Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by Gib Bogl » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 02:02:53



Quote:
> Good. It's not the first time such criticism has been levelled at Walsh,
> and not just from England. No point debating whether it changed the game
> but we've always been on the wrong side of his unique "style". Seems
> strange that most other teams can "adapt" to his refereeing but England
> never seem to be able to. I don't suppose anything will come out of
> this, but at least it might make it less likely that Walsh gets picked
> for any more England/Lions games in future, let's hope so.

Some of those collapsed-scrum decisions were quite mysterious to me.
 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by BrritSk » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 02:47:51


Quote:

>> Good. It's not the first time such criticism has been levelled at Walsh,
>> and not just from England. No point debating whether it changed the game
>> but we've always been on the wrong side of his unique "style". Seems
>> strange that most other teams can "adapt" to his refereeing but England
>> never seem to be able to. I don't suppose anything will come out of
>> this, but at least it might make it less likely that Walsh gets picked
>> for any more England/Lions games in future, let's hope so.

> Some of those collapsed-scrum decisions were quite mysterious to me.

The team on top and going forward gets more breaks <shrug>

 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by Mr.Will Musi » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 03:13:52


Quote:


>>> Good. It's not the first time such criticism has been levelled at Walsh,
>>> and not just from England. No point debating whether it changed the game
>>> but we've always been on the wrong side of his unique "style". Seems
>>> strange that most other teams can "adapt" to his refereeing but England
>>> never seem to be able to. I don't suppose anything will come out of
>>> this, but at least it might make it less likely that Walsh gets picked
>>> for any more England/Lions games in future, let's hope so.

>> Some of those collapsed-scrum decisions were quite mysterious to me.

> The team on top and going forward gets more breaks <shrug>

Agree, and the move looks like England looking for excuses.
Remember the RWC final where England were penalised out of it at the scrum -
that side still won, so while the team on top and going forward didn't get
the breaks that time, they still won.

Mr.Will

 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by mr_tiger_fis » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 03:25:44

For me the issue with Walsh is exactly the same issue with Alain Roland - they are liable to let the red mist descend, lose their composure and vent their wrath through dodgy penalty decisions. Invariably they try to redress the balance through further dodgy pens when they have calmed down a bit. Result? Frustration and the loss of a proper competition. Do that at a crucial point in a game and you can give possession and territory and momentum to the team that didn't upset you.

That was precisely the issue that Richard***erill had with Barnes in leicester's narrow loss at Quins. The next week after a damned good stuffing at home to Sarries he was full of praise for the ref and opposition.

It's fashionable to have a go at those who have a go at refs but for goodness sake there are some very visible refs around at the moment. They can be inconsistent and a bit naff. But you at least expect them to stay composed and professional as they go about their role of officiating.

 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by Mentalguy2k » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 03:46:03


Quote:





>>>> Good. It's not the first time such criticism has been levelled at
>>>> Walsh,
>>>> and not just from England. No point debating whether it changed the
>>>> game
>>>> but we've always been on the wrong side of his unique "style". Seems
>>>> strange that most other teams can "adapt" to his refereeing but England
>>>> never seem to be able to. I don't suppose anything will come out of
>>>> this, but at least it might make it less likely that Walsh gets picked
>>>> for any more England/Lions games in future, let's hope so.

>>> Some of those collapsed-scrum decisions were quite mysterious to me.

>> The team on top and going forward gets more breaks <shrug>

> Agree, and the move looks like England looking for excuses.

No I don't think it is, it seems to be a result of the "forensic analysis"
of the video footage after the game. It's reasonable to say "this is what
you asked of our team and this is what we did, so why were you still
penalising us?" because there's no point coaching a team in specifics if it
turns out you're coaching something that gives away penalty after penalty.

I've never liked Walsh when he referees England so I'm inclined to believe
that if he had the chance to be extra-vigilant towards us and turn a blind
eye to the Welsh, he would. If it was anyone else it would be incompetence
but with Walsh, there's something more. He's quite capable of refereeing
properly when he wants to, and again, England aren't the only team to
complain about his "style".

 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by William Clar » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 04:26:13



Quote:

> > Good. It's not the first time such criticism has been levelled at Walsh,
> > and not just from England. No point debating whether it changed the game
> > but we've always been on the wrong side of his unique "style". Seems
> > strange that most other teams can "adapt" to his refereeing but England
> > never seem to be able to. I don't suppose anything will come out of
> > this, but at least it might make it less likely that Walsh gets picked
> > for any more England/Lions games in future, let's hope so.

> Some of those collapsed-scrum decisions were quite mysterious to me.

I thought his scrum calls in the France-Ireland game were equally
incomprehensible, and I stated after that that I was surprised he got
the England-Wales game after that showing.

Some people never learn.

 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by John William » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 05:08:16

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 18:46:03 -0000, "Mentalguy2k8"

Quote:







>>>>> Good. It's not the first time such criticism has been levelled at
>>>>> Walsh,
>>>>> and not just from England. No point debating whether it changed the
>>>>> game
>>>>> but we've always been on the wrong side of his unique "style". Seems
>>>>> strange that most other teams can "adapt" to his refereeing but England
>>>>> never seem to be able to. I don't suppose anything will come out of
>>>>> this, but at least it might make it less likely that Walsh gets picked
>>>>> for any more England/Lions games in future, let's hope so.

>>>> Some of those collapsed-scrum decisions were quite mysterious to me.

>>> The team on top and going forward gets more breaks <shrug>

>> Agree, and the move looks like England looking for excuses.

>No I don't think it is, it seems to be a result of the "forensic analysis"
>of the video footage after the game. It's reasonable to say "this is what
>you asked of our team and this is what we did, so why were you still
>penalising us?" because there's no point coaching a team in specifics if it
>turns out you're coaching something that gives away penalty after penalty.

>I've never liked Walsh when he referees England so I'm inclined to believe
>that if he had the chance to be extra-vigilant towards us and turn a blind
>eye to the Welsh, he would. If it was anyone else it would be incompetence
>but with Walsh, there's something more. He's quite capable of refereeing
>properly when he wants to, and again, England aren't the only team to
>complain about his "style".

I can't see the point of Lancaster's comment regarding the breakdown
leading to the first try. Even if there were some heinous event, refs
make mistakes. The general approach to the breakdown would be a
potentially legitimate area to complain, but as it happens on the day
I though England just had too few players, especially opensides, at
the breakdown. If Walsh had said one thing pre game, but used a
different approach on the field, that would be pretty miserable, but
hard to prove. I would be very surprised if that had happened, too.

The scrum needs a revamp, regardless of whether Wales were pulling a
sneaky or not. England need to be able to cope with sneakies though,
so the responsibility lies on them to improve there. Don't blame the
ref - be better.

--

All the best
John Williams

 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by John » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 05:20:10

IRB ref's scrum calls are incomprehensible.

Is this news?

 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by Mr.Will Musi » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 05:48:33


Quote:







>>>>> Good. It's not the first time such criticism has been levelled at
>>>>> Walsh,
>>>>> and not just from England. No point debating whether it changed the
>>>>> game
>>>>> but we've always been on the wrong side of his unique "style". Seems
>>>>> strange that most other teams can "adapt" to his refereeing but
>>>>> England
>>>>> never seem to be able to. I don't suppose anything will come out of
>>>>> this, but at least it might make it less likely that Walsh gets picked
>>>>> for any more England/Lions games in future, let's hope so.

>>>> Some of those collapsed-scrum decisions were quite mysterious to me.

>>> The team on top and going forward gets more breaks <shrug>

>> Agree, and the move looks like England looking for excuses.

> No I don't think it is, it seems to be a result of the "forensic analysis"
> of the video footage after the game. It's reasonable to say "this is what
> you asked of our team and this is what we did, so why were you still
> penalising us?" because there's no point coaching a team in specifics if
> it turns out you're coaching something that gives away penalty after
> penalty.

> I've never liked Walsh when he referees England so I'm inclined to believe
> that if he had the chance to be extra-vigilant towards us and turn a blind
> eye to the Welsh, he would. If it was anyone else it would be incompetence
> but with Walsh, there's something more. He's quite capable of refereeing
> properly when he wants to, and again, England aren't the only team to
> complain about his "style".

No I get what you're saying, and possibly they only have a certain amount of
time to raise the issues (a deadline etc), but this does LOOK like England
fishing for excuses - whether the media are intent on making it look that
way or the whole of Wales etc.

Mr.Will

 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by Mr.Will Musi » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 05:49:39


Quote:
> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 18:46:03 -0000, "Mentalguy2k8"







>>>>>> Good. It's not the first time such criticism has been levelled at
>>>>>> Walsh,
>>>>>> and not just from England. No point debating whether it changed the
>>>>>> game
>>>>>> but we've always been on the wrong side of his unique "style". Seems
>>>>>> strange that most other teams can "adapt" to his refereeing but
>>>>>> England
>>>>>> never seem to be able to. I don't suppose anything will come out of
>>>>>> this, but at least it might make it less likely that Walsh gets
>>>>>> picked
>>>>>> for any more England/Lions games in future, let's hope so.

>>>>> Some of those collapsed-scrum decisions were quite mysterious to me.

>>>> The team on top and going forward gets more breaks <shrug>

>>> Agree, and the move looks like England looking for excuses.

>>No I don't think it is, it seems to be a result of the "forensic analysis"
>>of the video footage after the game. It's reasonable to say "this is what
>>you asked of our team and this is what we did, so why were you still
>>penalising us?" because there's no point coaching a team in specifics if
>>it
>>turns out you're coaching something that gives away penalty after penalty.

>>I've never liked Walsh when he referees England so I'm inclined to believe
>>that if he had the chance to be extra-vigilant towards us and turn a blind
>>eye to the Welsh, he would. If it was anyone else it would be incompetence
>>but with Walsh, there's something more. He's quite capable of refereeing
>>properly when he wants to, and again, England aren't the only team to
>>complain about his "style".

> I can't see the point of Lancaster's comment regarding the breakdown
> leading to the first try. Even if there were some heinous event, refs
> make mistakes. The general approach to the breakdown would be a
> potentially legitimate area to complain, but as it happens on the day
> I though England just had too few players, especially opensides, at
> the breakdown. If Walsh had said one thing pre game, but used a
> different approach on the field, that would be pretty miserable, but
> hard to prove. I would be very surprised if that had happened, too.

> The scrum needs a revamp, regardless of whether Wales were pulling a
> sneaky or not. England need to be able to cope with sneakies though,
> so the responsibility lies on them to improve there. Don't blame the
> ref - be better.

Exactly - Brian Moore said it in commentary - and when England were
successful (whatever era that was) they were accused of cheating. McCaw has
been accused of it all the time as well - just be better!

Mr.Will

 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by Ben » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 17:02:01

<snip>

Quote:
> No I get what you're saying, and possibly they only have a certain amount of

> time to raise the issues (a deadline etc), but this does LOOK like England

> fishing for excuses - whether the media are intent on making it look that

> way or the whole of Wales etc.

In fairness to Lancaster, the Telegraph article is trollbait.

The BBC's article is less trolly and talks more about seeking clarification: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21853814

I'm totally OK with this: the refereeing through the 6N was poor and heavily interpretative, and I'm thinking more on non-England games. I'm bored of endless scrum resets. I'm bored of spinning a coin at the breakdown to see which side gets penalised for holding on or not releasing, or going over the ball or going off their feet.

I'm also bemused as to why the IRB doesn't enforce simple laws like scrum put ins and players not handling the ball on the ground in rucks. I lose count in games of the times when the tackled player holds the ball steady for the scrum half or pops a pass away after his side have rucked past him.

I don't understand why it's ok to clear defenders out of rucks by wrestling them away by the neck and yet the IRB gets its panties in an utter twist over very marginal tip tackles.

So I'm all for coaches have a constructive discussion about refereeing performance. It's unfortunate it's made it into the public arena, however.

 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by Mr.Will Musi » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 18:12:27


<snip>

Quote:
> No I get what you're saying, and possibly they only have a certain amount
> of

> time to raise the issues (a deadline etc), but this does LOOK like England

> fishing for excuses - whether the media are intent on making it look that

> way or the whole of Wales etc.

In fairness to Lancaster, the Telegraph article is trollbait.

The BBC's article is less trolly and talks more about seeking clarification:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21853814

I'm totally OK with this: the refereeing through the 6N was poor and heavily
interpretative, and I'm thinking more on non-England games. I'm bored of
endless scrum resets. I'm bored of spinning a coin at the breakdown to see
which side gets penalised for holding on or not releasing, or going over the
ball or going off their feet.

I'm also bemused as to why the IRB doesn't enforce simple laws like scrum
put ins and players not handling the ball on the ground in rucks. I lose
count in games of the times when the tackled player holds the ball steady
for the scrum half or pops a pass away after his side have rucked past him.

I don't understand why it's ok to clear defenders out of rucks by wrestling
them away by the neck and yet the IRB gets its panties in an utter twist
over very marginal tip tackles.

So I'm all for coaches have a constructive discussion about refereeing
performance. It's unfortunate it's made it into the public arena, however.
-------

I guess trollbait is part of the fun eh!
The number of posts I've seen from Welshmen saying they thought Walsh had an
outstanding game, even though he went easy on England (after referencing
this article) is quite funny!
Oddly enough they say the Italy v Ireland game was one of the poorest ref
displays in history too!

Mr.Will

 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by kev or lo » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 18:20:15


Quote:

> IRB ref's scrum calls are incomprehensible.

> Is this news?

  No.

One can only hope the frequency and loudness of Coaches complaining
about this will eventually have some effect.

Personally I thought Wales had the stronger scrum and pretty much got
their reward for it. It's just that Walsh didn't have a clue as to why.

 
 
 

Walsh - England to complain to IRB

Post by Uncle Dav » Fri, 22 Mar 2013 23:39:09


Quote:

>> Good. It's not the first time such criticism has been levelled at Walsh,
>> and not just from England. No point debating whether it changed the game
>> but we've always been on the wrong side of his unique "style". Seems
>> strange that most other teams can "adapt" to his refereeing but England
>> never seem to be able to. I don't suppose anything will come out of
>> this, but at least it might make it less likely that Walsh gets picked
>> for any more England/Lions games in future, let's hope so.

> Some of those collapsed-scrum decisions were quite mysterious to me.

I think that's the key to it.  Too often. he offered no explanation and
the players trotted away looking mystified.  Brian Moore is usually
quite good at identifying what is wrong in scrums, but he was stumped as
often as not.  I think if you're going to constantly ping for offences
you are seeing then you should warn the offending side as you would for
persistent offending in defence.  It seemed to me that he was saying
"get it right you lot but I'm not going to tell you what you're getting
wrong".

It made what was already an ugly spectacle from an English viewpoint
even uglier and did Walsh no favours at all.

UD