87 AB vs 97 AB

87 AB vs 97 AB

Post by G » Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:00:00


87                    97
Full Back
Gallagher*           Cullen

Close call but I'd pick Cullen

Wings
Kirwin*             Umaga
Wright             Wilson*

Centres
Stanley*         Bunce*    
???              Stensness

Ist 5
Fox*            Mehrten

1/2 back
Kirk            Marshall

#8
Buck

 
 
 

87 AB vs 97 AB

Post by G » Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:00:00

After ten years it might be good to compare the World cup All Blacks with the
present team

Quote:
>87                    97
>Full Back
>Gallagher*           Cullen

>Close call but I'd pick Cullen

>Wings
>Kirwin*             Umaga
>Wright             Wilson*

>Centres
>Stanley*         Bunce*    
>???              Stensness

>Ist 5
>Fox*            Mehrten

>1/2 back
>Kirk*            Marshall

>#8
>Buck*            Z. Brook  

Flankers
M. Jones (open side)*  Kronfield
??                     M. Jones (Blindside)*

Locks
Whetton            Brooke
???                Jones

Front row
Dowd                Brown
Fitzpatrich         Fitzpatrich
??                  Dowd

 
 
 

87 AB vs 97 AB

Post by Tracey Nels » Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


>After ten years it might be good to compare the World cup All Blacks with the
>present team
>>87                    97
>>Full Back
>>Gallagher*           Cullen
>>Wings
>>Kirwin*             Umaga
>>Wright             Wilson*

I think you'll find that the left wing at the 1987 WC was Craig Green.

Quote:
>>Centres
>>Stanley*         Bunce*    
>>???              Stensness

And the ??? was Warwick Taylor.

Quote:
>>Ist 5
>>Fox*            Mehrtens

>>1/2 back
>>Kirk*            Marshall

>>#8
>>Buck*            Z. Brook  

>Flankers
>M. Jones (open side)*  Kronfield
>??                     M. Jones (Blindside)*

?? was Alan Whetton I believe.

Quote:
>Locks
>Whetton            Brooke
>???                Jones

??? was Murray Pierce?

Front row

Quote:
>Dowd                Brown
>Fitzpatrich         Fitzpatrich
>??                  Dowd

Richard Loe?  (BTW it's Fitzpatrick with a K not an H.

Tracey.

 
 
 

87 AB vs 97 AB

Post by Richard Derha » Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


> After ten years it might be good to compare the World cup All Blacks with the
> present team

> >87                    97
> >Full Back
> >Gallagher*           Cullen

> >Close call but I'd pick Cullen

> >Wings
> >Kirwin*             Umaga
> >Wright             Wilson*

It was actually Craig Green and Kirwan in 87

Quote:

> >Centres
> >Stanley*         Bunce*
> >???              Stensness

Is it just coincidence or have you intentionally forgetten the
Canterbury players? :-) In this case Warwick Taylor.

Quote:

> >Ist 5
> >Fox*            Mehrten

> >1/2 back
> >Kirk*            Marshall

> >#8
> >Buck*            Z. Brook

> Flankers
> M. Jones (open side)*  Kronfield
> ??                     M. Jones (Blindside)*

Alan Whetton (or Andy Earl)
Mark Brooke-Cowden or Zinny on Sundays for openside in 87.

Quote:

> Locks
> Whetton            Brooke
> ???                Jones

Murray Pierce

Quote:

> Front row
> Dowd                Brown
> Fitzpatrich         Fitzpatrich
> ??                  Dowd

John Drake (sometimes Richard Loe) and McDowell (or else Craig Dowd is
looking very young for his age - although Mendez from Argentina did make
his debut as a 17 year old, so it could have happened I guess.

My choice for the best blend, taken from the first choice teams of each
year would be:

15. Cullen
14. Kirwan (tempting to put Green in on one wing though)
13. Stanley
12. Taylor
11. Wilson
10. Mehrtens
9.  Marshall
8.  Z. Brooke
7.  M. Jones (1987)
6.  M. Jones (1997)
5.  G. Whetton
4.  I. Jones
3.  Brown
2.  Fitzpatrick (c)
1.  McDowell

--
Richard Derham

 
 
 

87 AB vs 97 AB

Post by Justin Mansfie » Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:00:00


Quote:

>After ten years it might be good to compare the World cup All Blacks with the
>present team

>>87                    97
>>Full Back
>>Gallagher*           Cullen

>>Close call but I'd pick Cullen

Definitely take Cullen.

Quote:
>>Wings
>>Kirwin*             Umaga
>>Wright             Wilson*

RWC87 left wing was Craig Green.

I'd take Wilson and Green.

Quote:
>>Centres
>>Stanley*         Bunce*    
>>???              Stensness

RWC87 2nd Five was Warwick Taylor

I'd take Taylor, any day.

Quote:
>>Ist 5
>>Fox*            Mehrten

I'd probably take Mehrts, I don't think Fox would add too much with
this team, whereas Mehrts would give that added dimension.

Quote:
>>1/2 back
>>Kirk*            Marshall

I don't think Kirk was that great a half back, but a decent captain.
He and Marshall play similar games, but Swede Breath has a lot more to
offer in defence and close in.

Quote:
>>#8
>>Buck*            Z. Brook  

I would leave this choice to someone else.

Quote:
>Flankers
>M. Jones (open side)*  Kronfield
>??                     M. Jones (Blindside)*

Alan Whetton? I'd take Jones on bliind if I can have Kronfeld, but I'd
think about Jones on open, if I could have Zinny on blind.

Quote:
>Locks
>Whetton            Brooke
>???                Jones

Muzza Pierce? I'd take both current boys.

Quote:
>Front row
>Dowd                Brown
>Fitzpatrich         Fitzpatrich
>??                  Dowd

John Drake? I'd take the current front three (Fitzy's playing better
now than ever).

Buck would be captain.

Justin

 
 
 

87 AB vs 97 AB

Post by Warren Hal » Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:00:00



<snip>

Quote:
> My choice for the best blend, taken from the first choice teams of each
> year would be:

> 15. Cullen
> 14. Kirwan (tempting to put Green in on one wing though)
> 13. Stanley
> 12. Taylor
> 11. Wilson
> 10. Mehrtens
> 9.  Marshall
> 8.  Z. Brooke
> 7.  M. Jones (1987)
> 6.  M. Jones (1997)
> 5.  G. Whetton
> 4.  I. Jones
> 3.  Brown
> 2.  Fitzpatrick (c)
> 1.  McDowell

> --
> Richard Derham

Fair enough Richard, but playing under what rules 87 or 97?

Steve McDowell was one of the first to admit that the new rules did not
suit his style of play.  
Buck was another who didn't fit the "new" game.

Hard to argue with your team though.  Maybe Buck for Zinny (87 rules) and
Bunce for Stanley, Dowd for McDowell and R Brooke for G Whetton (97 rules).

Cheers
Warren

 
 
 

87 AB vs 97 AB

Post by Migue » Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:00:00

WAS SMOKING JOE'S CO-CENTRE NOT JOHN SCHUSTER RATHER THAN WARWICK
TAYLOR?

 
 
 

87 AB vs 97 AB

Post by G » Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

>The 1996 All Blacks may have done something that no other team did
>before, and that is win a series in South Africa, but the way they have
>won some of their games indicates to me they are not a team worthy of
>comparison to the great, probably greatest ever, 1987-1990 All Blacks.

>That era contained a core team that was full of exceptional players in
>almost every position but much, much more important, they had an
>invincible attitude. The current All Blacks have had some woeful games,
>winning in the last minutes from desperation and not a little luck. The
>87-90 All Blacks never needed to do that. The closest anyone came to them
>in those marvellous 50 games without loss was one draw against the 1988
>Wallabies.

>By God those were good years. Supporting the All Blacks became something
>of a formality. They never even looked like losing. And I paid $7000 to
>go to the World Cup in 1991 and see them lose like incontinent ***s!

>Everyone has a use by date.

>- Rick Boyd

I aggree

The key I think is the invincible attitude and being slightly biased I think
developed from the Auckland team. Both the All Blacks and Auckland just didn't want
to win they wanted to destroy the other team there was no slacking off in the last
twenty minutes of the game when it was won they went on to score record wins.

The problem comes down to the coaches. What did Mains say "you cann't expect to win
all the time" (I'm not one of his biggest fans). Well as far as I see it the All
Blacks should expect to win and God help them when they don't- heads should roll-  I
got the feeling in both the last world cups the All Blacks didn't want to win
enough- it wasn't because of a lack of talent just the desire to win. I'm sure thats
why they got rid of Buck he gave it 100% (even his balls in one game :o) all of the
time and was making the rest look bad. I mean we nearly lose to Scotland and Buck's
head rolls.  When we lose to everyone else after that its "the All Blacks cann't be
expected to win all the time"

Oh well enough of the rant- but now that Harts got the job I think we may see a much
better attitude to the next world cup.  

 
 
 

87 AB vs 97 AB

Post by Richard Derha » Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> WAS SMOKING JOE'S CO-CENTRE NOT JOHN SCHUSTER RATHER THAN WARWICK
> TAYLOR?

NO! not until Taylor got injured half way through the tour of Australia
in 1988.

--
Richard Derham

 
 
 

87 AB vs 97 AB

Post by Paul Kenda » Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:00:00

I agree with the selection of Cullen, Kirwan and Wilson.

Quote:
> > Centre - Stanley/Bunce
> Very similar players, hard crash-'em-up styles. Stanley by a nose

I think you're downplaying Stanley's role in that team Rick.  He was much
more than a crash n' bash centre.  How many tries did Kirwan, Green/Wright
and Gallagher score because of Stanley's passing skills alone?  Like
Bunce, Stanley was a very good defensive centre, but his ability to put
his threequarters into space was without peer IMO.  I would also take
Smokin' Joe.

Quote:
> > Inside centre - Schuster & Little/Stensness

> Schuster was a brilliant 2/5 8, a pity he went to that other silly game

Technically Schuster is ineligible because he didn't play for the ABs in
1987.  So if it's a choice between Taylor, Little and Stensness I'd select
Little followed by Taylor.  Oh, and there was that McCahill fella as well.
:-)

Quote:
> > Flyhalf - Fox/Mehrtens

> Whether to take Fox's tactical superiority and consistency over Merhtens'
> pace and running skills? Go with experience every time. Fox.

I would select the first five who offers the best mix of Fox and Mehrtens
- Frano Botica.

Quote:
> > Halfback - Kirk/Marshall

> Kirk was a great halfback, and smart with it.

You got the second part right.  Kirk was never a great halfback, for if he
was, he would have made the Otago team ahead of Dean Kenny on a more
regular basis.  What Kirk offered was leadership and a very astute rugby
mind.  I think this would be a close decision but I would go with
Marshall.

Quote:
> > Number 8 - Buck/Z. Brooke

> Brooke has more skills, but Buck was hell on wheels. Buck every time.

Zinny is great but Buck was better.  

Quote:
> > Openside flank - Michael Jones/Kronfeld
> Doesn't even require thinking about. Jones 1st, 2nd and 97th.

Who am I to disagree.

Quote:
> > Blindside flank - Alan Whetton/Michael Jones
> Let's go for AJ here in his specialist position.

Agreed.

Quote:
> > Locks - Gary Whetton & Murray Pierce/Robin Brooke & Ian Jones

> Gary Whetton for sure, one of the greatest. Robin Brooke by a nose from
> Murray Pierce for greater all round skills

Whetton and Brooke are both no.2 jumpers.  Ian Jones, who I might add is
now the most capped AB lock of all time, is better than all of them.
Jones and Whetton.

Quote:
> > Props - Richard Loe & Steve McDowell/Olo Brown & Craig Dowd
> Give me Loe and McDowell any day. Mighty good players.

Hey, I'm as big a Loe fan as anybody on this ng but nobody has mentioned
John Drake.  Afterall he was the tighthead prop who played in the majority
of the World Cup matches.  Drake and McDowell for me.  Together with Fitzy
they formed arguably the best AB front row ever.

Quote:
> > *** - Fitzpatrick/Fitzpatrick
> Well, we'll give Fitzpatrick the nod shall we?

Yeah, Fitzpatrick '97 vintage.

--
Paul

 
 
 

87 AB vs 97 AB

Post by Tim Scriven » Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> > Centre - Stanley/Bunce
> Very similar players, hard crash-'em-up styles. Stanley by a nose

> > Inside centre - Schuster & Little/Stensness

> Schuster was a brilliant 2/5 8, a pity he went to that other silly game

> > Flyhalf - Fox/Mehrtens

Good post, Rick, I agreed with most of it.  For me, the thing that makes
Stanley better than Bunce is the pass.  Admittedly, I am looking back
through rose-coloured glasses, but Stanley was the master timer, and the
best man I have ever seen (no hyperbole) for getting his outside men
away with the well-timed ball.

Bunce is no slouch, and a better tackler, but I have to go for Smokin'
Joe by quite a wide margin.

Johnny the Shoe was not as good, even in the era, as Warwick Taylor,
IMO, who added both stability and thought to the backline.  Not the
fastest, not the most elusive, but a good reader of the game.  I loved
the combination of him, Fox and Kirk, for reading the game and taking
the right options.

To use an example from the "other" code, Wally Lewis got fat, old and
slow, not necessarily in that order, but he was still the most dangerous
man on the field in a Kangaroo/Kiwi game.