Sport Today

by **Gerrit Stol** » Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:00:00

How stupid must one be to use a Football match to indulge in senseless
***? Even more, how senseless must one be to almost beat another
human being to death? Enough is enough. Fifa doesn't want to ban
Germany. That shouldn't stop Germany from pulling out of the Cup, even
if that means a ban for the next WC in Japan and South Korea.

While the *** of the English fans might be excused because of
provocations by the Police and the Tunisian fans (a pretty cheap
excuse, if you ask me), the *** of the German fans in Paris might
be excused because of the chaotic handling of ticket distribution (as
cheap an excuse), the *** in Lens can't be excused.

The people involved had no intrerest in the match, had no interest in
buying a ticket, weren't provocated, but simply crossed the
French-German border to start some clashes. Most of them were known
hooligans, some of them even Neo-Nazis. They had fax-mashines and
mobile phones and arranged the whole battles weeks before the match.

A French police officer was almost killed and remains hospitalized in
critical condition (brain damage). The German Football Federation
(DFB) offered his relatives all the support and help they need and
apologized to France and Fifa for the ***. But is this enough?

I know that some of you don't think it a good solution to punish the
majority because a minority of stupid thugs uses the WC as a platform
for their *** instincts. But where to draw the line? If people
almost get killed, it is enough.

Germany needs to go home and step back from its bid to host the WC in
2006. For me, this WC is ruined. I'm sick of it, I hope Iran beats
Germany. I'm not interested in any success of Germany. I'm not
interested in the eventual winners of the cup. I'm out of here. Good
bye

Gerrit

by **taj sid** » Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:00:00

*snip*

Gerrit, I understand your emotions. Alas, it's still not possible for
humanity to celebrate a wonderful sporting event without humanoids messing
it all up. In an old anticivilization, such as exists on Earth, the bad
always seems to obscure the good. However, no matter what evils the
"devils" propagate, it should not prevent us from pursuing what is good
and joyous.
Regards.

Taj

by **Murx** » Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> The people involved had no intrerest in the match, had no interest in
> buying a ticket, weren't provocated, but simply crossed the
> French-German border to start some clashes. Most of them were known
> hooligans, some of them even Neo-Nazis. They had fax-mashines and
> mobile phones and arranged the whole battles weeks before the match.
> A French police officer was almost killed and remains hospitalized in
> critical condition (brain damage). The German Football Federation
> (DFB) offered his relatives all the support and help they need and
> apologized to France and Fifa for the ***. But is this enough?

I learn the one who probably did this with more than 2.0 promilleis going
to jail for 3 month. A couple of others are in custody.
If they return, all of them should be charged with attempted ***.

Quote:

> I know that some of you don't think it a good solution to punish the
> majority because a minority of stupid thugs uses the WC as a platform
> for their *** instincts. But where to draw the line? If people
> almost get killed, it is enough.

> Germany needs to go home and step back from its bid to host the WC in
> 2006.

Agree .

Quote:

> For me, this WC is ruined. I'm sick of it, I hope Iran beats
> Germany. I'm not interested in any success of Germany. I'm not
> interested in the eventual winners of the cup. I'm out of here. Good
> bye

> Gerrit

Gerrit, cool down, will ya ?Yes, Germany should step back from its bid.
I don't know wether it would help to withdraw the german team.
If so, i'd approve of this.
But get real.
The aim of this deliberate organized act is to ruin the WC.
If we let that happen they won.

Murx.

by **Murx** » Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> Gerrit, cool down, will ya ?Yes, Germany should step back from its bid.
> I don't know wether it would help to withdraw the german team.
> If so, i'd approve of this.
> But get real.
> The aim of this deliberate organized act is to ruin the WC.
> If we let that happen they won.

Gerrit, I honor your attitude.And i feel like shit too.
But please come to your senses.
This had nothing to do with soccer.
This was a political act, commited by the german neo-nazi scene.
And the obvious aim is to ruin the WC, and finally throw this country
back another 60 years.
And if we react like you suggest and do, this thing runs their way.

Murx

Quote:

> Murx.

by **Paul Medcraf** » Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>The people involved had no intrerest in the match, had no interest in
>buying a ticket, weren't provocated, but simply crossed the
>French-German border to start some clashes. Most of them were known
>hooligans, some of them even Neo-Nazis. They had fax-mashines and
>mobile phones and arranged the whole battles weeks before the match.

exactly, so why should you want to punish the german fans like yourself who
are decent people who want to watch their team play football?

Quote:

>Germany needs to go home and step back from its bid to host the WC in
>2006. For me, this WC is ruined. I'm sick of it, I hope Iran beats
>Germany. I'm not interested in any success of Germany. I'm not
>interested in the eventual winners of the cup. I'm out of here. Good
>bye

england should withdraw too. the fa has behaved disgracefully over the
entire episode, going back on their deal to support germany's bid, then
supporting blatter instead of johansson at the last minute. combine that
with the hooligans and our pathetic display last night and its embarassing
to be an english football supporter at the moment.

cheers,

paul

by **Bruce Scott T** » Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:00:00

[snip understandable commentary]

Quote:

>Germany needs to go home and step back from its bid to host the WC in
>2006. For me, this WC is ruined. I'm sick of it, I hope Iran beats
>Germany. I'm not interested in any success of Germany. I'm not
>interested in the eventual winners of the cup. I'm out of here. Good
>bye

Sorry to hear that, Gerrit. This is the result the Nazis want. We have
on the contrary to stick it out and do our best.

cu,
Bruce

--
"That's the old ecological tale that explains humans' inability to fully
appreciate global warming. To wit: if you drop a frog in a pan of hot
water, it jumps out. If you drop it in a pan of cold water, then turn
the heat up slowly, you can roast it to death." -- Clive Thompson

by **Faustus1** » Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:00:00

No, Germany and England should not pull out. The idiots who beat the French
officer should be prosecuted with force, and as far as the rest of the rioters
go, if it requires calling in soldiers, so be it. This is a sickening mess that
must be eradicated. But, to take away the joy and passion of millions of fans
around the world (not to mention the players) is nonsense. It won't in any
manner stop the thugs.

Gordon
*******************************************
-1 F.C. Kaiserslautern, Deutscher Elf , und US Elf -
"If you desire to drown yourself, don't waste your time in shallow waters."
*******************************************

by **Huw Morr** » Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> > Germany needs to go home and step back from its bid to host the WC in
> > 2006.
> Agree .

As much as I'd like to see England stage the World Cup in 2006, I don't
see why these mindless morons should force Germany out of the contest.
If the Germans host it, I'm sure it will be a wonderful tournament.
Similarly for the English. This is not the time for knee-jerk reactions.

Huw

--
Note: Mail to the above address will bounce. Please reply to:

by **Christian Mat** » Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:00:00

: As much as I'd like to see England stage the World Cup in 2006, I don't
: see why these mindless morons should force Germany out of the contest.
: If the Germans host it, I'm sure it will be a wonderful tournament.
: Similarly for the English. This is not the time for knee-jerk reactions.

: Huw

Hello Huw,

thanx....

here are some additional informations from the Germany:

1) Uwe Reinders (former German international who played for Bordeaux) and
Gernot Rohr (a German player who became french citizen) will organize
a game between the 1982 German and French team. The money will be for the
family of the French policeman.

2) The Berlin police officers will collect money among the German policemen
for Monsieur Nivel.

3) A rich business man from Munich will also give money.

4) The ARD (German TV) has made an account to collect money for Monsieur
Nivel.

5) RTL Germany has published the name of the hooligan who injured Monsieur
Nivel and filmed his house. Yesterday the hooligans house (a tatoo shop)
was demolished by some people...

6) Most Germans would accept the DFB-Offer to quit France

7) The DFB probably will organize a benefit match for Monsieur Nivel.

... and this guy was no Neo-Nazi. He is member of a Rocker Gang.

by **Chris Raistri** » Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>How stupid must one be to use a Football match to indulge in senseless
>***? Even more, how senseless must one be to almost beat another
>human being to death? Enough is enough. Fifa doesn't want to ban
>Germany. That shouldn't stop Germany from pulling out of the Cup, even
>if that means a ban for the next WC in Japan and South Korea.

And provide the thugs with a result? Isn't that exactly what they
want? More publicity. "Yugoslavia couldn't put the team out but we
did it!"

It's just another form of terrorism.

Quote:

>While the *** of the English fans might be excused because of
>provocations by the Police and the Tunisian fans (a pretty cheap
>excuse, if you ask me),

Which isn't actually being used. It's the difference between
mitigated and excused.

Quote:

>the *** of the German fans in Paris might
>be excused because of the chaotic handling of ticket distribution (as
>cheap an excuse), the *** in Lens can't be excused.

No it can't but were you involved? I doubt it. So don't feel guilty.

[snip]

Quote:

>I know that some of you don't think it a good solution to punish the
>majority because a minority of stupid thugs uses the WC as a platform
>for their *** instincts. But where to draw the line? If people
>almost get killed, it is enough.
>Germany needs to go home and step back from its bid to host the WC in
>2006. For me, this WC is ruined. I'm sick of it, I hope Iran beats
>Germany. I'm not interested in any success of Germany. I'm not
>interested in the eventual winners of the cup. I'm out of here. Good
>bye

Don't let the bastards grind you down.

--
Cheers,

Chris

by **Chris Raistri** » Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:00:00

On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:26:02 +0200, Murx

Quote:

>> A French police officer was almost killed and remains hospitalized in
>> critical condition (brain damage).
>I learn the one who probably did this with more than 2.0 promilleis going
>to jail for 3 month. A couple of others are in custody.
>If they return, all of them should be charged with attempted ***.

According to reports in the UK, all are facing charges for attempted
*** and face life.

AFAIK French law is harder in terms of aiding and abetting.

--
Cheers,

Chris

by **Gerrit Stol** » Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>>I know that some of you don't think it a good solution to punish the
>>majority because a minority of stupid thugs uses the WC as a platform
>>for their *** instincts. But where to draw the line? If people
>>almost get killed, it is enough.
>Yes, and no.
>Yes, it is not worth it to have a world cup in a place where people will
>get killed in this way, if we know it will happen. It is not an acceptable
>cost for the event, in other words.

The problem would be to find a place where we can be sure that it
doesn't happen. There is no such place. The majority of hooligans from
Germany are upper-middle-class people with good paying jobs that
enable them to travel to any place. Not in such large numbers but
enough to cause real troubles.

Quote:

>One other thing worries me, and that is this: sometimes these spectacular
>crimes are used to cut our freedoms. Here in the USA, some pretty
>protofascist measures were implemented after the mysterious crash of that
>New York-Paris airplane, and some very *** things were said (specially
>towards the Arabs). Now that it appears that it was not a "terrorist", but
>an accident (or maybe a military error, so the rumor goes), the protofascist
>measures have not been taken back.
>I would not like to see it become too easy for the protofascist crowd to
>cook up a little bit of terrorism just to get a state of siege implemented.
>Yes, it has been done before; in fact I believe Germany has had some
>spectacular applications of that technique on her soil.

Those restrictions needn't cut the freedoms of other people, if
applied to hooligans exclusively. The majority of the German hooligans
are regtistered as just that in the archives of the German Federal
Police. We knew that these people had the intention of causing trouble
in France, but nothing happened to prevent them from travelling to
Lens. I'm not a supporter of protofascist measures, but something
needs to be done. During those tournaments, they should be restricted
from travelling abroad and ordered to register at their local police
station on a daily basis.

Quote:

>And so it is a ***, tricky problem. That was why I suggested that the
>tournament not be held in Europe for a while. The same type of consideration
>may apply to South America, but hopefully not. I think the rest of the
>planet is still ok for this event.

I'm pessimistic. Some years ago they didn't use mobile phones and
fax-mashines. They're organized and I doubt that a far away
destination would prevent them from making the trip. The only
solution, sadly, seems to be tougher laws and the application of the
same. Furthermore, we finally have to realize that a country or
society isn't illiberal because authorities and the police crack down
on hooligans. It needs to be done to protect the peaceful majority.

Apparently, the German authorities weren't very cooperative in the
run-up to the Cup. The German Interior Mininstry had denied such
claims, which makes it all the more likely. There's no smoke without a
fire :-(

Gerrit

to reply, remove nospam* from my adress

by **Gerrit Stol** » Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>> > Germany needs to go home and step back from its bid to host the WC in
>> > 2006.
>> Agree .
>As much as I'd like to see England stage the World Cup in 2006, I don't
>see why these mindless morons should force Germany out of the contest.
>If the Germans host it, I'm sure it will be a wonderful tournament.
>Similarly for the English. This is not the time for knee-jerk reactions.

Huw, this wouldn't be a knee-jerk reactions. I really would love to
attend the WC in either England or here in Germany. But, imo, wether
its the Olympics or the WC or the EC, being host nation is something
special. The rest of the world honors the host nation by awarding them
the right to host the games or tournaments. Germany and England don't
deserve this honor.

Gerrit

to reply, remove nospam* from my adress

by **Ingo Delo** » Fri, 26 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>> > Germany needs to go home and step back from its bid to host the WC in
>> > 2006.

>> Agree .

>As much as I'd like to see England stage the World Cup in 2006, I don't
>see why these mindless morons should force Germany out of the contest.
>If the Germans host it, I'm sure it will be a wonderful tournament.
>Similarly for the English. This is not the time for knee-jerk reactions.

Huw, thank you very much for your kind words.
It is just that for the time being I don't care about what those
morons intend or what they think. The pictures of the attacked
policeman laying on the floor are too much contrasting the peace- and
colorful footballfestival I attended the week before that incident in
Lens.

Basically one shouldn't bow to those***heads, of course.
So it might be better to go on

Cheers!

Ingo
--
Ingo Deloie

"Die H?lle - das sind die anderen" Jean-Paul Sartre

Sport Today

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!

Enough is enough: Germany should pull out of the Cup!