How to fix scrums

How to fix scrums

Post by simon s- » Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:32:58


1. As well as enforcing a straight feed, create a law which says that a front row player must hook the ball backwards. This will mean that the side with the put in has to keep the scrum up, and if it goes down it's fairly obvious it was the defending side doing it.
2. Remove the hit - put the front rows together, check the bindings, then add in everyone else.

Thoughts?

 
 
 

How to fix scrums

Post by alve » Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:43:23

Quote:

> 1. As well as enforcing a straight feed, create a law which says that a front row player must hook the ball backwards. This will mean that the side with the put in has to keep the scrum up, and if it goes down it's fairly obvious it was the defending side doing it.
> 2. Remove the hit - put the front rows together, check the bindings, then add in everyone else.

> Thoughts?

1. Remove two players per side from the scrum. In fact, make that the game.

 
 
 

How to fix scrums

Post by Ben » Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:12:26

Quote:

> 1. As well as enforcing a straight feed, create a law which says that a front row player must hook the ball backwards. This will mean that the side with the put in has to keep the scrum up, and if it goes down it's fairly obvious it was the defending side doing it.

> 2. Remove the hit - put the front rows together, check the bindings, then add in everyone else.

There isn't really a hit now. What there is instead is pushing before the ball goes in. The issue is that too often the scrums aren't remotely straight when the ball goes in, and the ball rarely goes in straight. But while it would be easy, pace Brian Moore, to enforce the "straight" feed, in practice this would push the problem onto whether the scrum itself was straight at put in, with a heavy incentive for the defending team to make sure this isn't the case.

I don't see why it's obvious if the scrum goes down that the defending side does it. Or rather, if we were to see a slew of penalties against the defensive scrum for scrum collapse, there is no incentive for the attacking props to keep the scrum up.

This is the root of the problem - the moment the laws incentivise the attacking or defending team to do x, they'll do it. So if refs get harsher on crooked feeds, there is every incentive for the defending scrum to muck about. We see this with wheeling the scrum - props play the rulebook - sometimes they get they get the turnover, sometimes they get the penalty against them.

The most obvious solution is that you bring on an AR to ref the side the referee doesn't. It's probably not going to happen though, because of the difficulty of implementing it in lower leagues. *Then* you can enforce the existing laws much more closely because you can actually see what the props are doing.

 
 
 

How to fix scrums

Post by simon s- » Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:41:18

Quote:


> > 1. As well as enforcing a straight feed, create a law which says that a front row player must hook the ball backwards. This will mean that the side with the put in has to keep the scrum up, and if it goes down it's fairly obvious it was the defending side doing it.

> > 2. Remove the hit - put the front rows together, check the bindings, then add in everyone else.

> There isn't really a hit now. What there is instead is pushing before the ball goes in. The issue is that too often the scrums aren't remotely straight when the ball goes in, and the ball rarely goes in straight. But while it would be easy, pace Brian Moore, to enforce the "straight" feed, in practice this would push the problem onto whether the scrum itself was straight at put in, with a heavy incentive for the defending team to make sure this isn't the case.

In which case, ping them. The attacking team wants the scrum straight until after the put in.

Quote:

> I don't see why it's obvious if the scrum goes down that the defending side does it. Or rather, if we were to see a slew of penalties against the defensive scrum for scrum collapse, there is no incentive for the attacking props to keep the scrum up.

Currently front rows are so low because they don't have to hook, all they have to do is drive over the crooked feed. The attacking team has to hook, so therefore would need to be high enough to do this. If they are not, it's likely to be the defending team trying to pull them down. The only other case would be if the attacking team is trying to con the ref, which he should be able to tell from the position of the ***.

Quote:

> This is the root of the problem - the moment the laws incentivise the attacking or defending team to do x, they'll do it. So if refs get harsher on crooked feeds, there is every incentive for the defending scrum to muck about. We see this with wheeling the scrum - props play the rulebook - sometimes they get they get the turnover, sometimes they get the penalty against them.

> The most obvious solution is that you bring on an AR to ref the side the referee doesn't. It's probably not going to happen though, because of the difficulty of implementing it in lower leagues. *Then* you can enforce the existing laws much more closely because you can actually see what the props are doing.

Ahhh yes, but then I've been arguing for a pie munching ref for the set piece for years.
 
 
 

How to fix scrums

Post by kev or lo » Thu, 14 Mar 2013 20:10:01


Quote:
> 1. As well as enforcing a straight feed, create a law which says that a front row player must hook the ball backwards. This will mean that the side with the put in has to keep the scrum up, and if it goes down it's fairly obvious it was the defending side doing it.
> 2. Remove the hit - put the front rows together, check the bindings, then add in everyone else.

> Thoughts?

I was watching some old footage recently, circa '65. It was amazing how
quickly the scrums came together without any of the current setting up
and faffing about before the ball went in. Almost league like - but
obviously not quite the same as there was atleast a semblance of
competition, but the main focus was to get the ball back in play.

Modern scrums have become far too focused on getting the upperhand which
I do really enjoy - but it seems to me it is impossible to have that
without having the constant problems it currenty has - binds/feet
slipping, popping up etc (intentional or not). A direct result I feel of
the sheer increase in physical forces coming together.

I'd very much like to see the hit taken out altogether as that in itself
is deffinately an issue, and then re-evaluate.

 
 
 

How to fix scrums

Post by Dechuck » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:53:44


Quote:


> > 1. As well as enforcing a straight feed, create a law which says that a
> > front row player must hook the ball backwards. This will mean that the
> > side with the put in has to keep the scrum up, and if it goes down it's
> > fairly obvious it was the defending side doing it.

> > 2. Remove the hit - put the front rows together, check the bindings,
> > then add in everyone else.

> There isn't really a hit now. What there is instead is pushing before the
> ball goes in. The issue is that too often the scrums aren't remotely
> straight when the ball goes in, and the ball rarely goes in straight. But
> while it would be easy, pace Brian Moore, to enforce the "straight" feed,
> in practice this would push the problem onto whether the scrum itself was
> straight at put in, with a heavy incentive for the defending team to make
> sure this isn't the case.

In which case, ping them. The attacking team wants the scrum straight until
after the put in.

Quote:

> I don't see why it's obvious if the scrum goes down that the defending
> side does it. Or rather, if we were to see a slew of penalties against the
> defensive scrum for scrum collapse, there is no incentive for the
> attacking props to keep the scrum up.

Currently front rows are so low because they don't have to hook, all they
have to do is drive over the crooked feed. The attacking team has to hook,
so therefore would need to be high enough to do this. If they are not, it's
likely to be the defending team trying to pull them down. The only other
case would be if the attacking team is trying to con the ref, which he
should be able to tell from the position of the ***.

=====================================================================================

LOW you call the current scrums today low. In the good old days we used to
sink the scrum to make it hard for the opposition *** to strike and then
put on an 8 man shove and drive over the ball. Then again as a tight head
prop I'd try to drop the other props shoulder so any drive by his side would
put him in the dirt at the same time our loose head would be trying to pop
the other prop.

Different era because if I didn't come off with a few railway tracks on my
back I didn't think I'd been playing hard enough. Of course we also cooled
down with beer not powerade and exercises

 
 
 

How to fix scrums

Post by newsgrou » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 16:47:49

Quote:

> I was watching some old footage recently, circa '65. It was amazing how
> quickly the scrums came together without any of the current setting up
> and faffing about before the ball went in. Almost league like - but
> obviously not quite the same as there was atleast a semblance of
> competition, but the main focus was to get the ball back in play.

> Modern scrums have become far too focused on getting the upperhand which
> I do really enjoy - but it seems to me it is impossible to have that
> without having the constant problems it currenty has - binds/feet
> slipping, popping up etc (intentional or not). A direct result I feel of
> the sheer increase in physical forces coming together.

Scrums have become a way to gain a penalty, and are no longer a method to restart the game.

Ask yourself how often a scrum in a really good attacking position gets clean ball? Seldom is my observation. The defending side would rather do everything they can to disrupt this, because they'd rather give away a penalty, and even then, there is a good chance the ref doesn't know what's going on and awards the penalty to the defending side.

Quote:
> I'd very much like to see the hit taken out altogether as that in itself
> is deffinately an issue, and then re-evaluate.

My suggestion is to ensure the scrum is completely still and stable after the packs have come together. The scrum half may not put the ball in yet. Once the ref is satisfied everything is stable, he then indicates the start of the contest. At this point the packs can start scrummaging and the the ball *must* be put in within 1-2 seconds or free kick to the opposition.
 
 
 

How to fix scrums

Post by William Clar » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 22:07:24


Quote:





> > > 1. As well as enforcing a straight feed, create a law which says that a
> > > front row player must hook the ball backwards. This will mean that the
> > > side with the put in has to keep the scrum up, and if it goes down it's
> > > fairly obvious it was the defending side doing it.

> > > 2. Remove the hit - put the front rows together, check the bindings,
> > > then add in everyone else.

Amen - like the old days.

Quote:

> > There isn't really a hit now. What there is instead is pushing before the
> > ball goes in. The issue is that too often the scrums aren't remotely
> > straight when the ball goes in, and the ball rarely goes in straight. But
> > while it would be easy, pace Brian Moore, to enforce the "straight" feed,
> > in practice this would push the problem onto whether the scrum itself was
> > straight at put in, with a heavy incentive for the defending team to make
> > sure this isn't the case.

Last week Ireland-France was a case in point. Every scrum shambles had
pushing before the ball went in. Thank you, Mr. Walsh.
Quote:

> In which case, ping them. The attacking team wants the scrum straight until
> after the put in.

> > I don't see why it's obvious if the scrum goes down that the defending
> > side does it. Or rather, if we were to see a slew of penalties against the
> > defensive scrum for scrum collapse, there is no incentive for the
> > attacking props to keep the scrum up.

> Currently front rows are so low because they don't have to hook, all they
> have to do is drive over the crooked feed. The attacking team has to hook,
> so therefore would need to be high enough to do this. If they are not, it's
> likely to be the defending team trying to pull them down. The only other
> case would be if the attacking team is trying to con the ref, which he
> should be able to tell from the position of the ***.

> ==============================================================================
> =======

> LOW you call the current scrums today low. In the good old days we used to
> sink the scrum to make it hard for the opposition *** to strike and then
> put on an 8 man shove and drive over the ball. Then again as a tight head
> prop I'd try to drop the other props shoulder so any drive by his side would
> put him in the dirt at the same time our loose head would be trying to pop
> the other prop.

Quite right, remember Bobby Windsor used to strike for the ball with his
head, because the front rows were too low for him to get his foot out.
 
 
 

How to fix scrums

Post by willsutto » Sat, 16 Mar 2013 16:21:27


Quote:
> 1. As well as enforcing a straight feed, create a law which says that a front row player must hook the ball backwards. This will mean that the side with the put in has to keep the scrum up, and if it goes down it's fairly obvious it was the defending side doing it.

then the attacking side will collapse it deliberately because according
to you its fairly obvious it was the defensive side doing this

Quote:
> 2. Remove the hit - put the front rows together, check the bindings, then add in everyone else.

I would make sure that the jumpers were not skin tight so a grip can be
made. If need-be the ref can sinbin the prop .  Also would have props
cited for collapsing the scrum ie dangerous play
 
 
 

How to fix scrums

Post by kev or lo » Sat, 16 Mar 2013 19:40:50


Quote:

>> I was watching some old footage recently, circa '65. It was amazing how
>> quickly the scrums came together without any of the current setting up
>> and faffing about before the ball went in. Almost league like - but
>> obviously not quite the same as there was atleast a semblance of
>> competition, but the main focus was to get the ball back in play.

>> Modern scrums have become far too focused on getting the upperhand which
>> I do really enjoy - but it seems to me it is impossible to have that
>> without having the constant problems it currenty has - binds/feet
>> slipping, popping up etc (intentional or not). A direct result I feel of
>> the sheer increase in physical forces coming together.

> Scrums have become a way to gain a penalty, and are no longer a method to restart the game.

> Ask yourself how often a scrum in a really good attacking position gets clean ball? Seldom is my observation. The defending side would rather do everything they can to disrupt this, because they'd rather give away a penalty, and even then, there is a good chance the ref doesn't know what's going on and awards the penalty to the defending side.

I'm all for scrum refs atleast at professional level. Unless we depower
the scrum I think it's an absolute necessity. I'm just unsure how to go
about it - whether by having the scrum ref on the pitch or using live
video footage. The problem as it stands is the ref can obviously only
see one side of the scrum - having scrum ref on the pitch will have the
same issue.

Quote:
>> I'd very much like to see the hit taken out altogether as that in itself
>> is deffinately an issue, and then re-evaluate.

> My suggestion is to ensure the scrum is completely still and stable after the packs have come together. The scrum half may not put the ball in yet. Once the ref is satisfied everything is stable, he then indicates the start of the contest. At this point the packs can start scrummaging and the the ball *must* be put in within 1-2 seconds or free kick to the opposition.

I agree - I think taking the hit out will lead on to this.
 
 
 

How to fix scrums

Post by Morrissey Bree » Sun, 17 Mar 2013 02:05:05


Quote:
> 1. As well as enforcing a straight feed, create a law which says that a front row player must hook the ball backwards. This will mean that the side with the put in has to keep the scrum up, and if it goes down it's fairly obvious it was the defending side doing it.
> 2. Remove the hit - put the front rows together, check the bindings, then add in everyone else.

> Thoughts?

ABOLISH the scrum.
 
 
 

How to fix scrums

Post by Stanley Daniel de Live » Sun, 17 Mar 2013 02:44:12

On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:05:05 -0000, Morrissey Breen  

Quote:


>> 1. As well as enforcing a straight feed, create a law which says that a  
>> front row player must hook the ball backwards. This will mean that the  
>> side with the put in has to keep the scrum up, and if it goes down it's  
>> fairly obvious it was the defending side doing it.
>> 2. Remove the hit - put the front rows together, check the bindings,  
>> then add in everyone else.

>> Thoughts?

> ABOLISH the scrum.

Well a new newsreader (OK re-install) a new killfile.
Obv. troll for Rugby League.

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