Creatine - Carteblanche TV program on MNET

Creatine - Carteblanche TV program on MNET

Post by Ferdi Greyli » Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:00:00


On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:49:44 +0200, "Darren Cooper"

<<>Ethics does not enter into it>>

It actualy does.
All the rules of sport - regarding stuff like steroids and hormones -
are ethical arguments.
It is ethical action that took Ben Johnson's gold medal away from him.

<<>One can get creatine from eating a lot of mutton,>>

How much mutton?
Why not eat mutton then?

<<>Is it unethical to eat Pasta etc for carbo's of fish for protien ?

It is deemed not unethical. Probably because it is food in normal
quantities and prepared in a "normal"way.

You can walk into an Italian home and get pasta on the table.
Will you get artificially extracted creatine in powder form on the
table?

There is a difference between rugby and some body building crowds
where steroids and all sorts of things are accepted to increase muscle
mass.

Rugby has a code that in general prohibits artificial building of the
body and chemical enhancement of performance. That is the way it is.
If you test positive for steroids in rugby you get booted out for a
long time. Same if you take chemicals to make you run faster and for
longer.

Now creatine comes along and what is it?
It is a natural substance that is artificially refined and
concentrated.

How does it differ in this from hormones or steroids?
Seems to me much the same.

It is also a substance that builds muscle and makes you run faster and
last longer. In fact faster than you would have if you had eaten a
meal of mutton and pasta.

How does it differ - ETHICALLY - from steroids or uppers or hormones
in this?

Seems much the same to me.

Where it DOES differ, is that it seems allmost impossible to detect.

 
 
 

Creatine - Carteblanche TV program on MNET

Post by Ferdi Greyli » Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:00:00



<<>To me the issue is that putting too much of a substance into your
body will

Quote:
>definately do you harm - no matter what the substance is.>>

The sports world is creatine happy at the moment.

Seems to me either it will turn out that is DOES enhance performance
greatly - in which case the ethics of sport comes into the picture as
well as side effects, as you said  - or it does NOT enhance
performance (some are saying this) in which case the craze will die
away.

I keep on thinking of Percy before creatine and after creatine.
And of Johan Ackerman.

Percy got more Bok caps. Ackerman got kicked out of rugby for taking
steroids. In fact so little that his body mass was more or less the
same afterwards as before.

Percy on the other hand, gained many kg's....

So if we then say, OK allow substances to increase mass (creatine)
does that not lead to allowing steroids and hormones and other stuff
as well?

And where does that lead?

And what about gene therapy in the near future?

 
 
 

Creatine - Carteblanche TV program on MNET

Post by G Vincen » Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:00:00


Quote:
> Since I quit smoking 3 and a half years ago I have put on about 25
kilograms
> in solid mass. A lot of that is from beer. I wonder if creatine can boast
> such mass building figures?

Ah, but you conveniently left out the location of your 25kg.

This smoking quitting thing - anything to do with the lack of smoking
facilities at NBS :-)

 
 
 

Creatine - Carteblanche TV program on MNET

Post by Dalla » Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Ya, it's an interesting topic alright. One thing that I think we need to
consider here is the essential difference between steroids and creatine.

I may be wrong about this but to my mind an anabolic steroid is a chemical
that gives you the extra lift to build more muscle or improve performance.
In other words, if you are a weightlifter and you're trying to benchpress
150kgs, the steroids will help you do it. The end result is that you have
built muscle as a result of a stimulant that gave you the extra lift you
needed to press 150kg. Sort of like Asterix's magic potion.

On the other hand, the use of creatine has the same effect of building
muscle, but it goes about it the other way around. Instead of giving you the
boost to lift more immediately and build more muscle as a result thereof, it
assists in the building of muscle tissue via normal exercise which will
eventually give the weightlifter the ability to press 150kgs anyway. It
accellerates the rate at which muscle is created naturally.

Either way the end result is an improvement in muscle size and mass that
would not have been possible under normal circumstances.

Now, lets just assume that the sporting bodies around the world decide that
the use of creatine should be abolished as it does give an unfair "training"
advantage to its users. How will it be possible to determine whether a
sportsman has been supplementing their natural creatine intake? That's not
going to be easy to prove.

-
D.

 
 
 

Creatine - Carteblanche TV program on MNET

Post by Dalla » Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Quote:

>Ah, but you conveniently left out the location of your 25kg.

>This smoking quitting thing - anything to do with the lack of smoking
>facilities at NBS :-)

Oi! Shhhh!!!

Somebody might take away my internet access. How'd you know about the NBS
smoking facilities anyway?

-
D

 
 
 

Creatine - Carteblanche TV program on MNET

Post by Gareth Adla » Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Quote:

> On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:29:34 +0200, "Brent Murphy"

> <<>Dear Ferdi


> >> Hormones are natural.
> >> Some athletes have naturally more than others.
> >> To boost your own hormone level unnaturally is in sports terms
> >> unethical.

> >I agree with you.

> >However.....

> >Creatine is not a hormone. It does not boost your hormone levels.  Nor does
> >it not work via a hormonal mechanism. You are not boosting any hormones of
> >anykind by taking creatine.  Creatine is a protein that elevates the energy
> >carrier molecule, ATP. IT IS NOT A HORMONE!>>>

> And I did not say it was a hormone.

> Are you ducking the issue or do you not read the postings with enough
> attention?

> I know it is not a hormone. You said <<<<>Protein (Fish, Chicken) etc
> is required for muscle formation. Sugar & >glucose also provides
> energy & is essential to muscle growth. Using your
> >logic, that anything that builds muscle is "unethical", it could be argued
> >that it would then be "unethical" to eat protein or eat sugar!  >>

> I said hormones are ALSO natural, but boosting them in an artificial
> way is deemed unethical in sports.

> It is an example to illustrate that the mere fact that a thing  has a
> natural occurance does not make it ethical in all forms in sport.
> In other words, saying creatine is natural does not make it ethical to
> take it.

> The issue is the ethics. And the bounderies crossed or not crossed
> when a naturally occuring substance is taken, multiplied unnaturally
> and taken to boost performance.

> Get it?

> I DO NOT say creatine is a hormone. I say in the ETHICAL argument it
> may be akin to the hormone example.

> You seem to say this thing is easy: Creatine is a natural substance
> therefore it is OK.
> I say: Not so. It is much more complicated than that. And I point you
> to another natural substance - hormones - as an example.

> But you have not told me yet why you would not give it to people under
> 16.

At present creatine is classed as a food substance so avoids being banned.

He wouldn't suggest that under 16 year olds take it because as a Pharmacist you
are liable for information given, so he is covering his back.
Children aren't recommended to do heavy weight training anyway, not until their
bones have stopped growing.

Cheers

Gareth

 
 
 

Creatine - Carteblanche TV program on MNET

Post by G Vincen » Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:00:00


Quote:
> Oi! Shhhh!!!
> Somebody might take away my internet access. How'd you know about the NBS
> smoking facilities anyway?

Oh, come on, Dallas!
*Everybody* knows about you and the non-smoking NBS building. ;->
 
 
 

Creatine - Carteblanche TV program on MNET

Post by Dalla » Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Quote:



>> Oi! Shhhh!!!
>> Somebody might take away my internet access. How'd you know about the NBS
>> smoking facilities anyway?

>Oh, come on, Dallas!
>*Everybody* knows about you and the non-smoking NBS building. ;->

They do?

I am in shock. What's a man to do? All my disguises have failed and now I am
left to wander the echoey passages of usenet without any secrets!

Oh woe is me!

-
D.

 
 
 

Creatine - Carteblanche TV program on MNET

Post by robg.. » Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:00:00


   >I said hormones are ALSO natural, but boosting them in an artificial
   >way is deemed unethical in sports.

But what's "an artificial way"?  Exercises?  They're certainly artifices.

Net-Tamer V 1.11 - Registered

 
 
 

Creatine - Carteblanche TV program on MNET

Post by robg.. » Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:00:00


   >The effect of this substance is to supplement the levels of
   >creatine in the human body. What this does is enable the user to
   >build muscle faster than he would if he was to consume creatine in
   >normal quantities found in regular foodstufffs. My take on this is
   >that it is unnaturally boosting levels of a chemical (or whatever
   >its called) in the body....
   >As far as the ethical argument goes, I cannot give too much comment
   >other than to say that I don't think it is right to do unnatural
   >things to the body in order to get a boost in sport. It goes
   >against the very premise of the word "sport".

What are "natural", "normal", and "regular"?  And if the practice in
question is said to be un-natural, can sport itself be rightly said to be
natural?  Sports seem to be as artificial as anything one does.

Robert
Net-Tamer V 1.11 - Registered