HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by Ferrari Fanat » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00


Geez, If the Tifosi are accused of having "Red Vision", then I don't
know what you would call most of the Hill fans....  A lot of the post
related to DH range from sad to really being out of touch with
reality.

First of all, I will come clean and state I am not a Hill supporter.
And in general, I do not respect him.  However, I will not go on a
illogical rant of why DH is the world worst driver etc....Simply
because he is not a bad driver.  DH is a good driver who time has
passed.  

However,  I will state a few reasons why I do not support/respect him.

Hill is supposed to be a professional racing driver.  Period.  As a
professional, he signed a contract with Jordan to give his all to the
team for the duration of his contract.   He is being paid millions to
be "motivated."   If Hill is not motivated, he owes some money back to
Jordan.   Reason 1.

I don't remember Senna, Prost, MS, JV, Piquet or any other former
World Champion giving up the way Hill has.   Certainly, other former
champions have had poor results, and had to contend with unfavorable
rules etc, but conducted themselves with determination and class.
IMO, Hill has not.   Reason 2.

Jordan has given Hill the best car they could afford.  HHF has shown
the car is very good.   Hill has not used the car anywhere near it's
potential.  (Reason 3)

As for Jordan, being nearly equal with Ferrari and McLaren as a team
(as a few has stated), that is a Joke!  Jordan annual racing budget is
no where near the budget of Ferrari or McLaren, nor do they have the
personnel or facilities.  I would not expect Hill or HHF to be on the
podium, unless a Ferrari or McLaren failed.  

While I do feel DH was "given" a World Championship is a very ***
car, that is illrelevant.  Just like it is illrelevant to argue about
MS titles.    The fact is DH is a champion.  The record book show it.

However, part of being a champion is showing what you can do in a car
that is not the *** car in the field.  A champion finds a way to
win or to get the most out of the car.    Damon has not be able to
consistently demonstrate that trait.  If Damon says he dislikes the
grooved tires and that is part of the reason for his lack of
performance, it shows how limited his driving skills really are.  All
other drivers have to contend with the same rules.   Most of the
drivers are not as fortunate as DH to be in a car as capable as a
Jordan.   Yet, this season, a significant number of drivers in far
less capable cars have out performed DH.    Reason 4

There is simply no logical reason why DH is not as equal or faster
then HHF.   DH has spent significantly more time in a Jordan then HHF.
He has done more development work.  He has driven more miles.   As
most know, it's a tremendous advantage, when comparing teammates.
From almost the first practice session, HHF as demonstrated he is
faster then DH when it counts.  Reason 5.

DH fans take your blinders off.   Damon is a very good driver, but not
in the driving class of Senna, Prost, MS and the few others.  He WAS
worthy of his time in F1.   But, sadly his time has passed.   He has
no one to blame but himself.    

I hope he does get the send off he deserves, at Silverstone.  He is
one of the select few people, in one of the world's select sports to
have earned his title of World Champion.   He certainly has earned it.

Russ

 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by the most watched TV station in Mongol » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00

How dare you speak in such a way!!   Now say 3 "Hail Damons" and 3 "Bless
Jordans" and go to bed!


Quote:

> Geez, If the Tifosi are accused of having "Red Vision", then I don't
> know what you would call most of the Hill fans....  A lot of the post
> related to DH range from sad to really being out of touch with
> reality.

> First of all, I will come clean and state I am not a Hill supporter.
> And in general, I do not respect him.  However, I will not go on a
> illogical rant of why DH is the world worst driver etc....Simply
> because he is not a bad driver.  DH is a good driver who time has
> passed.

> However,  I will state a few reasons why I do not support/respect him.

> Hill is supposed to be a professional racing driver.  Period.  As a
> professional, he signed a contract with Jordan to give his all to the
> team for the duration of his contract.   He is being paid millions to
> be "motivated."   If Hill is not motivated, he owes some money back to
> Jordan.   Reason 1.

> I don't remember Senna, Prost, MS, JV, Piquet or any other former
> World Champion giving up the way Hill has.   Certainly, other former
> champions have had poor results, and had to contend with unfavorable
> rules etc, but conducted themselves with determination and class.
> IMO, Hill has not.   Reason 2.

> Jordan has given Hill the best car they could afford.  HHF has shown
> the car is very good.   Hill has not used the car anywhere near it's
> potential.  (Reason 3)

> As for Jordan, being nearly equal with Ferrari and McLaren as a team
> (as a few has stated), that is a Joke!  Jordan annual racing budget is
> no where near the budget of Ferrari or McLaren, nor do they have the
> personnel or facilities.  I would not expect Hill or HHF to be on the
> podium, unless a Ferrari or McLaren failed.

> While I do feel DH was "given" a World Championship is a very ***
> car, that is illrelevant.  Just like it is illrelevant to argue about
> MS titles.    The fact is DH is a champion.  The record book show it.

> However, part of being a champion is showing what you can do in a car
> that is not the *** car in the field.  A champion finds a way to
> win or to get the most out of the car.    Damon has not be able to
> consistently demonstrate that trait.  If Damon says he dislikes the
> grooved tires and that is part of the reason for his lack of
> performance, it shows how limited his driving skills really are.  All
> other drivers have to contend with the same rules.   Most of the
> drivers are not as fortunate as DH to be in a car as capable as a
> Jordan.   Yet, this season, a significant number of drivers in far
> less capable cars have out performed DH.    Reason 4

> There is simply no logical reason why DH is not as equal or faster
> then HHF.   DH has spent significantly more time in a Jordan then HHF.
> He has done more development work.  He has driven more miles.   As
> most know, it's a tremendous advantage, when comparing teammates.
> From almost the first practice session, HHF as demonstrated he is
> faster then DH when it counts.  Reason 5.

> DH fans take your blinders off.   Damon is a very good driver, but not
> in the driving class of Senna, Prost, MS and the few others.  He WAS
> worthy of his time in F1.   But, sadly his time has passed.   He has
> no one to blame but himself.

> I hope he does get the send off he deserves, at Silverstone.  He is
> one of the select few people, in one of the world's select sports to
> have earned his title of World Champion.   He certainly has earned it.

> Russ


 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by Stefan Wend » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00

...

Quote:
> Hill is supposed to be a professional racing driver.  Period.  As a
> professional, he signed a contract with Jordan to give his all to the
> team for the duration of his contract.   He is being paid millions to
> be "motivated."   If Hill is not motivated, he owes some money back to
> Jordan.   Reason 1.

Sure, I'd see it the same way. But none of us knows if he won't be
paying back what he owes.

Quote:
> I don't remember Senna, Prost, MS, JV, Piquet or any other former
> World Champion giving up the way Hill has.  

Does the name Niki Lauda perhaps ring a bell ?

Quote:
> As for Jordan, being nearly equal with Ferrari and McLaren as a team
> (as a few has stated), that is a Joke!  Jordan annual racing budget is
> no where near the budget of Ferrari or McLaren, nor do they have the
> personnel or facilities.  I would not expect Hill or HHF to be on the
> podium, unless a Ferrari or McLaren failed.

Expect or not, it did happen.

< big snip >

For the rest, I agree more or less

--
Stevie

Life is a road, not a destination

 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by barbarella5.. » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00



Quote:

> ...

> > Hill is supposed to be a professional racing driver.  Period.  As a
> > professional, he signed a contract with Jordan to give his all to
the
> > team for the duration of his contract.   He is being paid millions
to
> > be "motivated."   If Hill is not motivated, he owes some money back
to
> > Jordan.   Reason 1.

> Sure, I'd see it the same way. But none of us knows if he won't be
> paying back what he owes.

What?  You think they get the whole lot at the start of the season or
something?  They get paid in installments throughout the season.  I
remember Ralf last season having to chase Jordan with a solicitors
letter to get some of his wages out of them.

Anyhow, Benson & Hedges pay Hill, not Jordan.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by Fran » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00

I just want to take exception to 1 thing you wrote :: I don't remember
Senna, Prost, MS, JV, Piquet or any other former
World Champion giving up the way Hill has.

Maybe you don't remember Senna quitting McLaren because he couldn't beat
the Williams. This happened just 1 season after McLaren stopped supplying
dear Ayrton with the best cars for the last half decade.

Quote:

> Geez, If the Tifosi are accused of having "Red Vision", then I don't
> know what you would call most of the Hill fans....  A lot of the post
> related to DH range from sad to really being out of touch with
> reality.

> First of all, I will come clean and state I am not a Hill supporter.
> And in general, I do not respect him.  However, I will not go on a
> illogical rant of why DH is the world worst driver etc....Simply
> because he is not a bad driver.  DH is a good driver who time has
> passed.

> However,  I will state a few reasons why I do not support/respect him.

> Hill is supposed to be a professional racing driver.  Period.  As a
> professional, he signed a contract with Jordan to give his all to the
> team for the duration of his contract.   He is being paid millions to
> be "motivated."   If Hill is not motivated, he owes some money back to
> Jordan.   Reason 1.

> I don't remember Senna, Prost, MS, JV, Piquet or any other former
> World Champion giving up the way Hill has.   Certainly, other former
> champions have had poor results, and had to contend with unfavorable
> rules etc, but conducted themselves with determination and class.
> IMO, Hill has not.   Reason 2.

> Jordan has given Hill the best car they could afford.  HHF has shown
> the car is very good.   Hill has not used the car anywhere near it's
> potential.  (Reason 3)

> As for Jordan, being nearly equal with Ferrari and McLaren as a team
> (as a few has stated), that is a Joke!  Jordan annual racing budget is
> no where near the budget of Ferrari or McLaren, nor do they have the
> personnel or facilities.  I would not expect Hill or HHF to be on the
> podium, unless a Ferrari or McLaren failed.

> While I do feel DH was "given" a World Championship is a very ***
> car, that is illrelevant.  Just like it is illrelevant to argue about
> MS titles.    The fact is DH is a champion.  The record book show it.

> However, part of being a champion is showing what you can do in a car
> that is not the *** car in the field.  A champion finds a way to
> win or to get the most out of the car.    Damon has not be able to
> consistently demonstrate that trait.  If Damon says he dislikes the
> grooved tires and that is part of the reason for his lack of
> performance, it shows how limited his driving skills really are.  All
> other drivers have to contend with the same rules.   Most of the
> drivers are not as fortunate as DH to be in a car as capable as a
> Jordan.   Yet, this season, a significant number of drivers in far
> less capable cars have out performed DH.    Reason 4

> There is simply no logical reason why DH is not as equal or faster
> then HHF.   DH has spent significantly more time in a Jordan then HHF.
> He has done more development work.  He has driven more miles.   As
> most know, it's a tremendous advantage, when comparing teammates.
> From almost the first practice session, HHF as demonstrated he is
> faster then DH when it counts.  Reason 5.

> DH fans take your blinders off.   Damon is a very good driver, but not
> in the driving class of Senna, Prost, MS and the few others.  He WAS
> worthy of his time in F1.   But, sadly his time has passed.   He has
> no one to blame but himself.

> I hope he does get the send off he deserves, at Silverstone.  He is
> one of the select few people, in one of the world's select sports to
> have earned his title of World Champion.   He certainly has earned it.

> Russ

 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by Steve » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Quote:

>Geez, If the Tifosi are accused of having "Red Vision", then I don't
>know what you would call most of the Hill fans....  A lot of the post
>related to DH range from sad to really being out of touch with
>reality.

Woooo, pot calling the kettle RED or what? ;-)

Quote:
>First of all, I will come clean and state I am not a Hill supporter.

With a sig like that, I'm really surprised! ;-)

Quote:
>And in general, I do not respect him.  However, I will not go on a
>illogical rant of why DH is the world worst driver etc....Simply
>because he is not a bad driver.  DH is a good driver who time has
>passed.

>However,  I will state a few reasons why I do not support/respect him.

>Hill is supposed to be a professional racing driver.  Period.  As a
>professional, he signed a contract with Jordan to give his all to the
>team for the duration of his contract.   He is being paid millions to
>be "motivated."   If Hill is not motivated, he owes some money back to
>Jordan.   Reason 1.

He receives a retainer for driving for Jordan.  I don't think you'll find
any clause relating to commitment, dedication, or 'giving his all' in *any*
drivers' contract...  Even if your supposition was correct, it would be a
private matter between the team and Hill.

Although Hill *may* not have performed to everyones' expectations, including
his own, the fact that Jordan have been unable to supply two cars of equal
reliability during practise and qualifying (and races) should also be taken
into account.

Quote:
>I don't remember Senna, Prost, MS, JV, Piquet or any other former
>World Champion giving up the way Hill has.

Nigel Mansell?  Niki Lauda?  Jackie Stewart?  There are more...

Quote:
>Certainly, other former
>champions have had poor results, and had to contend with unfavorable
>rules etc, but conducted themselves with determination and class.
>IMO, Hill has not.   Reason 2.

How has Hill *not* conducted himself with class?  All of the rubbish of
'will he won't he' can be attributed to the so called professional
'journalists' who, because neither Hill nor Jordan would talk to them
decided to make up the 'facts' to fit their stories.  Not an unusual
occurrence.  Hill's in-the-heat-of-the-moment comments about "that *may*
have been my last GP" was converted without any further evidence to "Hill
has run his last race" presented as fact when it wasn't.  The lack of class
has been shown by the world's news organisations and motoring press,
including sadly the magazine Autosport, who have resorted to sensationalism
in place of truth to sell magazines.  All along, both Hill and EJ have shown
true class.

Quote:
>Jordan has given Hill the best car they could afford.  HHF has shown
>the car is very good.   Hill has not used the car anywhere near it's
>potential.  (Reason 3)

Hill would probably agree with you.  However, in mitigation, for a driver to
commit himself totally to driving a car on the edge, he *must* have total
faith in that car and it's preparation, *including* the regulations to which
it is built (ie tyres).  Hill does *not* have faith in the tyres (a
generally accepted view among *all* the drivers), indeed it is widely
accepted among the drivers that the tyres are dangerous, due to the fact
that the difference between 'on the limit' and 'over the limit' is instant,
and not tactile in any way, added to which the decreased tread area and
harder *** mean that when control is lost the tyres do nothing to inhibit
the speed of the car.  Nor can the cars be 'got back' by driving (MS in the
wall in Canada being a good example).

Quote:
>As for Jordan, being nearly equal with Ferrari and McLaren as a team
>(as a few has stated), that is a Joke!  Jordan annual racing budget is
>no where near the budget of Ferrari or McLaren, nor do they have the
>personnel or facilities.  I would not expect Hill or HHF to be on the
>podium, unless a Ferrari or McLaren failed.

Agreed.

Quote:
>While I do feel DH was "given" a World Championship is a very ***
>car, that is illrelevant.  Just like it is illrelevant to argue about
>MS titles.    The fact is DH is a champion.  The record book show it.

ALL world champions have been so driving the *** cars of their
respective seasons.  There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Quote:
>However, part of being a champion is showing what you can do in a car
>that is not the *** car in the field.  A champion finds a way to
>win or to get the most out of the car.    Damon has not be able to
>consistently demonstrate that trait.

That is a very debatable point.  Personally, I think that Hill *has* been
able to demonstrate his consistent speed in a car which is not one of the
top three - at Arrows and Jordan last year.  That is something that for
example Michael Schumacher has *not* been able to demonstrate.  All of the
teams he has driven for have shown positive advancement as a direct result
of his input.  They *all* say so!  Hill's ability to turn in consistent
laptimes lap after lap are what makes him so special as a development
driver, together with his technical feedback.

What Hill *has* demonstrated this year in the Jordan is that, unlike HHF and
many other drivers, he is *not* prepared to put his life at risk regarding
the limit of the tyres in the same way that the others are.  That does not
make him a lesser driver, it does show that perhaps his self-preservation
instinct is stronger.  HHF's crash in Canada and the closeness of calamity
as a result made Hill think more about the danger and increased his hatred
of the tyres, which have singularly failed to acheive Moseley's objectives
and in fact caused more danger for the drivers.

Quote:
>If Damon says he dislikes the
>grooved tires and that is part of the reason for his lack of
>performance, it shows how limited his driving skills really are.  All
>other drivers have to contend with the same rules.

Not at all.  It just shows, as I said before, that his awareness of
self-preservation is greater.  The fact that he might *refuse* to drive on
the *variable* limit of the tyres is not evidence that he is incapable of
doing so.

Quote:
>Most of the
>drivers are not as fortunate as DH to be in a car as capable as a
>Jordan.   Yet, this season, a significant number of drivers in far
>less capable cars have out performed DH.    Reason 4

Most of the drivers are indeed in cars as capable as the Jordan.  The gap
from pole to say, 16th on the grid at every race proves that, when compared
to races say two or three years ago.

Quote:
>There is simply no logical reason why DH is not as equal or faster
>then HHF.   DH has spent significantly more time in a Jordan then HHF.
>He has done more development work.  He has driven more miles.   As
>most know, it's a tremendous advantage, when comparing teammates.
>From almost the first practice session, HHF as demonstrated he is
>faster then DH when it counts.  Reason 5.

*All* the drivers have complained vocally about how easily the cars are
changed completely by small changes in the temperature, wind or humidity.
The fact that Hill is *seemingly not prepared* to take the level of risk
that the young guns are is a factor, and is *entirely* logical.  You might
not like it as a reason, but then your life's not on the line is it?

Quote:
>DH fans take your blinders off.   Damon is a very good driver, but not
>in the driving class of Senna, Prost, MS and the few others.  He WAS
>worthy of his time in F1.   But, sadly his time has passed.   He has
>no one to blame but himself.

Take your own blinkers off!  Both Senna and Prost accepted Hill's
qualities - and he beat Prost on a number of occasions in his first real
year in F1.  *IF* his time is past, it is *only* because of the rules as
they stand.  It is a sign of his class that he is prepared to prematurely
end his career rather than risk his life needlessly when he can't see the
point.

Quote:
>I hope he does get the send off he deserves, at Silverstone.  He is
>one of the select few people, in one of the world's select sports to
>have earned his title of World Champion.   He certainly has earned it.

Me too.  I also hope that he finishes the season.

Steve.

 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by mj.. » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Quote:
> First of all, I will come clean and state I am not a Hill supporter.
> And in general, I do not respect him.  However, I will not go on a
> illogical rant of why DH is the world worst driver etc....Simply
> because he is not a bad driver.  DH is a good driver who time has
> passed.

Er...how come he posted the 2nd quickest qualifying time on Thursday??

Quote:

> However,  I will state a few reasons why I do not support/respect him.

> Hill is supposed to be a professional racing driver.  Period.  As a
> professional, he signed a contract with Jordan to give his all to the
> team for the duration of his contract.   He is being paid millions to
> be "motivated."   If Hill is not motivated, he owes some money back to
> Jordan.   Reason 1.

I case you didn't know....money in itself is not a motivator....unless
you have none. Damon has lots...he needs a genuine chance at winning to
be fully motivated...just as any former champion needs. I really doubt
Schumi would try that hard if his team was not capable of winning a
WCship in the near term.

Quote:
> I don't remember Senna, Prost, MS, JV, Piquet or any other former
> World Champion giving up the way Hill has.   Certainly, other former
> champions have had poor results, and had to contend with unfavorable
> rules etc, but conducted themselves with determination and class.
> IMO, Hill has not.   Reason 2.

> Jordan has given Hill the best car they could afford.  HHF has shown
> the car is very good.   Hill has not used the car anywhere near it's
> potential.  (Reason 3)

This is true...for the last 3-5 races anyway. But all drivers get into
slumps.

Quote:
> As for Jordan, being nearly equal with Ferrari and McLaren as a team
> (as a few has stated), that is a Joke!  Jordan annual racing budget is
> no where near the budget of Ferrari or McLaren, nor do they have the
> personnel or facilities.  I would not expect Hill or HHF to be on the
> podium, unless a Ferrari or McLaren failed.

> While I do feel DH was "given" a World Championship is a very ***
> car, that is illrelevant.  Just like it is illrelevant to argue about
> MS titles.    The fact is DH is a champion.  The record book show it.

> However, part of being a champion is showing what you can do in a car
> that is not the *** car in the field.  A champion finds a way to
> win or to get the most out of the car.    Damon has not be able to
> consistently demonstrate that trait.

No one can say this for sure, as we really have no idea how good/bad the
equipment he has is . Damon has demonstarted nothing short of sheer
brilliance on several occasions, but sometimes he seems quite mediocre.
Like I said, its not uncommon for drivers to have lapses.

If Damon says he dislikes the

Quote:
> grooved tires and that is part of the reason for his lack of
> performance, it shows how limited his driving skills really are.  All
> other drivers have to contend with the same rules.   Most of the
> drivers are not as fortunate as DH to be in a car as capable as a
> Jordan.   Yet, this season, a significant number of drivers in far
> less capable cars have out performed DH.    Reason 4

Which drivers in less capable cars?? The Stewart is widely regarded to
be BETTER then the Jordan....and really it depends on finding the right
setup. But I guess even Damon agrees with you here so I won't argue
much.

Quote:
> There is simply no logical reason why DH is not as equal or faster
> then HHF.   DH has spent significantly more time in a Jordan then HHF.
> He has done more development work.  He has driven more miles.   As
> most know, it's a tremendous advantage, when comparing teammates.
> From almost the first practice session, HHF as demonstrated he is
> faster then DH when it counts.  Reason 5.

> DH fans take your blinders off.   Damon is a very good driver, but not
> in the driving class of Senna, Prost, MS and the few others.  He WAS
> worthy of his time in F1.   But, sadly his time has passed.   He has
> no one to blame but himself.

Er...maybe AGE might have something to do with it. I still think he's
capable, but you're partly right. Damon's physical and mental
preparation for the 1996 WC was nothing short of phenomenal, if he wants
to race, he should try replicating that effort.

Quote:
> I hope he does get the send off he deserves, at Silverstone.  He is
> one of the select few people, in one of the world's select sports to
> have earned his title of World Champion.   He certainly has earned it.

> Russ

I personally think he's as deserving as any WC in history. How many
years did Mika H. wallow around without winning. In fact the 1997
McLaren was clearly a top car, yet Mika only won 1 race after JV let
him.

Mark

Sent via Deja.com http://SportToday.org/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by Tim Cunning » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Well how about this

Senna was killed while still in his prime, but some detected his star was
starting to fade anyway. Might have made 94 interesting, but could he have
beaten MS in his own right?

Prost Retired as a World Champion, driving the best car. He in fact was
involved in some pretty serious contractual issues whereby he wanted to
drive for McLaren in 94 (so the story went), but Williams said no. Lets not
forget, he retired while under contract, just like Hill. Only his reasons
were that he couldn't get along with Senna.

JV has, until this season, always had reasonable equipment at his disposal.
He has had no reason to be down. He is young, really still starting out. He
does not have family to think about as such. He and BAR are a building
force.

Piquet made an arse of himself in a lowly Benetton before he did retire. he
did not go out on top, thats for sure. While he drove pretty well for
Benetton, it was not spectacular. In fact, he was forced out of F1 becuase
there were no good rides left, and Benetton gave the Keys to the Shue
instead of him.

The Shue is still driving well, and has a sizable incentive not to lose his
motivation. However, be warned, if he and ferrari don't win this season,
this might change. He's fast destroying any hope of being a 3, 4 or even 5
times champ like it seemed possible in 95. You actually have to ask is he in
a cruise and collect mode now?. He must look for success or will look just
as big an arse as Hill appears to some. Oh, and isn't he supposed to be
great at winning in a bad car? Is it a bad car? If so, leave, if not, show
some pace...

Look at a guy like Alan Jones. World Champion, made a total arse of himself
in 1986 after coming back out of retirement.

Its not been gracious retirement, but at least he has had the balls to say
he's had enough. Thats what it comes down to. Its only a job after all.

 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by Dalla » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Quote:

>I don't remember Senna, Prost, MS, JV, Piquet or any other former
>World Champion giving up the way Hill has.   Certainly, other former
>champions have had poor results, and had to contend with unfavorable
>rules etc, but conducted themselves with determination and class.
>IMO, Hill has not.   Reason 2.

I remember Nigel Mansell "giving up" several times in the McLaren bathtub of
1994. Although he did win *that* race in Aussie the same year...

D.

 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by Tim Cunning » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Close, he gave up in the bath tub in the following year, 1995. 1994 he won
his last race in *that race*
 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by Zonk » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Quote:

>> First of all, I will come clean and state I am not a Hill supporter.
>> And in general, I do not respect him.  However, I will not go on a
>> illogical rant of why DH is the world worst driver etc....Simply
>> because he is not a bad driver.  DH is a good driver who time has
>> passed.

>Er...how come he posted the 2nd quickest qualifying time on Thursday??

Qualifying time on thursday? Well, not since Monaco 1995, then?

Damon Hill was 4th in that session.

Z.

Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by Mike Whoole » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00



Quote:

> Although Hill *may* not have performed to everyones' expectations,
including
> his own, the fact that Jordan have been unable to supply two cars of equal
> reliability during practise and qualifying (and races) should also be
taken
> into account.

Rumour has it, that in a bid to improve the professionalism of Damon's
mechanics, the keystone cops will prepare his car for the Silverstone
race...

Quote:
> How has Hill *not* conducted himself with class?  All of the rubbish of
> 'will he won't he' can be attributed to the so called professional
> 'journalists' who, because neither Hill nor Jordan would talk to them
> decided to make up the 'facts' to fit their stories.  Not an unusual
> occurrence.  Hill's in-the-heat-of-the-moment comments about "that *may*
> have been my last GP" was converted without any further evidence to "Hill
> has run his last race" presented as fact when it wasn't.  The lack of
class
> has been shown by the world's news organisations and motoring press,
> including sadly the magazine Autosport, who have resorted to
sensationalism
> in place of truth to sell magazines.  All along, both Hill and EJ have
shown
> true class.

I agree, though I can't help but get the feeling Damon might yet continue
on if the car (i.e. his car) is competitive in Silverstone.

Quote:
> >While I do feel DH was "given" a World Championship is a very ***
> >car, that is illrelevant.  Just like it is illrelevant to argue about
> >MS titles.    The fact is DH is a champion.  The record book show it.

> ALL world champions have been so driving the *** cars of their
> respective seasons.  There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

I'm a little surprised people belittle Damon's championship so much because
he had such a good car, yet say nothing about Villeneuve '97 or Hakinnen
'98.

Quote:
> >If Damon says he dislikes the
> >grooved tires and that is part of the reason for his lack of
> >performance, it shows how limited his driving skills really are.  All
> >other drivers have to contend with the same rules.

> Not at all.  It just shows, as I said before, that his awareness of
> self-preservation is greater.  The fact that he might *refuse* to drive on
> the *variable* limit of the tyres is not evidence that he is incapable of
> doing so.

I don't know how much can be read into the tyres. Last year, the situation
was similar, yet Damon - at year end- was driving like a man possessed.
His fighting for (and taking) 4th place at Suzuka at the last corner
of the season really gave me hope for this year. But - even allowing
for the car problems - he hasn't performed. One extra groove
may make a difference, but can it really explain how the driver
who out-qualified Schuey at his favourite track last year now is struggling
in midfield?

Quote:
> >Most of the
> >drivers are not as fortunate as DH to be in a car as capable as a
> >Jordan.   Yet, this season, a significant number of drivers in far
> >less capable cars have out performed DH.    Reason 4

> Most of the drivers are indeed in cars as capable as the Jordan.  The gap
> from pole to say, 16th on the grid at every race proves that, when
compared
> to races say two or three years ago.

The gap may have narrowed, but it's still there. That's why its McLaren,
ahead of Ferrari, ahead of Stewart/Jordan etc etc.

Quote:

> >DH fans take your blinders off.   Damon is a very good driver, but not
> >in the driving class of Senna, Prost, MS and the few others.  He WAS
> >worthy of his time in F1.   But, sadly his time has passed.   He has
> >no one to blame but himself.

> Take your own blinkers off!  Both Senna and Prost accepted Hill's
> qualities - and he beat Prost on a number of occasions in his first real
> year in F1.  *IF* his time is past, it is *only* because of the rules as
> they stand.  It is a sign of his class that he is prepared to prematurely
> end his career rather than risk his life needlessly when he can't see the
> point.

As above, I believe the tyres are a factor, but not the whole story. If the
grooved tyres were such a problem, then surely he would have left last
year when they were introduced and the cars narrowed, instead of this
year when just one extra groove was added?

Quote:
> >I hope he does get the send off he deserves, at Silverstone.  He is
> >one of the select few people, in one of the world's select sports to
> >have earned his title of World Champion.   He certainly has earned it.

> Me too.  I also hope that he finishes the season.

A win in Silverstone. Wouldn't that be something... Looking at the
alternatives, I wish he'd stay too.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ferrari -> Tifosi... Jordan -> Letsgosee

 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by Ferrari Fanat » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:54:43 +0100, "Stevep"

Quote:


>>Geez, If the Tifosi are accused of having "Red Vision", then I don't
>>know what you would call most of the Hill fans....  A lot of the post
>>related to DH range from sad to really being out of touch with
>>reality.

>Woooo, pot calling the kettle RED or what? ;-)

>>First of all, I will come clean and state I am not a Hill supporter.

>With a sig like that, I'm really surprised! ;-)

>>And in general, I do not respect him.  However, I will not go on a
>>illogical rant of why DH is the world worst driver etc....Simply
>>because he is not a bad driver.  DH is a good driver who time has
>>passed.

>>However,  I will state a few reasons why I do not support/respect him.

>>Hill is supposed to be a professional racing driver.  Period.  As a
>>professional, he signed a contract with Jordan to give his all to the
>>team for the duration of his contract.   He is being paid millions to
>>be "motivated."   If Hill is not motivated, he owes some money back to
>>Jordan.   Reason 1.

>He receives a retainer for driving for Jordan.  I don't think you'll find
>any clause relating to commitment, dedication, or 'giving his all' in *any*
>drivers' contract...  Even if your supposition was correct, it would be a
>private matter between the team and Hill.

>Although Hill *may* not have performed to everyones' expectations, including
>his own, the fact that Jordan have been unable to supply two cars of equal
>reliability during practise and qualifying (and races) should also be taken
>into account.

>>I don't remember Senna, Prost, MS, JV, Piquet or any other former
>>World Champion giving up the way Hill has.

>Nigel Mansell?  Niki Lauda?  Jackie Stewart?  There are more...

After hitting the post button, with a bit of deliberation, I should
have re-written this phase.  You are right, especially with Mansel.  I
admired his racecraft, but we was whiner when the car was not great.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>>Certainly, other former
>>champions have had poor results, and had to contend with unfavorable
>>rules etc, but conducted themselves with determination and class.
>>IMO, Hill has not.   Reason 2.

>How has Hill *not* conducted himself with class?  All of the rubbish of
>'will he won't he' can be attributed to the so called professional
>'journalists' who, because neither Hill nor Jordan would talk to them
>decided to make up the 'facts' to fit their stories.  Not an unusual
>occurrence.  Hill's in-the-heat-of-the-moment comments about "that *may*
>have been my last GP" was converted without any further evidence to "Hill
>has run his last race" presented as fact when it wasn't.  The lack of class
>has been shown by the world's news organisations and motoring press,
>including sadly the magazine Autosport, who have resorted to sensationalism
>in place of truth to sell magazines.  All along, both Hill and EJ have shown
>true class.

That is very true....you made a very valid point.   Of course the
press will hunt stories like these and write a bunch of non-sense
inflating the situation beyond what it is.   However, the one comment
that did bother me from Hill is that statement about the decision
being his and he would make it not for the fans, team etc.  but for
himself.   Well, I thought that was a bit tactless, see reason #1.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>>Jordan has given Hill the best car they could afford.  HHF has shown
>>the car is very good.   Hill has not used the car anywhere near it's
>>potential.  (Reason 3)

>Hill would probably agree with you.  However, in mitigation, for a driver to
>commit himself totally to driving a car on the edge, he *must* have total
>faith in that car and it's preparation, *including* the regulations to which
>it is built (ie tyres).  Hill does *not* have faith in the tyres (a
>generally accepted view among *all* the drivers), indeed it is widely
>accepted among the drivers that the tyres are dangerous, due to the fact
>that the difference between 'on the limit' and 'over the limit' is instant,
>and not tactile in any way, added to which the decreased tread area and
>harder *** mean that when control is lost the tyres do nothing to inhibit
>the speed of the car.  Nor can the cars be 'got back' by driving (MS in the
>wall in Canada being a good example).

Agreed...but it's a matter of perception that other drives do not seem
to have trouble making.  Actually, to be honest, I think the grooved
tires probably have hurt MS more then anyone else.  MS uses the
contact patch of the tyre very differently then most drivers (See F1
Racing for that article very interesting)

Quote:

>>As for Jordan, being nearly equal with Ferrari and McLaren as a team
>>(as a few has stated), that is a Joke!  Jordan annual racing budget is
>>no where near the budget of Ferrari or McLaren, nor do they have the
>>personnel or facilities.  I would not expect Hill or HHF to be on the
>>podium, unless a Ferrari or McLaren failed.

>Agreed.

>>While I do feel DH was "given" a World Championship is a very ***
>>car, that is illrelevant.  Just like it is illrelevant to argue about
>>MS titles.    The fact is DH is a champion.  The record book show it.

>ALL world champions have been so driving the *** cars of their
>respective seasons.  There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

I disagree with you here.   Prost won his 1986 WC  because of a lack
of team orders at Williams.  Mansel and Piquet split points earning 70
and 69 respectively to Prost's 72.  

As painful as it is to state, I would also add 1998,  MS if not for
his own errors he could have won the championship.    Certainly, 1999
will not be won by a dominate car.  If MS doesn't win the driver's
championship, France and Canada will be certainly be looked as
opportunities lost, opposed to McLaren's ***.

There are other example as well, but I am too lazy to look up the
points stats.

Quote:

>>However, part of being a champion is showing what you can do in a car
>>that is not the *** car in the field.  A champion finds a way to
>>win or to get the most out of the car.    Damon has not be able to
>>consistently demonstrate that trait.

>That is a very debatable point.  Personally, I think that Hill *has* been
>able to demonstrate his consistent speed in a car which is not one of the
>top three - at Arrows and Jordan last year.  That is something that for
>example Michael Schumacher has *not* been able to demonstrate.

Hmm....do you really think that.....I really don't think too many will
agree with your statement.   MS has shown very consistent speed since
his entry into F1.   MS and associates have done wonders for Ferrari
in developing the car since he has been there.   He won 3 times in
1996 in a dog car, defeating both Hill and JV in the dominate
Williams-Renault.  

Quote:
> All of the
>teams he has driven for have shown positive advancement as a direct result
>of his input.  They *all* say so!  Hill's ability to turn in consistent
>laptimes lap after lap are what makes him so special as a development
>driver, together with his technical feedback.

I agree with you that Hill is a very fine development driver.  Another
reason, that puzzles me why he has not been more successful.  DH
certainly has talent, no arguing about that.

Quote:

>What Hill *has* demonstrated this year in the Jordan is that, unlike HHF and
>many other drivers, he is *not* prepared to put his life at risk regarding
>the limit of the tyres in the same way that the others are.  That does not
>make him a lesser driver, it does show that perhaps his self-preservation
>instinct is stronger.  HHF's crash in Canada and the closeness of calamity
>as a result made Hill think more about the danger and increased his hatred
>of the tyres, which have singularly failed to acheive Moseley's objectives
>and in fact caused more danger for the drivers.

I think your statement has a little boula boula in it.   First, Racing
is dangerous period, regardless of what rules are in play.  Regardless
of the rule, F1 drivers (that goes for CART) put their lives on the
line anytime they strap on a helmet and blast around a circuit.  I
would say self preservation is more of a function of age then anything
else.  If so, then DH needs to go if that how he feels, but that issue
should have been sorted out at the beginning of the season, not in the
middle.

Second, HHF crash at Canada was due to a brake failure not tyres.  No
logic in comparing apples to oranages...or in this case brakes to
tyres.  

Third, As for all the accidents with JV, DH, and MS in Canada, they
were do to driver error, not tyres.   Look at the tape.  All three
were way out in the gray marbles, old style sticky slicks could not
have save them.

Quote:

>>If Damon says he dislikes the
>>grooved tires and that is part of the reason for his lack of
>>performance, it shows how limited his driving skills really are.  All
>>other drivers have to contend with the same rules.

>Not at all.  It just shows, as I said before, that his awareness of
>self-preservation is greater.  The fact that he might *refuse* to drive on
>the *variable* limit of the tyres is not evidence that he is incapable of
>doing so.

Then he is not doing what he is being paid to do.  DH has too much
experience not to have figure out in pre-season whether or not the
tyres were going to be a problem for him.  If he honestly felt they
were unsafe etc., he should have resigned his drive and stepped aside.

Quote:

>>Most of the
>>drivers are not as fortunate as DH to be in a car as capable as a
>>Jordan.   Yet, this season, a significant number of drivers in far
>>less capable cars have out performed DH.    Reason 4

>Most of the drivers are indeed in cars as capable as the Jordan.  The gap
>from pole to say, 16th on the grid at every race proves that, when compared
>to races say two or three years ago.

I disagree with you here.   The point standing do not seem to support
...

read more »

 
 
 

HILL, HILL, HILL....Stop the Madness.....

Post by Andrew Moose » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Quote:
>I don't remember Senna, Prost, MS, JV, Piquet or any other former
>World Champion giving up the way Hill has.

Prost referred to his Ferrari as a "truck" and was quickly released from his
contract.  He spent the next year performing commentary duties for French F1
coverage.  Odd, considering such an endearing comment from a world champion?

Andrew

Quote:

>Hill is supposed to be a professional racing driver.  Period.  As a
>professional, he signed a contract with Jordan to give his all to the
>team for the duration of his contract

>Jordan has given Hill the best car they could afford.  HHF has shown
>the car is very good.   Hill has not used the car anywhere near it's
>potential.  (Reason 3)

snip

>However, part of being a champion is showing what you can do in a car
>that is not the *** car in the field.  A champion finds a way to
>win or to get the most out of the car