definitely a good choice to post here.

> If it had one shortcoming, I thought it was the lack of reasoning about
> why squad rotation is becoming common. The article mentions that when
> Alex Ferguson arrived at Man United, he didn't rotate his squad, but it
> doesn't mention a key difference between then and now: back then, the
> team only had a few international calibre players; today, it has 20.

That might be a bit of an overstatement, though certainly, having 4 or 5
internationals on the bench was not common back then.

Man Utd ca. 1986 would have had (may not all still have been in the
squad at the same time as I may be out by a year or two as to when
some joined or left the club):

Leighton (Scotland international)
Albiston (former Scotland international)
Duxbury (former England international)
McGrath (Ireland international)
Moran (Ireland ?)
Strachan (Scotland)
Olsen (Denmark)
Robson (England)
Whiteside (N. Ireland)
Stapleton (Ireland)
Hughes (Wales)

Muhren (Holland) may have been there as well.

Quote:

> Due to the depth that's available at the bigger clubs, the dropoff from
> starters to reserves is smaller, and that changes the logic of
> coaching.

I don't think it is only that. There are far more matches in Europe for
the big clubs now, and fewer in the league (league was 22 teams then)
and the domestic cups (League cup had quite a few two leg ties and was
taken more seriously in general). So the total number of matches was not
that different.  However, the competitiveness of the league was higher
back then, as the gap between haves and have nots was not as big - hence
resting your star players was a less viable strategy in the leagues or
even in the cup competitions.

Another difference that is really important is that in the mid 80s in
England, you were still limited to one sub that had to be named before
the game. Nowadays with three subs, you can make tactical substitutions
with a lot less risk. Hence you can leave out some of your stronger
players against weak opposition, knowing that if things aren't going
well you can still bring them on to change the game in the second half.
This makes and enormous difference to coaching strategies.

  Now, when a player's performance is degraded by wear and

Quote:
> tear, a big team is well served to call upon other options while that
> individual recuperates fully.

> P

 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by Lléo » Mon, 06 Nov 2006 01:37:20



Quote:
> Another difference that is really important is that in the mid 80s in
> England, you were still limited to one sub that had to be named before the
> game.

Why was that? I thought that you could name only three players in the subs
bench (which was, in itself, a big limitation for coaches).

But only one sub? How did that work? The coach had to tell the referee who
was the player coming out too?

--
Llo

 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by MH » Mon, 06 Nov 2006 07:33:48

Quote:



>>Another difference that is really important is that in the mid 80s in
>>England, you were still limited to one sub that had to be named before the
>>game.

> Why was that? I thought that you could name only three players in the subs
> bench (which was, in itself, a big limitation for coaches).

> But only one sub? How did that work? The coach had to tell the referee who
> was the player coming out too?

Well originally there were no subs at all.  Then the English league
moved to allowing one sub, named before the match.  This was still in
effect up to the end of the 1985 season, and I don't know when it
changed after that (probably pretty soon)

It meant players had to be more flexible.  If the sub was an attacking
player (usually the case for tactical reasons), then it meant that if a
defender got injured, someone had to move back.  There had to be someone
capable and willing to play in goal too.

Obviously the manager didn't have to designate who was being replaced
ahead of the game.  I tried to look up the history of these changes but
can only find that subs were first allowed in 1965 (for injuries only)
and then a year later for any reason.  Some famous "super subs" include
Fairclough of Liverpool.

Quote:

> --
> Llo

 
 
 

Interesting article on Liverpool's start to the season

Post by James Farra » Tue, 07 Nov 2006 07:30:09

Quote:

>Well originally there were no subs at all.  Then the English league
>moved to allowing one sub, named before the match.  This was still in
>effect up to the end of the 1985 season, and I don't know when it
>changed after that (probably pretty soon)

I know that in the 1994-5 season, at least in the Fotball League (the
Premier League may have been ahead, it ceratinly moved to 5 subs
first), whilst three substitutes were permitted to be named, one of
the three had to be a goalkeeper.
 
 
 

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