European Cup: RESULTS, standings and comments

European Cup: RESULTS, standings and comments

Post by John William » Tue, 22 Oct 2002 02:43:01


Heineken Cup: Results and Standings
===================================

POOL ONE  
========
Beziers (12) 21  Neath (9) 16  Attend: 5,000
Leicester (25) 63  Calvisano (0) 0  Attend: 14,525

A tough one for Beziers, with Quesada kicking all the home points.
Neath's next games home and away v Calvisano will be crucial to their
chances. Beziers' visit from Leicester first up in their head-to-head
will be of major interest to all three clubs. If Beziers win that,
they'll probably be favourites for at least a runners-up QF spot.

Team            P W D L F       A       Pts
Beziers         2 2 0 0 53      32      4
Leicester       2 1 1 0 79      16      3
Neath           2 0 1 1 32      37      1
A & Calvisano       2 0 0 2 16      95      0

POOL TWO  
========
Viadana (14) 28  Gloucester (45) 80  Attend: 2,000
Munster (17) 30  Perpignan (14) 21  Attend: 9,000

Curiosity of the weekend was BBC Wales reporting a scoreline of
Viadana 24-0 Gloucester with 20 minutes gone on Friday night. Brief
hilarity in the Williams household! Perpignan visit Gloucester first
in their head-to-heads, which might be to Gloucester's advantage.

Team            P W D L F       A       Pts
Gloucester      2 2 0 0 115     44      4
Perpignan       2 1 0 1 67      57      2
Munster         2 1 0 1 46      56      2
Viadana         2 0 0 2 55      126     0

POOL THREE
==========
Glasgow (16) 26  Sale (8) 14  Attend: 5,283
Bourgoin (30) 54  Llanelli (25) 38  Attend: 5,000

Apparently the Bourgoin v Llanelli was very close until near the end.
Llanelli visit Sale next time out, which looks a desperately important
one for Sale. At Least Sale should have fly-half Hodgson back from
injury (dead-leg) by then. Glasgow visit Bourgoin, but can possibly
afford to lose that one if they can win the return game at Sale in the
new year. Bourgoin might be able to make the visit to Llanelli close
to academic if they can win both. Very finely balanced still!

Team            P W D L F       A       Pts
Bourgoin        2 2 0 0 78      56      4
Llanelli        2 1 0 1 83      69      2
Glasgow         2 1 0 1 41      59      2
Sale Sharks     2 0 0 2 32      50      0

POOL FOUR  
=========
Bristol (9) 24  Montferrand (0) 19  Attend: 4,607
Swansea (3) 10  Leinster (37) 51  Attend: 3,000

Suddenly Leinster look very good, though their annihilation of Swansea
was as much Swansea looking woeful as Leinster looking the part. It
was nice seeing O'Driscoll looking the best OC in the world again on a
Saturday evening, all the same.

Montferrand losing away v Bristol might not be too serious, but their
game at home to Leinster next up could be hugely significant. Probably
the game of the round. If Swansea don't win at home v Bristol, they
might not win a game all tournament, and Bristol did well in Leinster
by all accounts. All to play for!

Team            P W D L F       A       Pts
Leinster        2 2 0 0 80      33      4
Montferrand     2 1 0 1 66      36      2
Bristol         2 1 0 1 47      48      2
Swansea         2 0 0 1 22      98      0

POOL FIVE  
=========
Newport (19) 19  Toulouse (14) 34  Attend: 6,730
London Irish (18) 24  Edinburgh (5) 8  

With London Irish giving Toulouse some problems in France, they will
be looking forward to the Newport fixtures (first one in Newport -
damn, I'll be out of town and not in Beziers) to really make something
of their first time in the EC. Newport looked like a team that have
lost their last 9 games on Friday night, despite a great lineout drive
from the 22 to score and keep things close until half time (on the
scoreboard, at least). Edinburgh host Toulouse first up in their
games, which will help, but probably not enough.

Team            P W D L F       A       Pts
Toulouse        2 2 0 0 62      42      4
London Irish    2 1 0 1 47      34      2
Edinburgh       1 1 0 0 35      41      2
Newport         2 0 0 2 36      61      0

POOL SIX  
========
Ulster (13) 25  Cardiff (3) 6  Attend: 10,250
Biarritz (10) 23  Northampton (10) 20  Attend: 8,000

Biarritz nicking the win with a penalty 7 minutes into injury time
might cheer up Ulster, who host the French champs next. Cardiff visit
Northampton first, which looks way beyond their reach at the moment.
I've a feeling this group will be open right up till the end.

Team            P W D L F       A       Pts
Biarritz        2 2 0 0 49      35      4
Northampton     2 1 0 1 52      32      2
Ulster          2 1 0 1 34      38      2
Cardiff         2 0 0 2 21      51      0

------------

Yet again the absurdity of putting this competition on ice until early
December is obvious (to me, at least). About the only benefit is for
teams woefully out of form to have a chance of recovering before being
put out of their misery. It also kills the momentum of any side doing
unexpectedly well.

Clearly, the unbeaten teams have an edge at this stage, but it's far
too early to come to any conclusions. Maybe the most likely
semi-finalists at this stage are Gloucester, Biarritz, Toulouse and
Leinster, but anyone ruling out the likes of Montferrand, Llanelli,
Leicester, or a few others, would be mad.

--

Regards,
John Williams

 
 
 

European Cup: RESULTS, standings and comments

Post by Mees Roelof » Tue, 22 Oct 2002 04:54:24

John Williams schrijft:

Quote:
>POOL ONE  
>========
>Beziers (12) 21  Neath (9) 16  Attend: 5,000
>Leicester (25) 63  Calvisano (0) 0  Attend: 14,525

>A tough one for Beziers, with Quesada kicking all the home points.
>Neath's next games home and away v Calvisano will be crucial to their
>chances. Beziers' visit from Leicester first up in their head-to-head
>will be of major interest to all three clubs. If Beziers win that,
>they'll probably be favourites for at least a runners-up QF spot.

You never know of course, but Bziers are not of the quality to beat
Leicester if you ask me, even if Leicester isn't exactly up to its
best and the game being played in France. But you never know though.

Quote:
>POOL TWO  
>========
>Viadana (14) 28  Gloucester (45) 80  Attend: 2,000
>Munster (17) 30  Perpignan (14) 21  Attend: 9,000

>Curiosity of the weekend was BBC Wales reporting a scoreline of
>Viadana 24-0 Gloucester with 20 minutes gone on Friday night. Brief
>hilarity in the Williams household! Perpignan visit Gloucester first
>in their head-to-heads, which might be to Gloucester's advantage.

The results against Viadana more or less indicates the difference
between Perpignan and Gloucester. USAP scored some 45 points at home,
Gloucester managed 80 away. Interesting to see that Viadana scored a
reasonable number of points in both games too. Their attack doesn't
seem that bad. Anyway, Perpignan is a team I would fancy in most other
pools, but in this group of dead (clich of the week) I don't see them
reaching the next round. Beating teams like Munster and particularly
Gloucester at fortress Aim Giral will be tough enough.

Quote:
>POOL THREE
>==========
>Glasgow (16) 26  Sale (8) 14  Attend: 5,283
>Bourgoin (30) 54  Llanelli (25) 38  Attend: 5,000

>Apparently the Bourgoin v Llanelli was very close until near the end.
>Llanelli visit Sale next time out, which looks a desperately important
>one for Sale. At Least Sale should have fly-half Hodgson back from
>injury (dead-leg) by then. Glasgow visit Bourgoin, but can possibly
>afford to lose that one if they can win the return game at Sale in the
>new year. Bourgoin might be able to make the visit to Llanelli close
>to academic if they can win both. Very finely balanced still!

You're correct as far as the Bourgoin game against Llanelli is
concerned. The home team pretty much ran away with it in the end, but
as far as I understood it, it was a well-deserved victory for them.
Three teams still in it, but Bourgoin are looking best now to me, as
they have an away victory on their tally. For Sale it seems like to
have become a battle against themselves now and in a EC debut year,
that will be even more difficult to come out of.

[no comments on Pool 4]

Quote:
>POOL FIVE  
>=========
>Newport (19) 19  Toulouse (14) 34  Attend: 6,730
>London Irish (18) 24  Edinburgh (5) 8  

>With London Irish giving Toulouse some problems in France, they will
>be looking forward to the Newport fixtures (first one in Newport -
>damn, I'll be out of town and not in Beziers) to really make something
>of their first time in the EC. Newport looked like a team that have
>lost their last 9 games on Friday night, despite a great lineout drive
>from the 22 to score and keep things close until half time (on the
>scoreboard, at least). Edinburgh host Toulouse first up in their
>games, which will help, but probably not enough.

Toulouse looked like the quality side again last Friday, even though
such opposition probably makes you look better than you really are.
The Newport driving maul over 20 meters that lead to their try proved
once more to me that Toulouse's pack is not outstanding, but I think
that nobody is going to stop them at the group stage.

Of interest here is the red card for Xavier Garbajosa for Toulouse,
which was a bit of a farce. Garba received his second yellow somewhere
in injury time, but wasn't shown a red. Nonetheless he has been
suspended by ERC for two matches for receiving a red card. To make
things worse, the referee (Mr. White) said after the game that the
offence wasn't worth a second yellow and that he wouldn't have given
the card, had he known that it was Garbajosa who offended. Toulouse
have appealed.

Quote:
>POOL SIX  
>========
>Ulster (13) 25  Cardiff (3) 6  Attend: 10,250
>Biarritz (10) 23  Northampton (10) 20  Attend: 8,000

>Biarritz nicking the win with a penalty 7 minutes into injury time
>might cheer up Ulster, who host the French champs next. Cardiff visit
>Northampton first, which looks way beyond their reach at the moment.
>I've a feeling this group will be open right up till the end.

Surprised me that the Saints ran Biarritz so close, but I didn't see
the game (guess you're not interested in a report of Handschuhsheim vs
RGH?). I think Cardiff are more or less out of the competition.
Biarritz are standing a chance at Ravenhill in my opinion. In general,
it looks like a two-horse race between Saints and Biarritz to me,
where it will possibly be away wins or even tries scored rather than
the matches between the two teams that will make the difference.

Quote:
>Clearly, the unbeaten teams have an edge at this stage, but it's far
>too early to come to any conclusions. Maybe the most likely
>semi-finalists at this stage are Gloucester, Biarritz, Toulouse and
>Leinster, but anyone ruling out the likes of Montferrand, Llanelli,
>Leicester, or a few others, would be mad.

Gloucester still the most impressive team to me, also given their
Premiership form. Leinster are back on track now that their
internationals are back. Biarritz lost a bit of my confidence this
weekend, yet Toulouse raised its profile.

In the end, possible semi-finalists will only be clear when we know
the seedings for the quarter finals. Past experience tells that a
detail like playing an Italian side in the group stage can be decisive
for a home game and therefore more chance at a semi. Hence I do agree
with your analysis of the most impressive teams, as far as you mention
these four, but I wouldn't call them likely semi-finalists.

Two other points in case you (not you, John, but others that might be
reading this from outside Europe) didn't know. In the Parker Pen
Challenge (or what's its name again?)

* Streaming video highlights of some matches can be found on the BBC's
Rugby website:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/rugby_union/default.stm
* Sarries brought up a record score of 151-0 against Dinamo Bucharest.

--
RSRU FAQ and Shield: http://pino.faithweb.com/rsru

 
 
 

European Cup: RESULTS, standings and comments

Post by ET » Tue, 22 Oct 2002 06:40:01

John - are the crowds always so low????

seem unbelievably low, and uneconomic, for such an elite level competition.

see ya
ET

 
 
 

European Cup: RESULTS, standings and comments

Post by John William » Tue, 22 Oct 2002 07:45:15

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:54:24 +0200, Mees Roelofs

Quote:

>John Williams schrijft:
>>A tough one for Beziers, with Quesada kicking all the home points.
>>Neath's next games home and away v Calvisano will be crucial to their
>>chances. Beziers' visit from Leicester first up in their head-to-head
>>will be of major interest to all three clubs. If Beziers win that,
>>they'll probably be favourites for at least a runners-up QF spot.
>You never know of course, but Bziers are not of the quality to beat
>Leicester if you ask me, even if Leicester isn't exactly up to its
>best and the game being played in France. But you never know though.

On current form away from home, Leicester are definitely beatable. The
fact Neath were so strongly pressing at the end is a promising sign
for Leicester though - Neath were well behind Leicester 2nd half last
Friday.

Quote:
>>POOL TWO  
>>========
>>Curiosity of the weekend was BBC Wales reporting a scoreline of
>>Viadana 24-0 Gloucester with 20 minutes gone on Friday night. Brief
>>hilarity in the Williams household! Perpignan visit Gloucester first
>>in their head-to-heads, which might be to Gloucester's advantage.
>The results against Viadana more or less indicates the difference
>between Perpignan and Gloucester. USAP scored some 45 points at home,
>Gloucester managed 80 away. Interesting to see that Viadana scored a
>reasonable number of points in both games too. Their attack doesn't
>seem that bad. Anyway, Perpignan is a team I would fancy in most other
>pools, but in this group of dead (clich of the week) I don't see them
>reaching the next round. Beating teams like Munster and particularly
>Gloucester at fortress Aim Giral will be tough enough.

Probably right, but there is still a doubt about Gloucester away from
Kingsholm, In my mind, at least. Having a sighter of them at home will
definitely help sooth the nerves, if Gloucester do well at home.

Quote:
>>POOL FIVE  
>>=========
>Toulouse looked like the quality side again last Friday, even though
>such opposition probably makes you look better than you really are.
>The Newport driving maul over 20 meters that lead to their try proved
>once more to me that Toulouse's pack is not outstanding, but I think
>that nobody is going to stop them at the group stage.
>Of interest here is the red card for Xavier Garbajosa for Toulouse,
>which was a bit of a farce. Garba received his second yellow somewhere
>in injury time, but wasn't shown a red. Nonetheless he has been
>suspended by ERC for two matches for receiving a red card. To make
>things worse, the referee (Mr. White) said after the game that the
>offence wasn't worth a second yellow and that he wouldn't have given
>the card, had he known that it was Garbajosa who offended. Toulouse
>have appealed.

Okay, I didn't watch to the end, so missed the second card for
Garbajosa. The first one was so blatant, he deserves anything he gets,
in my view. If White thought the second was worth a yellow (which he
obviously did at the time), then tough on Garba.

Toulouse were extremely impressive with the ball on Friday. Wonderful
running lines, as expected from French thoroughbreds, but their
discipline was a bit suspect at times. Unless they can sort that out,
they might implode in the later stages.

Quote:
>>POOL SIX  
>>========
>>Biarritz nicking the win with a penalty 7 minutes into injury time
>>might cheer up Ulster, who host the French champs next. Cardiff visit
>>Northampton first, which looks way beyond their reach at the moment.
>>I've a feeling this group will be open right up till the end.
>Surprised me that the Saints ran Biarritz so close, but I didn't see
>the game (guess you're not interested in a report of Handschuhsheim vs
>RGH?).

Hey, all is grist to the mill! Why shouldn't the next important tactic
be developed there? Leicester's backs might pick something up, at
least.

Quote:
> I think Cardiff are more or less out of the competition.
>Biarritz are standing a chance at Ravenhill in my opinion. In general,
>it looks like a two-horse race between Saints and Biarritz to me,
>where it will possibly be away wins or even tries scored rather than
>the matches between the two teams that will make the difference.

Yes, very close. Any side winning at Northampton this season will have
done very well indeed. Plus have an ability to shut out the infamous
jazz band, who make Kenny Ball seem sophisticated! (Joke, Dave).

Quote:
>>Clearly, the unbeaten teams have an edge at this stage, but it's far
>>too early to come to any conclusions. Maybe the most likely
>>semi-finalists at this stage are Gloucester, Biarritz, Toulouse and
>>Leinster, but anyone ruling out the likes of Montferrand, Llanelli,
>>Leicester, or a few others, would be mad.
>Gloucester still the most impressive team to me, also given their
>Premiership form. Leinster are back on track now that their
>internationals are back. Biarritz lost a bit of my confidence this
>weekend, yet Toulouse raised its profile.
>In the end, possible semi-finalists will only be clear when we know
>the seedings for the quarter finals. Past experience tells that a
>detail like playing an Italian side in the group stage can be decisive
>for a home game and therefore more chance at a semi. Hence I do agree
>with your analysis of the most impressive teams, as far as you mention
>these four, but I wouldn't call them likely semi-finalists.

Agreed that all will be on the quarter-final draws. Still, all may
have changed by the time the quarters are played.

Quote:
>Two other points in case you (not you, John, but others that might be
>reading this from outside Europe) didn't know. In the Parker Pen
>Challenge (or what's its name again?)
>* Streaming video highlights of some matches can be found on the BBC's
>Rugby website:
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/rugby_union/default.stm
>* Sarries brought up a record score of 151-0 against Dinamo Bucharest.

Aggregate of 238-11 over the two games. The tournament has thrown up
some big miss-matches. I thought Scrum V (Welsh magazine on Sundays)
was going to show every point of Pontypridd's 80-odd v Roma. Just to
prove Welsh teams can score tries and win well. Thankfully they gave
up after five or six tries.

There are some nice looking contests in the next stage though, and the
idea of first round losers might give the knocked-out sides something
to aim for.

--

Regards,
John Williams

 
 
 

European Cup: RESULTS, standings and comments

Post by John William » Tue, 22 Oct 2002 07:59:34

Quote:

>John - are the crowds always so low????

>seem unbelievably low, and uneconomic, for such an elite level competition.

Indeed. Come the quarter-finals, tickets are hard to get, but the
attendances aren't that much higher than league games in the early
stages.

The club game isn't by any way self-financing. I suspect the teams
pick up a bit more TV money though, as quite a few games are
televised.

Having said that, Neath got their highest gate since the Springboks
toured in their game v Leicester last week, and I suspect the crowds
at a few grounds were quite close to capacity.

Gloucester and Bath regularly get full houses, which would be about 12
and 10k, respectively.

I suspect some of the figures are a little misleading, too. Leicester
quote "tickets bought" or something for their attendances, season
tickets are included whether they turn up or not. they could have
5,000 there and still quote about 12k "tickets bought" based on
membership. Yesterday I'd guess the crowd was closer to 11-12k than
the quoted 14k, for example.

--

Regards,
John Williams

 
 
 

European Cup: RESULTS, standings and comments

Post by ET » Tue, 22 Oct 2002 11:33:06

how on earth do they survive financially John????

see ya
ET

 
 
 

European Cup: RESULTS, standings and comments

Post by John William » Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:42:04

Quote:

>how on earth do they survive financially John????

The bottom line is one English club makes a profit. I'm not sure if
any from other nations do.

The money comes from rich investors such as Wray (Saracens),
Ecclestone (Gloucester), some millionaire who's name I forget at Bath,
etc. There's a lot of subsidy from the (English) RFU. The Welsh clubs
are in big financial difficulties, too.

I'm not sure about the Irish or Scottish provinces. The Scottish game
has contracted enormously, with three "superclubs" something like
provinces. The game might be more healthy in Ireland. I'm not sure
about the finances of French or Italian clubs.

--

Regards,
John Williams

 
 
 

European Cup: RESULTS, standings and comments

Post by Mees Roelof » Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:11:37

John Williams schrijft:

Quote:

>>Surprised me that the Saints ran Biarritz so close, but I didn't see
>>the game (guess you're not interested in a report of Handschuhsheim vs
>>RGH?).

>Hey, all is grist to the mill! Why shouldn't the next important tactic
>be developed there? Leicester's backs might pick something up, at
>least.

OK, if you insist

1. Bundesliga, from Fritz Grnebaum Sportpark in Heidelberg

TSV Handschuhsheim      15 (12)
RG Heidelberg             9 (6)

Rather poor game, so if you'd expect interesting backline moves in the
Bundesliga, this was not your game. Five penalties to three was the
final scoreline in a game played in wet conditions. Both teams more or
less equal, with RGH having the better backs (individual skills) and
TSV had the *** pack and most of all, a superior kicker. In the
end, they were the team that came closest to scoring tries, one being
disallowed for a lineout-infringement that nobody but the ref saw.

Speaking of the ref, ***ing at refs isn't exactly my style (there
are only decisions that I would have made otherwise), but this guy
seemed to see things that nobody else could see. Literally. Awarded a
penalty goal, whereas everybody else, including both touch judges, had
seen the ball wide. And too many men in the lineout is a free
kick-offence, not a penalty.

To quote the summary the girl sitting next to me gave over the phone:
"Spiel war schlecht, Schiri war scheisse, Ping Pong verletzt, aber wir
haben gewonnen". 'nuff said.

--
RSRU FAQ and Shield: http://SportToday.org/

 
 
 

European Cup: RESULTS, standings and comments

Post by Steve Parret » Wed, 23 Oct 2002 02:34:03


Quote:

> >how on earth do they survive financially John????

> The bottom line is one English club makes a profit. I'm not sure if
> any from other nations do.

> The money comes from rich investors such as Wray (Saracens),
> Ecclestone (Gloucester), some millionaire who's name I forget at Bath,

<snip>

Wouldn't that be Walkinshaw(Glaws)?  And Brownsword at Bath?

Regards

Steve

 
 
 

European Cup: RESULTS, standings and comments

Post by John William » Wed, 23 Oct 2002 04:03:21

On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:34:03 +0000 (UTC), "Steve Parrett"

Quote:




>> >how on earth do they survive financially John????
>> The bottom line is one English club makes a profit. I'm not sure if
>> any from other nations do.
>> The money comes from rich investors such as Wray (Saracens),
>> Ecclestone (Gloucester), some millionaire who's name I forget at Bath,
><snip>
>Wouldn't that be Walkinshaw(Glaws)?  And Brownsword at Bath?

Correct on both counts! I guess at least Ecclestone is involved in
motor-racing.

--

Regards,
John Williams

 
 
 

European Cup: RESULTS, standings and comments

Post by John William » Wed, 23 Oct 2002 04:03:36

On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:11:37 +0200, Mees Roelofs

Quote:

>John Williams schrijft:

>>>Surprised me that the Saints ran Biarritz so close, but I didn't see
>>>the game (guess you're not interested in a report of Handschuhsheim vs
>>>RGH?).
>>Hey, all is grist to the mill! Why shouldn't the next important tactic
>>be developed there? Leicester's backs might pick something up, at
>>least.
>OK, if you insist
>1. Bundesliga, from Fritz Grnebaum Sportpark in Heidelberg
>TSV Handschuhsheim  15 (12)
>RG Heidelberg                 9 (6)
>Rather poor game, so if you'd expect interesting backline moves in the
>Bundesliga, this was not your game. Five penalties to three was the
>final scoreline in a game played in wet conditions. Both teams more or
>less equal, with RGH having the better backs (individual skills) and
>TSV had the *** pack and most of all, a superior kicker. In the
>end, they were the team that came closest to scoring tries, one being
>disallowed for a lineout-infringement that nobody but the ref saw.
>Speaking of the ref, ***ing at refs isn't exactly my style (there
>are only decisions that I would have made otherwise), but this guy
>seemed to see things that nobody else could see. Literally. Awarded a
>penalty goal, whereas everybody else, including both touch judges, had
>seen the ball wide.

That is a strange one. I don't think I can remember seeing a ref
overrule both the touch judges on a penalty for ages, if at all.

Quote:
>And too many men in the lineout is a free
>kick-offence, not a penalty.

Personally, I find that one of the most irritating offences in rugby.
Turning it into a penalty would make it worse.

Quote:
>To quote the summary the girl sitting next to me gave over the phone:
>"Spiel war schlecht, Schiri war scheisse, Ping Pong verletzt, aber wir
>haben gewonnen". 'nuff said.

Hey, I've seen games on TV like that this season! (Not too sure about
the Ping Pong verletzt bit, mind).

--

Regards,
John Williams