Thoughts on tonight's game

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by Phantom » Sun, 15 Jun 2003 19:04:15


England turned in a typically crusaders-like performance. Did the basics,
huge defence. Even survived with 13 men. You can't complain about this
England team.
The AB's played ok but didn't threaten enough. It was hard to get flow in
the game with the refs whistle going every minute. It was baffling that he
would award a penalty to NZ even though the had the ball. More of a
disadvantage than an advantage.

Debutants
Rokocoko - Good driving play at the start. Didn't see much ball after that
Nonu - Solid game. Was never given enough room to be able to make the breaks
he's known for in Super 12.

Other thoughts.
Umaga dropped the ball 3 times. Terrible game from the player many like to
call "best player in the world"
Caleb Ralph had a solid game for all his accusations of being slow and
useless. Didn't look very slow when easily keeping up with Howlett in the
AB's only (albeit non)try.
Reuben Thorne also had a solid game.

Lineouts were excellent. Can't blame Oliver, Jack or Williams.
McCaw had a huge game. Always a standout.

Would like to see Mealamu starting the next test. Made some good gains in
his limited match time.

Seemed to be a lack of cohesion in the backline. Passing didn't seem very
fluid. Lots of stuttering and stopping and jinking and ***ing about.

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by Angu » Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:18:05

Quote:

> England turned in a typically crusaders-like performance. Did the basics,
> huge defence. Even survived with 13 men. You can't complain about this
> England team.

Yes you can if you didn't look at the game entirely from a "I support
AB" stance.
England DID NOT do the basics well. They got ***ed in the first half
in the lineouts and couldn't hold on to the ball without knocking if
forward. Thompson who I so rate arround the fiels was awfull throwing
in and there was no organisation in the offensive lineout.
Defensively we were off the ball to with the AB's making yards
seaminly at will through the ruck and out wide.
The Big names really stood up though when it mattered.

<snip>

Quote:
> Lineouts were excellent. Can't blame Oliver, Jack or Williams.
> McCaw had a huge game. Always a standout.

or England's basics were not good here.
Quote:
> Would like to see Mealamu starting the next test. Made some good gains in
> his limited match time.

> Seemed to be a lack of cohesion in the backline. Passing didn't seem very
> fluid. Lots of stuttering and stopping and jinking and ***ing about.

Or Englands defence (second half) gave them no options.

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by John Hil » Tue, 17 Jun 2003 02:15:19


Quote:
>Yes you can if you didn't look at the game entirely from a "I support
>AB" stance.
>England DID NOT do the basics well. They got ***ed in the first half
>in the lineouts and couldn't hold on to the ball without knocking if
>forward. Thompson who I so rate arround the fiels was awfull throwing
>in and there was no organisation in the offensive lineout.
>Defensively we were off the ball to with the AB's making yards
>seaminly at will through the ruck and out wide.
>The Big names really stood up though when it mattered.

I thought England were quite poor for them.

JH

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by Greig Blanchet » Tue, 17 Jun 2003 02:53:18

On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 18:15:19 +0100, John Hill

Quote:


>>Yes you can if you didn't look at the game entirely from a "I support
>>AB" stance.
>>England DID NOT do the basics well. They got ***ed in the first half
>>in the lineouts and couldn't hold on to the ball without knocking if
>>forward. Thompson who I so rate arround the fiels was awfull throwing
>>in and there was no organisation in the offensive lineout.
>>Defensively we were off the ball to with the AB's making yards
>>seaminly at will through the ruck and out wide.
>>The Big names really stood up though when it mattered.

>I thought England were quite poor for them.

>JH

There's a logarithmic ratio in action here. When a team plays minnows,
they can really turn it on, when they lose they completely***up.
Somewhere in those ranges is when a team wins by a point or two.
England played the game they were allowed to by the opposition and
came away with a win. They played quite well.
 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by John Hil » Tue, 17 Jun 2003 03:41:04



Quote:
>There's a logarithmic ratio in action here. When a team plays minnows,
>they can really turn it on, when they lose they completely***up.
>Somewhere in those ranges is when a team wins by a point or two.
>England played the game they were allowed to by the opposition

And the ref.

Seriously the lineout was poor, the scrummaging flatfooted., Robbo was
neutralised and Johnny's kicking out of hand dreadful. So little
posession and little territory

JH

and

Quote:
>came away with a win. They played quite well.

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by rick bo » Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:04:28

On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 18:15:19 +0100, John Hill

Quote:

>I thought England were quite poor for them.

Yes, no doubt. But as I asked after the New Zealand-England game last
year, when all the England supporters said the same thing, how exactly
do you see England improving? John Williams, I think, waffled on last
year some exciting new talent coming through -- although they seem to
be playing in Canada from what I gather. Nobody else seemed to have
much in the way of real suggestions as to where this England team
could really improve on what was already on offer. Except that they
were definitely below par.

Which sounded to me like they had just come up against some proper
competition for once and were't having it all their own way, like they
were used to in the six nations.

So come on JH, put your money where you mouth is and talk us through
England's big improvement plans for the world cup.

New forwards? I can't see you getting much better than this lot. Maybe
Moody. But really, they're experienced, they're cunning, they're big
-- and they were outplayed. By a team playing its first game together.

Maybe the backs? Got some hot new talent in the cupboard? Or is just
Tindall and Greenwood again, who couldn't score a try against a back
line that looked as though had played netball all last season.

I'm all ears.

-- rick boyd

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by Damo » Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:30:37


Quote:
> Yes, no doubt. But as I asked after the New Zealand-England game last
> year, when all the England supporters said the same thing, how exactly
> do you see England improving? John Williams, I think, waffled on last
> year some exciting new talent coming through -- although they seem to
> be playing in Canada from what I gather.

What makes you think John Williams has the power to influence Woodwards
selection? Talking about up-and-coming talent is one thing, who makes it
into the squad is another...we can only suppose.

Quote:
> New forwards? I can't see you getting much better than this lot. Maybe
> Moody. But really, they're experienced, they're cunning, they're big
> -- and they were outplayed. By a team playing its first game together.

Not so much new fowards, just the first choice ones:
Woodman, Vickery, Grewcock, and as you mentioned Moody.

Quote:
> Maybe the backs? Got some hot new talent in the cupboard? Or is just
> Tindall and Greenwood again, who couldn't score a try against a back
> line that looked as though had played netball all last season.

It's a fair cop! Tindall and Greenwood are, to my mind, a problem. Tindall
has good strength in attack and excellent defensive skills but he is never
going to set the world alight with flair. As for Greenwood, I just think he
is right off form and I have never been his biggest fan. I would rather see
Noon running out and Johnston seems to be steadily improving.
Quote:
> I'm all ears.

> -- rick boyd

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by John Hil » Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:37:27



Quote:
>>I thought England were quite poor for them.

>Yes, no doubt. But as I asked after the New Zealand-England game last
>year, when all the England supporters said the same thing, how exactly
>do you see England improving? John Williams, I think, waffled on last
>year some exciting new talent coming through -- although they seem to
>be playing in Canada from what I gather. Nobody else seemed to have
>much in the way of real suggestions as to where this England team
>could really improve on what was already on offer. Except that they
>were definitely below par.

>Which sounded to me like they had just come up against some proper
>competition for once and were't having it all their own way, like they
>were used to in the six nations.

>So come on JH, put your money where you mouth is and talk us through
>England's big improvement plans for the world cup.

See my other posts. Particularly with reference to a couple of months
rest. A return to fitness of Moody and Dawson. Alternatives to the
Johnson/Kay combination. Options other than Robinson on the wing (he's
been found out and was well closed down. Vickery and White in the
Front row, maybe Greening at *** to help up the pace.

Quote:
>New forwards? I can't see you getting much better than this lot. Maybe
>Moody. But really, they're experienced, they're cunning, they're big
>-- and they were outplayed. By a team playing its first game together.

Only on planet Rick

Quote:

>Maybe the backs? Got some hot new talent in the cupboard? Or is just
>Tindall and Greenwood again, who couldn't score a try against a back
>line that looked as though had played netball all last season.

Yeah, yeah yeah Rick

JH

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>I'm all ears.

>-- rick boyd

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by John William » Wed, 18 Jun 2003 03:11:46

[...]

Quote:
>It's a fair cop! Tindall and Greenwood are, to my mind, a problem. Tindall
>has good strength in attack and excellent defensive skills but he is never
>going to set the world alight with flair. As for Greenwood, I just think he
>is right off form and I have never been his biggest fan. I would rather see
>Noon running out and Johnston seems to be steadily improving.

I thought the England centres had superb defensive games. Tindall
doing so didn't surprise me, but Greenwood did slightly. Noon in due
course - certainly in the next 18 months he'll be bound to get some
full caps through injury. Johnston has never done anything for me -
he's not got sufficient creativity or vision from what I've seen. He's
certainly not in the league of Greenwood at the moment. He's more like
a bigger, fitter Will Carling. Ollie Smith is a strong possibility for
the WC squad if fit too.

It'll be interesting to see what happens on next Saturday, but from
what I've seen over the last two weeks, top inside centres are the
rarest beasts in world rugby at the moment. Greenwood will do for me
leading into the WC and perhaps a bit longer.

Thinking about the two tests in NZ next year - it looks pretty
possible he'll get to see some more backs then. Not too many I hope!

One interesting thing is the number of English backs now getting top
7s experience, which highlighted so many NZ stars in the past.

A couple more youngsters to add to Rick's collection are Monye and
Haughton. Monye has a bigger younger brother. Fact! Still, it's
centres (12 and 13) that are needed, and not just in England.

--

Regards,
John Williams

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by Andy Mulhear » Wed, 18 Jun 2003 05:56:49


Quote:
> A couple more youngsters to add to Rick's collection are Monye and
> Haughton. Monye has a bigger younger brother. Fact! Still, it's
> centres (12 and 13) that are needed, and not just in England.

These two are scarey prospects at 7s in particular. I'd be interested to
see how they develop in the 15 man game. Though Haughton has had some
good games for Sarries.

Andy

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by rick bo » Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:17:41

On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 19:11:46 +0100, John Williams

Quote:

>I thought the England centres had superb defensive games. Tindall
>doing so didn't surprise me, but Greenwood did slightly.

You're right John, they did. But winning test matches thorugh defence
is only useful when  your opposiiton kicker misses four of his five
kicks at goal. And there may be some doubt as to whether the attack
they were defending against was much of an attack on the day, either.

Quote:
> Noon in due
>course - certainly in the next 18 months he'll be bound to get some
>full caps through injury. Johnston has never done anything for me -
>he's not got sufficient creativity or vision from what I've seen. He's
>certainly not in the league of Greenwood at the moment. He's more like
>a bigger, fitter Will Carling. Ollie Smith is a strong possibility for
>the WC squad if fit too.

So there may be a few new players. And a few to return from injury.

Well, I'm not exactly convinced at this stage. But we'll see.

-- rick boyd

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by rick bo » Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:22:07

On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:37:27 +0100, John Hill

Quote:

>See my other posts. Particularly with reference to a couple of months
>rest. A return to fitness of Moody and Dawson. Alternatives to the
>Johnson/Kay combination. Options other than Robinson on the wing (he's
>been found out and was well closed down. Vickery and White in the
>Front row, maybe Greening at *** to help up the pace.

So, all going well, in the best possible scenario, you might get back
to parity in the forwards. Because let's face it, theAll Blacks won;t
besetting aorund doing nothing for the rest of the season, will they?
This is their firstgame together and already they've got you stuffed
in the forwards. No, don't give me that planet Rick shit, you were
outplayed and if youwere honest you'd admit it.

The only thing your forwards have going for them is experience and low
cunning. That expertise in professional fouls and time wasting saved
the game for you.  

Quote:
>Yeah, yeah yeah Rick

Impressed though I am by your comprehensive argument, I was hoping for
a little more. Do we assume then that Greenwood and Tindall are as
good as you're likely to get? Will they be hoping for opponents that
drop the ball and look confused for the rest of the season?

-- rick boyd

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by John Hil » Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:00:07



Quote:
>See my other posts. Particularly with reference to a couple of months
>>rest. A return to fitness of Moody and Dawson. Alternatives to the
>>Johnson/Kay combination. Options other than Robinson on the wing (he's
>>been found out and was well closed down. Vickery and White in the
>>Front row, maybe Greening at *** to help up the pace.

>So, all going well, in the best possible scenario, you might get back
>to parity in the forwards. Because let's face it, theAll Blacks won;t
>besetting aorund doing nothing for the rest of the season, will they?
>This is their firstgame together and already they've got you stuffed
>in the forwards. No, don't give me that planet Rick shit, you were
>outplayed and if youwere honest you'd admit it.

No Rick. It's just that you are so one eyeed and pining for home that
the once mighty All Balcks losing their lustre upsets you.

It'll pass, or based on your performance since 1999 you'll just get
more bitter. How you progress is up to you.

Don't forget that, as the AB's and Wallabies are often excused come
November, you only managed to get within 2 points of a physically
knackered team that hadn't played Test Rugby together since March. The
AB's couldn't score against 13 men, oh in fact they conceded 3 points.
Oh and their one try - from a bit of intelligent decision making was
scored by a player who was offside.

Oh dear, there *is* a lot of room for improvement, isn't there.

Having said that Carlos ain't half bad, and McCaw is something else,
but eeryone'll have his measure by October.  

Quote:
>The only thing your forwards have going for them is experience and low
>cunning. That expertise in professional fouls and time wasting saved
>the game for you.  

>>Yeah, yeah yeah Rick

>Impressed though I am by your comprehensive argument, I was hoping for
>a little more. Do we assume then that Greenwood and Tindall are as
>good as you're likely to get? Will they be hoping for opponents that
>drop the ball and look confused for the rest of the season?

They're only backs Rick , but at least they can defend and we have a
functioning kicker who, once rested, will not be as woeful as he was
on Saturday. England weren't playing well on Saturday, but still won.

JH

Quote:

>-- rick boyd

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by Ben » Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:00:19

Quote:
> The only thing your forwards have going for them is experience and low
> cunning. That expertise in professional fouls and time wasting saved
> the game for you.

So we're one dimensional in the forwards *and* the backs and we still win?
You might be damning English rugby, but you're doing a good job of making
the All Blacks look like rank amateurs.

--
 Ben Longman

 
 
 

Thoughts on tonight's game

Post by Gary Thompso » Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:27:38


Quote:
> November, you only managed to get within 2 points of a physically
> knackered team that hadn't played Test Rugby together since March.

yeah well at least they'd played togeather before lets see how many
established combinations in the All Blacks had

Sommerville Oliver Hewwit - None
Jack Williams - None
McCaw So'ioalo Thorne - None
Soioialo-Marshall - none
Marshall- Spencer - at last  a couple of guys who had played togeather but
then that was 4 years ago
Spencer-Umaga - none
Umaga-Nonu - no tests but several games
Ralph-Rocko-Howlett - none but like above Howlett and Rocko had game time

look at caps for the backs in their positions
marshall (60)
spencer (15)
Umaga (1-only his 2nd game at 2nd five)
Nonu (0)
Ralph (8)
Rocko (0)
Howlett (0)

and England couldn't break down this defence and couldn't stop it from
scoring a try. Thats ***y woeful -