"blame the refs" - how predictable

"blame the refs" - how predictable

Post by Evan Cooc » Mon, 22 Jan 1996 04:00:00


Never fails. Someone's side loses, and within a few hours there are
usually one to many posting about the referees obvious problems with:

1. visual impairment
2. original sin
3. *** abuse
4. mental defect
5. politcal orientation

By and large, this is normal for all sports, but it strikes me that it is
more acute in rugby than in other sports I follow closely. Seems to me
that IF the referee has that much of an influence on the outcome of the
match, then one or more of the basic laws should be changed.

Of course, this presumes that the postings have any credible basis, and
aren't just mildly disguised gnashings of supporters of the losing side.

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"blame the refs" - how predictable

Post by John Willia » Mon, 22 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>Never fails. Someone's side loses, and within a few hours there are
>usually one to many posting about the referees obvious problems with:

[...]
I can't possibly think who you mean Evan :-).

Quote:
>By and large, this is normal for all sports, but it strikes me that it is
>more acute in rugby than in other sports I follow closely.

Well try cricket if you *really* want contentious decisions by
officials!

Quote:
>Seems to me
>that IF the referee has that much of an influence on the outcome of the
>match, then one or more of the basic laws should be changed.

Good Lord, which basic law do you mean?

The "problem" with rugby is that there is really too much for one
official to control. Which is why linesmen are increasingly being
involved in decision making.

In most sports there is one isolated focus of attention, with two or
three at most players close to the ball. By and large the players
nowhere near the point of interest are unable to break any rules/laws,
short of decking a member of the opposing team. In rugby there are
thirty players to watch. The offside rule alone is sufficient to give
half a dozen expert observers an 80 minutes long headache.

A good example was Tony Underwood's first try against France last
year. (At times like this it's nice to look backwards a little.). Was
he offside when Andrew kicked the ball? For an accurate decision the
ref had carefully to watch the forwards grapple with each other, make
sure the French backs were onside, and also be in a good position to
see if Underwood was behind Andrew when he kicked. Impossible.

Also for example (Chester Small, disallowed try England v South
Africa) the officials need to keep up with play when the players can
run 100m in less than eleven seconds, *and* to decide whether a try
was actually scored.

Add to these problems the mystery of what goes on in the scrum, and
rucks and mauls, and its a rare game where the ref doesn't make some
bad calls. Personally I'm amazed how good most refs are.

In the France-England game the ref (D McHugh, Ireland) didn't decide
the result. The French pack did.

*If* he was unduly lenient in the lineout (IMO it was mostly Regan's
throwing) then England should have cut the line to two players more
often, or thrown to Johnson more.

All the best



 
 
 

"blame the refs" - how predictable

Post by William A. T. Cla » Mon, 22 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>Never fails. Someone's side loses, and within a few hours there are
>usually one to many posting about the referees obvious problems with:
>1. visual impairment
>2. original sin
>3. *** abuse
>4. mental defect
>5. politcal orientation
>By and large, this is normal for all sports, but it strikes me that it is
>more acute in rugby than in other sports I follow closely. Seems to me
>that IF the referee has that much of an influence on the outcome of the
>match, then one or more of the basic laws should be changed.
>Of course, this presumes that the postings have any credible basis, and
>aren't just mildly disguised gnashings of supporters of the losing side.
>--

Probably also presupposes that you have seen the game, too, doesn't it?  ;-)
Personally I am going to reserve judgement until this Rugby-challenged country
shows it to me this evening.

William Clark

 
 
 

"blame the refs" - how predictable

Post by John Willia » Tue, 23 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Quote:


> I had my suspicions prior to this match that the
>French pack would have the edge.  However, even though many like Richards, I
>thought Ben Clarke was far and away the best of the England forwards and
>johnson was not far behind.

Yep. The only two experienced forwards to really perform. Leonard was
given a tough time in the scrum in the second half, and generally he
is very reliable (though I'd prefer him kept on the loose head with
Rowntree at tight head).

If it weren't for my belief in giving new caps a fair run (ie until
the end of this 5 Nations), I'd strongly go for the Leicester front
row of Rowntree,***erill and Garforth. They know each other very
well, and***erill is the best lineout thrower I've seen this season.
Admittedly I see him most home games. I'm very much looking forward to
seeing the young pretender Phil Greening of Gloucester, who had a good
England A game on Friday apparently.

Quote:
>Dallagio I feel has some way to go.  He wasnt really in the hunt and missed
>tackles.  He followed the play well but this is mandatory for an opensider.

Yes again. He looked phased by the atmosphere, and uncertain of his
lines of running. He'll improve.

Quote:
>Omojoh was not even close.  

Agreed. Mick Cleary (?, Rugby Special) also put some of the blame for
the lineout on him. Incidently, he also pointed out French centre
Dourthe stamping on Ben Clarke's head causing him to be ***
replaced. Welsh prop Davies was sent off for a less vicious offence
last year, again on Clarke.

Quote:
>I still think England missed a speedy
>opensider.  For the Richards supporters, how does a Richards, Clarke
>(blindside) and Back\Robinson (openside) sound.

Good choice. I'd put Back ahead of Robinson, though Robinson deserved
his chance against SA. I'd stick with Dallaglio at openside though.

Quote:
>I was impressed by Dawson and Sleightholme.  

I'd have preferred a few more snipes from Dawson. In particular there
seemed to be a gap for him at that first 5m scrum after Underwood's
near miss.

Quote:
>I know that obugu (spell) is not considered that great in the scrummaging,
>stakes, but would he have held his ground better - or was it just the boileroom
>not operating on full steam.  The French tight five in the set pieces and
>around the field we very good.

Ben Clegg, when I slagged off the England scrummage a while back, put
a lot of blame on Bayfield. I think he is probably right. Bayf was
anonymous on Saturday. Its a crying shame Simon Shaw of Bristol is
badly injured and out for the season. Having said that, there seems to
be a *** of silence concerning Bayf in the press here. I hadn't
really put him under a spotlight until Ben pointed it out.

Quote:
>My ill informed predictions are as follows:
>France to win the GS

If they can beat their Murrayfield bogey.

Quote:
>No triple crown winners.

Who do you think England and Scotland will lose to? I'm guessing you
think England to lose at Murrayfield and Scotland at Cardiff. One of
these two has a pretty good chance of the triple crown. And who knows,
Wales might just come good.

All the best


 
 
 

"blame the refs" - how predictable

Post by Koo » Tue, 23 Jan 1996 04:00:00

<<>Cricket?!? I thought we were talking about "sports", not some
excuse to

Quote:
>dress in natty whites and such. :-)>>>

....flanneled fools on the green....:)
 
 
 

"blame the refs" - how predictable

Post by Evan Cooc » Tue, 23 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Quote:


>>Never fails. Someone's side loses, and within a few hours there are
>>usually one to many posting about the referees obvious problems with:

>Well try cricket if you *really* want contentious decisions by
>officials!

Cricket?!? I thought we were talking about "sports", not some excuse to
dress in natty whites and such. :-)

Just ***y kidding. :-)
--

      _///_
      -. .-
      ( L )    \////     +--------------------------------------+
    --(\=/)--  (   )     |            Evan G. Cooch             |
   /         \ /  /      |   Department of Biological Sciences  |
   I          V  /       |        Simon Fraser University       |
   I            /        |   Burnaby, British Columbia  V5A 1S6 |

                         +--------------------------------------+
                       http://SportToday.org/

 
 
 

"blame the refs" - how predictable

Post by a.. » Tue, 23 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> In the France-England game the ref (D McHugh, Ireland) didn't decide
> the result. The French pack did.

Yes I think you are right.  I had my suspicions prior to this match that the
French pack would have the edge.  However, even though many like Richards, I
thought Ben Clarke was far and away the best of the England forwards and
johnson was not far behind.

Dallagio I feel has some way to go.  He wasnt really in the hunt and missed
tackles.  He followed the play well but this is mandatory for an opensider.  Omojoh was not even close.  I still think England missed a speedy
opensider.  For the Richards supporters, how does a Richards, Clarke
(blindside) and Back\Robinson (openside) sound.

I was impressed by Dawson and Sleightholme.  

Quote:

> *If* he was unduly lenient in the lineout (IMO it was mostly Regan's
> throwing) then England should have cut the line to two players more
> often, or thrown to Johnson more.

I know that obugu (spell) is not considered that great in the scrummaging,
stakes, but would he have held his ground better - or was it just the boileroom
not operating on full steam.  The French tight five in the set pieces and
around the field we very good.

Quote:

> All the best



My ill informed predictions are as follows:

France to wind the GS
No triple crown winners.
Wales to lose to Ireland.  ( I thought the Irish were unlucky - the Scots were
pouring through all day.  There would have been a few fists flying if that had
happended in NZ and a few penalties.  Peter Wright as usual - what is it with
this guy.  He cant scrum and lives on the wrong side of the ruck).

Tony

 
 
 

"blame the refs" - how predictable

Post by Gilles Re » Tue, 23 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Quote:
> My ill informed predictions are as follows:
> France to wind the GS
> No triple crown winners.

        Don't forget Scotland too fast. They have to welcome France and
        England. They fought France last year in Paris, and France has had
        so many difficulties fighting them during the last RWC. I won't be
        surprised if they win the tournament. (Unfortunately I could not see
        their match against Ireland)
        Sincerely,
--
                Gilles Rech.
                C.I.S.M., Universite Claude Bernard Lyon I & INSA Lyon, France.
 
 
 

"blame the refs" - how predictable

Post by Nicolas Secha » Sat, 27 Jan 1996 04:00:00

|>

|> >>
|>  
|> > I had my suspicions prior to this match that the
|> >French pack would have the edge.  However, even though many like Richards, I
|> >thought Ben Clarke was far and away the best of the England forwards and
|> >johnson was not far behind.
|>
|> Yep. The only two experienced forwards to really perform. Leonard was
|> given a tough time in the scrum in the second half, and generally he
|> is very reliable (though I'd prefer him kept on the loose head with
|> Rowntree at tight head).
|>
|> If it weren't for my belief in giving new caps a fair run (ie until
|> the end of this 5 Nations), I'd strongly go for the Leicester front
|> row of Rowntree,***erill and Garforth. They know each other very
|> well, and***erill is the best lineout thrower I've seen this season.
|> Admittedly I see him most home games. I'm very much looking forward to
|> seeing the young pretender Phil Greening of Gloucester, who had a good
|> England A game on Friday apparently.
|>
|> >Dallagio I feel has some way to go.  He wasnt really in the hunt and missed
|> >tackles.  He followed the play well but this is mandatory for an opensider.
|>
|> Yes again. He looked phased by the atmosphere, and uncertain of his
|> lines of running. He'll improve.
|>
|> >Omojoh was not even close.  
|>
|> Agreed. Mick Cleary (?, Rugby Special) also put some of the blame for
|> the lineout on him. Incidently, he also pointed out French centre
|> Dourthe stamping on Ben Clarke's head causing him to be ***
|> replaced. Welsh prop Davies was sent off for a less vicious offence
|> last year, again on Clarke.

Why? perhaps is he often in the ground, playing the ball or trying to cheat?
No Frenchies ruck only because they are french, on the contrary, an english player
do that to make the game better and clearer.

As a friend of mine said last saturday: "why don't we let them play in a 4 nation
game? it's no use keeping on playing them as they considered us like that. And
now we play like them... This is the worst thing that may happen."

A little bit hard but really, as I read the posts here, I'm near to believe that
they won't be any matches against England like the both against Blacks.

salut
nico

|>
|> >I still think England missed a speedy
|> >opensider.  For the Richards supporters, how does a Richards, Clarke
|> >(blindside) and Back\Robinson (openside) sound.
|>
|> Good choice. I'd put Back ahead of Robinson, though Robinson deserved
|> his chance against SA. I'd stick with Dallaglio at openside though.
|>
|> >I was impressed by Dawson and Sleightholme.  
|>
|> I'd have preferred a few more snipes from Dawson. In particular there
|> seemed to be a gap for him at that first 5m scrum after Underwood's
|> near miss.
|>
|> >I know that obugu (spell) is not considered that great in the scrummaging,
|> >stakes, but would he have held his ground better - or was it just the boileroom
|> >not operating on full steam.  The French tight five in the set pieces and
|> >around the field we very good.
|>
|> Ben Clegg, when I slagged off the England scrummage a while back, put
|> a lot of blame on Bayfield. I think he is probably right. Bayf was
|> anonymous on Saturday. Its a crying shame Simon Shaw of Bristol is
|> badly injured and out for the season. Having said that, there seems to
|> be a *** of silence concerning Bayf in the press here. I hadn't
|> really put him under a spotlight until Ben pointed it out.
|>
|> >My ill informed predictions are as follows:
|>
|> >France to win the GS
|> If they can beat their Murrayfield bogey.
|>
|> >No triple crown winners.
|>
|> Who do you think England and Scotland will lose to? I'm guessing you
|> think England to lose at Murrayfield and Scotland at Cardiff. One of
|> these two has a pretty good chance of the triple crown. And who knows,
|> Wales might just come good.
|>
|> All the best
|>

|>

 
 
 

"blame the refs" - how predictable

Post by John Willia » Sun, 28 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Quote:


>|> Incidently, he also pointed out French centre
>|> Dourthe stamping on Ben Clarke's head causing him to be ***
>|> replaced. Welsh prop Davies was sent off for a less vicious offence
>|> last year, again on Clarke.
>Why? perhaps is he often in the ground, playing the ball or trying to cheat?
>No Frenchies ruck only because they are french, on the contrary, an english player
>do that to make the game better and clearer.

Why does Clarke attract a few kicks to the head in games? Maybe
because he is involved in the action so often. Being quite large he is
unlucky enough to have his head sticking out of rucks and mauls a lot
after making a tackle (Wales v England) or being tackled (France v
England) and people keep tripping over it.

Quote:
>As a friend of mine said last saturday: "why don't we let them play in a 4 nation
>game? it's no use keeping on playing them as they considered us like that. And
>now we play like them... This is the worst thing that may happen."

So you and your friend would rather France had lost, but scored a few
beautiful tries. That is a perfectly valid view. The French side
didn't think that way.

Quote:
>A little bit hard but really, as I read the posts here, I'm near to believe that
>they won't be any matches against England like the both against Blacks.

Well, the attacking play by NZ *and* England in the second half of the
WC95 game proves England can play running rugby on rare occasions.
Once England start to play like thatsometimes in the first half, not
after 70 minutes, then I and many English posters on this group will
be happier spectators.

All the best


 
 
 

"blame the refs" - how predictable

Post by Niall Murra » Mon, 29 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Quote:
> |> Agreed. Mick Cleary (?, Rugby Special) also put some of the blame for
> |> the lineout on him. Incidently, he also pointed out French centre
> |> Dourthe stamping on Ben Clarke's head causing him to be ***
> |> replaced. Welsh prop Davies was sent off for a less vicious offence
> |> last year, again on Clarke.

> Why? perhaps is he often in the ground, playing the ball or trying to
> cheat?

Interesting viewpoint.  So it's Clake's fault that he needed 9 stitches,
since he recklessly placed his head beneath Dourthe's boot . . .

Quote:
> salut
> nico

Regards

Niall

 
 
 

"blame the refs" - how predictable

Post by Ben Cle » Tue, 30 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> As a friend of mine said last saturday: "why don't we let them play in a 4
> nation game? it's no use keeping on playing them as they considered us like
> that. And now we play like them... This is the worst thing that may happen."

It is a shame your friend couldn't appreciate the game, but certainly
England are certainly not the only side who have led France to believe
that they should adapt their style. Fouroux's sides of the late 80s were
built almost totally in response to the style that brought victory over
New Zealand in Nantes in 1986 -- any time you end up consistently
selecting Andrieu ahead of Charvet it says something about your approach
to the game. England only became worth an interest at a later stage.

Anyway, if you stop playing sides simply because they may force you to
consider a different approach (and let's face it some of the great French
wins over the last few years have been squarely based on heroic forward
efforts) and you also don't want to play against Home Nations like Wales
and Ireland, then who are you left with?

As for how one considers the French, well I think that you are right and
that an incredible double standard does exist. For me one of the greatest
shames of the recent unity in the England camp has been the fact that they
have also developed a seige mentality, and are happy to point fingers but
quick to close ranks to defend their own. The refusal to acknowledge that
players have any role beyond winning the game is short sighted and damages
rugby's reputation. What is more the issue wont go away if we ignore it.
While few would deny that Dourthe was a very stupid young hothead, the
French rugby federation should receive huge applause for having the
courage of their convictions; and off the field Dourthe,  by the way in
which he reacted has shown maturity that surely gives some cause for
optimism in his case (even if it is a shame he couldn't behaved with the
same maturity on the field).

For me, there are two very sad points about the incident a week ago last
Saturday. The first is that I strongly believe France are probably the
only country who would have taken any action, something which reflects
extremely poorly on the rugby community in general. The second is that
once again I feel it is an action being punished because of its
consequences. Dourthe is not the first player to commit such an act, yet
he was punished more because Clarke required stitches than because he
kicked out. My own opinion is that rugby should try to bring an end to all
such acts rather than simply punishing those which have serious
consequences.

   Cheers,

      Ben

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