I Blame ZinZan

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Mark David O'Sulliva » Mon, 07 Sep 1998 04:00:00


The deserter, all that experience, and he took the money, and went to
England.
Wasn't the NPC, Super12, All Blacks and TAB sports Cafe earning enough for
him.
How different things could have been this year.
He doesn't make the grade as an All Black Legend

Cheers

Mark

 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Bryan R » Mon, 07 Sep 1998 04:00:00

THE LUDICROUS ATTITUDE OF A BITTER NEW ZEALAND FAN

Quote:
>The deserter, all that experience, and he took the money, and went to
>England.
>Wasn't the NPC, Super12, All Blacks and TAB sports Cafe earning enough for
>him.
>How different things could have been this year.
>He doesn't make the grade as an All Black Legend

OK. Here's a question for you:
You've been working at your job for about 17 years, and performing at
the highest possible level for at least 10. You get paid a yearly
salary and are expected to put in a certain amount of hours, and this
you do, and then some. In fact, it ends up that your entire life
revolves around your job for those 10 years of top level production.
At the end of those 10 years, you look at what you've achieved, and
see that you have done more for your "company" than almost any other
individual in the history of the "company", and you've actually
changed the world's view of your job and it's potential. You have
nothing left to prove, and since you've now achieved such a high
level, you are certain to be criticized if you cannot retain that high
standard for the balance of your career. At the same time, another
similarcompany, but not a direct competitor, offers you an opportunity
to continue doing the job you love, but without the day to day
expectation that you will perform at the absolute highest level
possible regardless of your age and durability. You have more time to
relax and enjoy life, your pay is the same or more or slightly less
(does it really matter?) and you are given the opportunity to teach
your trade to those up and comers in the company so that you can help
raise their standard of achievement as you have helped your current
company. Do you stay just because you have many fans that would like
you to stay, or do you bid them adieu and go on to a new challenge.
Keep in mind that your company has progressed enough that although
they would be best to keep you, they will not crumble should you
leave.

Zinzan Brooke is the greatest, most talented loose forward to ever put
on a rugby jersey, never mind an All Black jersey. He has achieved
more than most mortal men have ever, and will ever dream of achieving.
He has dedicated his life to the dy*** that was the All Blacks, and
created an image that will last forever, regardless of New Zealand's
recent poor showing on the field. No one can claim to have done more
for rugby in New Zealand, or the world for that matter. He has nothing
left to achieve, nothing left to prove. He is now given the
opportunity to show the northern hemisphere how rugby is really
played, and to coach both old and young players in the Harlequins
system how rugby should be played, without the stress and demand of
the All Blacks and the NPC and the Super 12, and even the TAB sports
cafe. Leave the man be. He has done you more service than you could
have possibly hoped for, and if he was really about the money, he
would have gone to Rugby League years ago. Feel fortunate that you
have had the privilage of watching one of the All Time Great Rugby
Players in his prime. You may see more great players (Bobby
Skinstad?), but you will NEVER see another Zinzan Brooke.

Bryan Ray

 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Bryan R » Mon, 07 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Please refer to my article a little further down.

Bryan Ray

 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Mark David O'Sulliva » Mon, 07 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>THE LUDICROUS ATTITUDE OF A BITTER NEW ZEALAND FAN

I'm not bitter, but I am a fan

Quote:
>since you've now achieved such a high
>level, you are certain to be criticized if you cannot retain that high
>standard for the balance of your career.

So you quit, hardly the honourable thing to do. Being a All Black is an
honour, and Zinny should have stayed to serve his country

Quote:
>You are given the opportunity to teach
>your trade to those up and comers in the company so that you can help
>raise their standard of achievement as you have helped your current
>company.

EXACTLY MY POINT - Zinny should have being the old hand with the steading
influence, passing on his experience to the new front row, the new captain,
and teaching them what it means to be an All Black. Because the Iceman
eventually got dropped, doesn't make him any less than the most talented
player New Zealand has known, imagine if he had given up on the All Blacks
at the peak of his career, the difference would have been noticable, and New
Zealand wouldn't have had the team its had over the last few years.

.

Quote:
>Keep in mind that your company has progressed enough that although
>they would be best to keep you, they will not crumble should you
>leave.

Clearly not, 0 - 5 at last count

Quote:
>He has dedicated his life to the dy*** that was the All Blacks, and
>created an image that will last forever,

If he had dedicated his life to the All Blacks, he would still be there, and
we wouldn't have lost our last 5 games.

Where are you from man, Auckland or something

Keep Smiling

Mark

 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by John Cawsto » Mon, 07 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> THE LUDICROUS ATTITUDE OF A BITTER NEW ZEALAND FAN

> >The deserter, all that experience, and he took the money, and went to
> >England.
> >Wasn't the NPC, Super12, All Blacks and TAB sports Cafe earning enough for
> >him.
> >How different things could have been this year.
> >He doesn't make the grade as an All Black Legend

> OK. Here's a question for you:
> You've been working at your job for about 17 years, and performing at
> the highest possible level for at least 10. You get paid a yearly
> salary and are expected to put in a certain amount of hours, and this
> you do, and then some. In fact, it ends up that your entire life
> revolves around your job for those 10 years of top level production.
> At the end of those 10 years, you look at what you've achieved, and
> see that you have done more for your "company" than almost any other
> individual in the history of the "company", and you've actually
> changed the world's view of your job and it's potential. You have
> nothing left to prove, and since you've now achieved such a high
> level, you are certain to be criticized if you cannot retain that high
> standard for the balance of your career. At the same time, another
> similarcompany, but not a direct competitor, offers you an opportunity
> to continue doing the job you love, but without the day to day
> expectation that you will perform at the absolute highest level
> possible regardless of your age and durability. You have more time to
> relax and enjoy life, your pay is the same or more or slightly less
> (does it really matter?) and you are given the opportunity to teach
> your trade to those up and comers in the company so that you can help
> raise their standard of achievement as you have helped your current
> company. Do you stay just because you have many fans that would like
> you to stay, or do you bid them adieu and go on to a new challenge.
> Keep in mind that your company has progressed enough that although
> they would be best to keep you, they will not crumble should you
> leave.

All fair enough, except there are some who would disagree about the non
crumbling bit! :)

Quote:

> Zinzan Brooke is the greatest, most talented loose forward to ever put
> on a rugby jersey, never mind an All Black jersey.

Wrong, Michael Jones leaves him for dead in terms of ability and selectorial
desirability over the past 11 years. ZZ's career did not take off until
1993/94, when he was taken off duty against such teams as Western Australia and
the like.

He achieved parity with M Jones in 1994-1996 and was fading late in 1997.

Other AB loosies you fail to mention are Brian Lochore, Ian Kirkpatrick, Kel
Tremaine and Murrey Mexted. All had major influences on the game, but in
different eras.

Quote:
> He has achieved
> more than most mortal men have ever, and will ever dream of achieving.
> He has dedicated his life to the dy*** that was the All Blacks, and
> created an image that will last forever, regardless of New Zealand's
> recent poor showing on the field. No one can claim to have done more
> for rugby in New Zealand, or the world for that matter.

Brian, you are raving. ZZ was a great player with extraordinary skills which
were mainly on display from 1994-1997. Colin Meads was a great player with
extraordinary skills which were mainly on display from 1957-1973. There is a
difference.

Quote:
> He has nothing
> left to achieve, nothing left to prove. He is now given the
> opportunity to show the northern hemisphere how rugby is really
> played, and to coach both old and young players in the Harlequins
> system how rugby should be played, without the stress and demand of
> the All Blacks and the NPC and the Super 12, and even the TAB sports
> cafe. Leave the man be. He has done you more service than you could
> have possibly hoped for, and if he was really about the money, he
> would have gone to Rugby League years ago. Feel fortunate that you
> have had the privilage of watching one of the All Time Great Rugby
> Players in his prime. You may see more great players (Bobby
> Skinstad?), but you will NEVER see another Zinzan Brooke.

> Bryan Ray

I realise that you were responding to a post which, in Clinton speak, was
"inappropriate" and I thank you for defending a great NZ rugby hero. But you
look too hard at his latter glory days and ignore comparisons with others.

JC

 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Timmy » Wed, 09 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Shit Bryan, I didn't know he could walk on water.

Don't think he was even the best loose forward to play for Auckland, but in
the top three.

Given that he played his 1st test in 1987 he did not exactly dominate his
position.

But I agree he was entitled to go and do his thing wherever he wanted and
good luck. I certainly enjoyed watching him and will not forget him in a
long time.

Quote:

>THE LUDICROUS ATTITUDE OF A BITTER NEW ZEALAND FAN

>>The deserter, all that experience, and he took the money, and went to
>>England.
>>Wasn't the NPC, Super12, All Blacks and TAB sports Cafe earning enough for
>>him.
>>How different things could have been this year.
>>He doesn't make the grade as an All Black Legend

>OK. Here's a question for you:
>You've been working at your job for about 17 years, and performing at
>the highest possible level for at least 10. You get paid a yearly
>salary and are expected to put in a certain amount of hours, and this
>you do, and then some. In fact, it ends up that your entire life
>revolves around your job for those 10 years of top level production.
>At the end of those 10 years, you look at what you've achieved, and
>see that you have done more for your "company" than almost any other
>individual in the history of the "company", and you've actually
>changed the world's view of your job and it's potential. You have
>nothing left to prove, and since you've now achieved such a high
>level, you are certain to be criticized if you cannot retain that high
>standard for the balance of your career. At the same time, another
>similarcompany, but not a direct competitor, offers you an opportunity
>to continue doing the job you love, but without the day to day
>expectation that you will perform at the absolute highest level
>possible regardless of your age and durability. You have more time to
>relax and enjoy life, your pay is the same or more or slightly less
>(does it really matter?) and you are given the opportunity to teach
>your trade to those up and comers in the company so that you can help
>raise their standard of achievement as you have helped your current
>company. Do you stay just because you have many fans that would like
>you to stay, or do you bid them adieu and go on to a new challenge.
>Keep in mind that your company has progressed enough that although
>they would be best to keep you, they will not crumble should you
>leave.

>Zinzan Brooke is the greatest, most talented loose forward to ever put
>on a rugby jersey, never mind an All Black jersey. He has achieved
>more than most mortal men have ever, and will ever dream of achieving.
>He has dedicated his life to the dy*** that was the All Blacks, and
>created an image that will last forever, regardless of New Zealand's
>recent poor showing on the field. No one can claim to have done more
>for rugby in New Zealand, or the world for that matter. He has nothing
>left to achieve, nothing left to prove. He is now given the
>opportunity to show the northern hemisphere how rugby is really
>played, and to coach both old and young players in the Harlequins
>system how rugby should be played, without the stress and demand of
>the All Blacks and the NPC and the Super 12, and even the TAB sports
>cafe. Leave the man be. He has done you more service than you could
>have possibly hoped for, and if he was really about the money, he
>would have gone to Rugby League years ago. Feel fortunate that you
>have had the privilage of watching one of the All Time Great Rugby
>Players in his prime. You may see more great players (Bobby
>Skinstad?), but you will NEVER see another Zinzan Brooke.

>Bryan Ray

 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Dick Jame » Wed, 09 Sep 1998 04:00:00

.... long post snipped: I hope I precis it correctly - ZZ has done more
than his bit and deserves to be able to disengage on his own terms while
he still can. Furthermore he is just about the best and most watchable
backrower (or even player) there has been.

I don't agree with the intergalactic rave rating Bryan gives him -
agreeing more with John Cawston's follow up - but I do agree with the
other part of the argument as Bryan has put it.

It is interesting that in some of the match reports of his first serious
English club game - Harlequins lost away at Leicester - the reporters
suggested that ZZ was short of stamina. Although one match is not much
evidence , perhaps he is aware that he is not now physically up to the
highest levels of the game.
--

Dick James

 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Booni » Wed, 09 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>The deserter, all that experience, and he took the money, and went to
>England.

As player/coach to the Harlequins who showed the universe how He has
transformed them this weekend with a game full of tries.

Boonie -                       (Please remove FEZ when replying)
Darts,Beer,Saracens Fez Boys - The 'Official' Website now at;
http://www.boonie.demon.co.uk (at version (0.1.4) 4/ 9/98)

 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Bryan R » Thu, 10 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Quote:
>All fair enough, except there are some who would disagree about the non
>crumbling bit! :)

Yes, I was thinking about that 0-5 streak when I was writing it, but
they were only "crushed" in one game really, and it's not like they're
absolutely dry of talent. I'm sure a better game plan and plain old
execution would have changed at least 1 of those results.

Quote:
>Wrong, Michael Jones leaves him for dead in terms of ability and selectorial
>desirability over the past 11 years. ZZ's career did not take off until
>1993/94, when he was taken off duty against such teams as Western Australia and
>the like.

Looking back at my post, I agree that I was ranting a bit there. But
hey, at least it gave me some feedback. Unfortunately, because I am
relatively new to the game of rugby, I didn't get to see Michael Jones
in his "prime" (circa '91 world cup i believe). Michael Jones was, and
still is an awesome player, but I'm a bit biased because I got to see
Zinny in his prime, and he was awesome too. The other loosies I failed
to mention because I didn't get to see them play at all. The main
point I was trying to make was that the Kiwis should let Zinny go and
stop blaming him for their losses. It's not the World Cup yet, so they
shouldn't worry so much, though John Hart's position must come under
serious question (which it obviously has). Zinny served his time, and
just because he decided it was his time to go and try something
different, the Kiwis are all mad. Silly, really.

Quote:
>I realise that you were responding to a post which, in Clinton speak, was
>"inappropriate" and I thank you for defending a great NZ rugby hero. But you
>look too hard at his latter glory days and ignore comparisons with others.

Like I said, I didn't mean to belittle the achievements of other great
All Blacks. Sean Fitzpatrick was the best forward I've ever seen play.
But I haven't been around to see all the great All Blacks of the 70's
and even the 80's (I'm only 19). As much as I've heard that Colin
Meads was a super player, and I'm sure he was truly awesome, I never
saw him play. But I agree that I was ranting a bit there, and I
apologize for that. I just got a bit annoyed that someone could blame
Zinzan for the All Blacks recent play when he has nothing to do with
it.

Bryan Ray

 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Bryan R » Thu, 10 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Quote:
>Shit Bryan, I didn't know he could walk on water.

I got a big carried away there. :)

Quote:
>Don't think he was even the best loose forward to play for Auckland, but in
>the top three.

I never got to see Michael Jones in his prime, and I don't know who
played for Auckland before 1990.

Quote:
>Given that he played his 1st test in 1987 he did not exactly dominate his
>position.

It took him a while to get there, but when he did get to his best,
there wasn't any no8 in the world you was better IMO.

Quote:
>But I agree he was entitled to go and do his thing wherever he wanted and
>good luck. I certainly enjoyed watching him and will not forget him in a
>long time.

Which is the point I was trying to make. Once again, I apologize for
going over the top with the praise, but he was a helluva a player and
for anyone to go out and blame him for the "demise" of the All Blacks
is ludicrous.

Bryan Ray

 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Mark David O'Sulliva » Thu, 10 Sep 1998 04:00:00

I'm not blaming him for everything, and he was awesome, and my original post
was "inappropriate".

But,

I did and do feel that he let us down. Our new All Blacks should be learning
from the older ones.
He was called "The Ultimate Competitor" by a team mate once. That is the
kind of people who need to be around the All Black, to instill the All Black
pride and spirit.

And

To those who posted that Zinny was past his use by date.......What Bollocks.
I thought some of my posts were arguable, but to say that Zinny was passed
it is total ***

Cheers

Mark

 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Steve Josep » Sun, 13 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Quote:


>> THE LUDICROUS ATTITUDE OF A BITTER NEW ZEALAND FAN

>> >The deserter, all that experience, and he took the money, and went to
>> >England.
>> >Wasn't the NPC, Super12, All Blacks and TAB sports Cafe earning enough
for
>> >him.
>> >How different things could have been this year.
>> >He doesn't make the grade as an All Black Legend

>> OK. Here's a question for you:
>> You've been working at your job for about 17 years, and performing at
>> the highest possible level for at least 10. You get paid a yearly
>> salary and are expected to put in a certain amount of hours, and this
>> you do, and then some. In fact, it ends up that your entire life
>> revolves around your job for those 10 years of top level production.
>> At the end of those 10 years, you look at what you've achieved, and
>> see that you have done more for your "company" than almost any other
>> individual in the history of the "company", and you've actually
>> changed the world's view of your job and it's potential. You have
>> nothing left to prove, and since you've now achieved such a high
>> level, you are certain to be criticized if you cannot retain that high
>> standard for the balance of your career. At the same time, another
>> similarcompany, but not a direct competitor, offers you an opportunity
>> to continue doing the job you love, but without the day to day
>> expectation that you will perform at the absolute highest level
>> possible regardless of your age and durability. You have more time to
>> relax and enjoy life, your pay is the same or more or slightly less
>> (does it really matter?) and you are given the opportunity to teach
>> your trade to those up and comers in the company so that you can help
>> raise their standard of achievement as you have helped your current
>> company. Do you stay just because you have many fans that would like
>> you to stay, or do you bid them adieu and go on to a new challenge.
>> Keep in mind that your company has progressed enough that although
>> they would be best to keep you, they will not crumble should you
>> leave.

>All fair enough, except there are some who would disagree about the non
>crumbling bit! :)

>> Zinzan Brooke is the greatest, most talented loose forward to ever put
>> on a rugby jersey, never mind an All Black jersey.

>Wrong, Michael Jones leaves him for dead in terms of ability and
selectorial
>desirability over the past 11 years. ZZ's career did not take off until
>1993/94, when he was taken off duty against such teams as Western Australia
and
>the like.

>He achieved parity with M Jones in 1994-1996 and was fading late in 1997.

>Other AB loosies you fail to mention are Brian Lochore, Ian Kirkpatrick,
Kel
>Tremaine and Murrey Mexted. All had major influences on the game, but in
>different eras.

>> He has achieved
>> more than most mortal men have ever, and will ever dream of achieving.
>> He has dedicated his life to the dy*** that was the All Blacks, and
>> created an image that will last forever, regardless of New Zealand's
>> recent poor showing on the field. No one can claim to have done more
>> for rugby in New Zealand, or the world for that matter.

>Brian, you are raving. ZZ was a great player with extraordinary skills
which
>were mainly on display from 1994-1997. Colin Meads was a great player with
>extraordinary skills which were mainly on display from 1957-1973. There is
a
>difference.

>> He has nothing
>> left to achieve, nothing left to prove. He is now given the
>> opportunity to show the northern hemisphere how rugby is really
>> played, and to coach both old and young players in the Harlequins
>> system how rugby should be played, without the stress and demand of
>> the All Blacks and the NPC and the Super 12, and even the TAB sports
>> cafe. Leave the man be. He has done you more service than you could
>> have possibly hoped for, and if he was really about the money, he
>> would have gone to Rugby League years ago. Feel fortunate that you
>> have had the privilage of watching one of the All Time Great Rugby
>> Players in his prime. You may see more great players (Bobby
>> Skinstad?), but you will NEVER see another Zinzan Brooke.

>> Bryan Ray

>I realise that you were responding to a post which, in Clinton speak, was
>"inappropriate" and I thank you for defending a great NZ rugby hero. But
you
>look too hard at his latter glory days and ignore comparisons with others.

>JC

>As a South African all I can say  is that I am glad our isolation came to

an end before this icon of modern Rubgy stopped playing!
Steve.
 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Vittorio Mauriell » Sun, 20 Sep 1998 04:00:00

ciao sono italiano
Mark David O'Sullivan ha scritto nel messaggio

Quote:
>The deserter, all that experience, and he took the money, and went to
>England.
>Wasn't the NPC, Super12, All Blacks and TAB sports Cafe earning enough for
>him.
>How different things could have been this year.
>He doesn't make the grade as an All Black Legend

>Cheers

>Mark

 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Owen » Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Mark David O'Sullivan ha scritto nel messaggio

Quote:

> >The deserter, all that experience, and he took the money, and went to
> >England.
> >Wasn't the NPC, Super12, All Blacks and TAB sports Cafe earning enough for
> >him.
> >How different things could have been this year.

Well, I very much doubt he would have single handedly won even one game
for the All Blacks.
 
 
 

I Blame ZinZan

Post by Mark David O'Sulliva » Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Quote:
>Well, I very much doubt he would have single handedly won even one game
>for the All Blacks.

No, but he would have made a hugh difference, morale wise, and the last two
games we played that we narrowly lost, he would have made the difference,
and we wouldn't have lost them.

By original post was way to harsh, he is a great player, but it would have
been such a different season, if he would have stayed

Cheers

Mark