Seb/Webbo controversy

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Bobste » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 01:19:11



Quote:
> First of all Vettel is not Senna. Senna never apolopysed for anything, even when he screwed up big time.

Senna was actually happy to play the team orders game. At Japan in
1991, with the championship still not settled, Berger was expected to
give up his race for Senna. Once Mansell was out of the race the team
decided that Senna should give the win to Berger as a gesture of
gratitude for having been a team player. Senna did - though he made a
bit of a show of it.

But I'm not sure what your point is here. Is Vettel better or worse
than Senna for apologising?

Quote:

> Also, I understood Vettel's sorry words as complete hipocrisy. I don't believe he regrets anything. He's just trying to soften things a bit.

> Also, a word for the ones who still find space to trash Webber: Webber may not be as good as Vettel, but he deserves as much respect as anyone else. Vettel may be one of the top drivers of the moment (and maybe of all times), but he's not above basic ethics. He has acted like a backstabber, and I see no room for any excuses.

> He may disagree with team orders, but if he did, he should have told Horner before the race: "I don't agree with team orders. I'm attacking Webber if I find myself in position to do so, and I expect him to do the same".

Well, it occurs to me that it would be easy to sit in the motor home
and agree to do the decent thing for the team blah blah and then find
that when push comes to shove and there's a race win at stake that
it's hard to resist the temptation. Which is basically what happened
with Reutemann in 1981. He'd agreed that Jones should have priority,
but when he had a race win dangling in front of him he decided that he
was going to take it.

Quote:

> But he didn't do that. He agreed with team orders, and he would probably be complaining if the oposite had happened.

> I also don't remember any occasion where Webber has disrespected team orders. I sincerely doubt that he could keep his place in the team, if he ever did that.

In 2011 the RBRs were running 2-3 at Silverstone after the final pit
stops - Vettel ahead of Webber. Horner told Webber not to attempt to
pass Seb. What did Webber do? He tried to take 2nd from Seb. He didn't
take the place - but that's not the point, his intent was clearly to
disregard the team orders and try to take position and points from his
team mate.
 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Yousuf Kha » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 01:45:21


Quote:
> I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he followed
> those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and does some
> apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just for the
> show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is saying. He did
> what he thought OK on the track. And he would do it again, if
> opportunity occurs.
> Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking
> *"why the hell not?"*.

Yes, Webber also did similar things to Vettel in the past, and Vettel
did similar things to Webber in the past. The only difference this time
is why are they starting so early in the season? Other times it was when
championships were at stake around the end of the season.

It's interesting that the same scenario was playing out right behind
them within the Mercedes team, and the drivers played nice (well,
grudgingly). Rosberg stayed behind Hamilton, but did make Hamilton's
life difficult during the race, deliberately. And then even told the
team over the radio, "You better remember this!"

        Yousuf Khan

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Bigbir » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 02:00:51

Quote:


> > Like I say the fact you felt the need, and went to some length, to
> > explain on Vettels behalf looks like an attempt to justify his
> > actions.

> Well, I didn't felt the need, I just wanted to share my view of the
> most exposed and discussed moment of the race. And because Seb's move
> got me thinking more than i.e. the stupid FA/Ferrari decision to stay
> out with a broken wing. This I chalked up as "mistake" and forgot
> instantly. It's just more intriguing and, like many others, I was
> trying to rationalize it.

> > Even leaning on some somewhat doubtful assertions regarding Webbers
> > actions in Brasil which you haven't supported.

> Doubtful assertions?! Even Horner confirmed that the grudge between
> his two drivers goes back to Brazil and Webbo's actions there. If you
> don't remember or choose not believe me, Horner should be the one you
> should listen to. For my part, I believe he knows what he is talking
> about.

The grudge goes back way beyond Brazil last year I believe. However you
claim he ignored team orders in Brazil (and use that to justify his
actions regardless that you claim otherwise); can you elaborate. I
don't recall the event during the race.

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Zeppo Mar » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 17:49:30


Quote:

> The grudge goes back way beyond Brazil last year I believe. However you
> claim he ignored team orders in Brazil (and use that to justify his
> actions regardless that you claim otherwise); can you elaborate. I
> don't recall the event during the race.

Well, Webbo was told by the team not to race Seb and he did (on the
start, on the restart after the safety car. etc.). Although I don't
remember any radio orders to Webbo during the race, (not only) Horner
insisted before the race that Webbo should and will support Seb in his
WDC efforts. Webbo refused this flat out and was very vocal about that
in some interviews. He drove accordingly in the race.
 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by j.. » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 17:51:10

Em ter?a-feira, 26 de mar?o de 2013 16h19min11s UTC, Bobster escreveu:

It's the first time I read someone telling that Senna was happy for playing team orders... In a way you're right, because most of the times he was the one who took the benefict from team orders. You speak about Japan 2001, but what was the thing with team orders then? Berger was told to speed up while Senna was holding Mansell. After Mansell's crash Senna took the lead, and then decided to give the victory to Berger... Don't see much of team orders here... A situation I remember well is Imola 1989, where team orders were issued, everybody agreed, and Senna broke the agreement... Didn't seem happy to follow team orders then...
When I say Vettel is not Senna, I mean I don't see the point in trying to compare situations. What Senna did stays with Senna, what Vettel does stays with Vettel.
Also, I don't see why sitting in the***pit would prevent one from keeping up with yhis word on a team agreement. I could agree the attempt to pass Webber as soon as he pit out could be caused by adrenaline, but afterwards he had a lot of "multi 21"s from the team and a all lap to come to himself... And he probably came to himself. The problem maybe that that backstabbing attitude is "himself"... Unfortunately, there are people like that throughout the World... Maybe Vettel is one of them...
Like I said, I don't remember Webber ever disrespecting team orders or even coming close to it. Also, if it happened, I find it strange Vettel (the guy who even complainted about DRS in an ocasion he was overtook) could forget such a thing.

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Bobste » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 21:01:15


<snip>

Quote:
> It's the first time I read someone telling that Senna was happy for playing team orders... In a way you're right, because most of the times he was the one who took the benefict from team orders.

I recall a quote by Berger to the effect that any team who had a
driver of Senna's class would be stupid to not prioritise him in every
way they could because he was clearly going to be their best chance of
winning.

Quote:
> You speak about Japan 2001, but what was the thing with team orders then?

*1991* there was no regulation pertaining to team orders then. Teams
could and did issue them.

At Suzuka in 1991 Senna didn't need the win once Mansell was out and
the team told him to gift Berger the win as Berger had helped Senna at
other points in the season.

<snip>

Quote:
> Also, I don't see why sitting in the***pit would prevent one from keeping up with yhis word on a team agreement.

Well I've never had a grand prix victory there for the taking, but I
think that often sports presents people with a large amount of
temptation. So it might be OK when you're talking about team orders in
principal away from the track, but when you're in the car, pumped up
and ***y hell you can get a win here then I think that team orders
and your team mate's record might become less of a concern for you.

The other sport I follow is cricket, and you see it there. Everybody
will say, away from the game, that, yes, you should walk if you know
you're out. But you're in the 90s and the century is looming on the
horizon and you get a faint edge... suddenly doing the decent and
sporting thing is a lot harder.

Quote:
> I could agree the attempt to pass Webber as soon as he pit out could be caused by adrenaline, but afterwards he had a lot of "multi 21"s from the team and a all lap to come to himself... And he probably came to himself. The problem maybe that that backstabbing attitude is "himself"... Unfortunately, there are people like that throughout the World... Maybe Vettel is one of them...

Well I shy away from words like "backstabbing", but certainly he's
ruthless and competitive and if you think he's the only one in the
current F1 field then think again.

Quote:
> Like I said, I don't remember Webber ever disrespecting team orders or even coming close to it.

I've given you the example, and elsewhere on RASF1 I've posted part of
the press conference which has Webber saying quite bluntly that he got
multiple calls from the team and ignored them.

Quote:
> Also, if it happened, I find it strange Vettel (the guy who even complainted about DRS in an ocasion he was overtook) could forget such a thing.

Who said he forgot it? I'd bet it was very much a factor. He knew what
Webber would do if he got the call because Webber had already shown
what he would do, then told the media in the press conference that he
was not OK with team orders especially if there was a chance of a
win.

I'm not asking you or anybody else to approve of what Vettel did. I AM
pointing out that Webber is just as ruthless or backstabbing or
duplicitous or whatever other words you care to use and that he is not
well placed to complain.

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Johnny B. Goo » Fri, 29 Mar 2013 05:04:23

Quarta-feira, 27 de Mar?o de 2013 12:01:15 UTC, Bobster escreveu:

Quote:

> <snip>

> > It's the first time I read someone telling that Senna was happy for playing team orders... In a way you're right, because most of the times he was the one who took the benefict from team orders.

> I recall a quote by Berger to the effect that any team who had a

> driver of Senna's class would be stupid to not prioritise him in every

> way they could because he was clearly going to be their best chance of

> winning.

I don't remember Berger ever saying such a thing, but if he did... well, no doubt he was the best team-mate to Senna.

Quote:
> > You speak about Japan 2001, but what was the thing with team orders then?

> *1991* there was no regulation pertaining to team orders then. Teams

> could and did issue them.

1991, sorry for the mistake... There were no regulations regarding team orders then, and there are no real regulations NOW... Let's not be naive... Teams give as much orders as they want... But getting to the point, I continue to fail in seeing why is Japan 1991 being brought to this discussion Webber-Vettel... Therefore my question.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> At Suzuka in 1991 Senna didn't need the win once Mansell was out and

> the team told him to gift Berger the win as Berger had helped Senna at

> other points in the season.

> <snip>

> > Also, I don't see why sitting in the***pit would prevent one from keeping up with yhis word on a team agreement.

> Well I've never had a grand prix victory there for the taking, but I

> think that often sports presents people with a large amount of

> temptation. So it might be OK when you're talking about team orders in

> principal away from the track, but when you're in the car, pumped up

> and ***y hell you can get a win here then I think that team orders

> and your team mate's record might become less of a concern for you.

> The other sport I follow is cricket, and you see it there. Everybody

> will say, away from the game, that, yes, you should walk if you know

> you're out. But you're in the 90s and the century is looming on the

> horizon and you get a faint edge... suddenly doing the decent and

> sporting thing is a lot harder.

Like I said, I understand such a decision being taken with a rush of adrenaline; I don't understand it after Vettel being called to reason several times.

Quote:

> > I could agree the attempt to pass Webber as soon as he pit out could be caused by adrenaline, but afterwards he had a lot of "multi 21"s from the team and a all lap to come to himself... And he probably came to himself. The problem maybe that that backstabbing attitude is "himself"... Unfortunately, there are people like that throughout the World... Maybe Vettel is one of them...

> Well I shy away from words like "backstabbing", but certainly he's

> ruthless and competitive and if you think he's the only one in the

> current F1 field then think again.

Being competitive has nothing to do with being a backstabber, IMHO. Again, I understand how being competitive could lead to a momentary decision of attacking Webber right when he was leaving the pits. Keep on doing it, has nothing to do with being competitive. It has more to do with being a backstabber and feeling untouchable in team.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> > Like I said, I don't remember Webber ever disrespecting team orders or even coming close to it.

> I've given you the example, and elsewhere on RASF1 I've posted part of

> the press conference which has Webber saying quite bluntly that he got

> multiple calls from the team and ignored them.

> > Also, if it happened, I find it strange Vettel (the guy who even complainted about DRS in an ocasion he was overtook) could forget such a thing.

> Who said he forgot it? I'd bet it was very much a factor. He knew what

> Webber would do if he got the call because Webber had already shown

> what he would do, then told the media in the press conference that he

> was not OK with team orders especially if there was a chance of a

> win.

> I'm not asking you or anybody else to approve of what Vettel did. I AM

> pointing out that Webber is just as ruthless or backstabbing or

> duplicitous or whatever other words you care to use and that he is not

> well placed to complain.

Again, it fails me to understand why then this kind of defence to Vettel. If Webber really pulled a move like the one you are saying he did, whouldn't it be easier to say: "No one keeps up with team orders in RBR. Remember UK. Vettel shouldn't trust Webber". Why all the apologyes, the funeral face in the podium, and all the efford trying to prove the move was just a product of a competitive spirit? Doesn't make sense...
Anyway, I would like to end this by saying I'm sorry for answering to your post. I assumed you posted stuff so it could be discussed. I never assumed it could be understood as a demand for any kind of approval of any sort.
 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Bobste » Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:45:29


Quote:
> Quarta-feira, 27 de Mar?o de 2013 12:01:15 UTC, Bobster escreveu:


> > <snip>

> > > It's the first time I read someone telling that Senna was happy for playing team orders... In a way you're right, because most of the times he was the one who took the benefict from team orders.

> > I recall a quote by Berger to the effect that any team who had a

> > driver of Senna's class would be stupid to not prioritise him in every

> > way they could because he was clearly going to be their best chance of

> > winning.

> I don't remember Berger ever saying such a thing, but if he did... well, no doubt he was the best team-mate to Senna.

> > > You speak about Japan 2001, but what was the thing with team orders then?

> > *1991* there was no regulation pertaining to team orders then. Teams

> > could and did issue them.

> 1991, sorry for the mistake... There were no regulations regarding team orders then, and there are no real regulations NOW... Let's not be naive... Teams give as much orders as they want... But getting to the point, I continue to fail in seeing why is Japan 1991 being brought to this discussion Webber-Vettel... Therefore my question.

Your question, as far as I can see, was "what was the thing with team
orders then?" We've discussed that.

Which is more than was done for the question that I asked: Whether you
thought Vettel was doing better or worse than Senna by apologising.
<snip>

Quote:
> Like I said, I understand such a decision being taken with a rush of adrenaline; I don't understand it after Vettel being called to reason several times.

There's often a gap between what we know, in theory, to be the thing
to do, and what we actually do. People know they shouldn't have
another drink, but they do. We've all been told we shouldn't speed -
but some of us still do. Sport, and especially top level sport, puts
temptation in one's path.
Quote:

> > > I could agree the attempt to pass Webber as soon as he pit out could be caused by adrenaline, but afterwards he had a lot of "multi 21"s from the team and a all lap to come to himself... And he probably came to himself. The problem maybe that that backstabbing attitude is "himself"... Unfortunately, there are people like that throughout the World... Maybe Vettel is one of them...

> > Well I shy away from words like "backstabbing", but certainly he's

> > ruthless and competitive and if you think he's the only one in the

> > current F1 field then think again.

> Being competitive has nothing to do with being a backstabber, IMHO.

As I said, I'd shy away from that word - or apply it a little less
selectively. I'd like to think that one can be competitive and
honourable, and I think that one can.

Quote:
> Again, I understand how being competitive could lead to a momentary decision of attacking Webber right when he was leaving the pits. Keep on doing it, has nothing to do with being competitive. It has more to do with being a backstabber and feeling untouchable in team.

Well, it seems your mind is made up.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> > > Like I said, I don't remember Webber ever disrespecting team orders or even coming close to it.

> > I've given you the example, and elsewhere on RASF1 I've posted part of

> > the press conference which has Webber saying quite bluntly that he got

> > multiple calls from the team and ignored them.

> > > Also, if it happened, I find it strange Vettel (the guy who even complainted about DRS in an ocasion he was overtook) could forget such a thing.

> > Who said he forgot it? I'd bet it was very much a factor. He knew what

> > Webber would do if he got the call because Webber had already shown

> > what he would do, then told the media in the press conference that he

> > was not OK with team orders especially if there was a chance of a

> > win.

> > I'm not asking you or anybody else to approve of what Vettel did. I AM

> > pointing out that Webber is just as ruthless or backstabbing or

> > duplicitous or whatever other words you care to use and that he is not

> > well placed to complain.

> Again, it fails me to understand why then this kind of defence to Vettel. If Webber really pulled a move like the one you are saying he did, whouldn't it be easier to say: "No one keeps up with team orders in RBR. Remember UK. Vettel shouldn't trust Webber". Why all the apologyes, the funeral face in the podium, and all the efford trying to prove the move was just a product of a competitive spirit? Doesn't make sense...

Maybe it's regret. And regret is always retrospective. One does
something and then one thinks that one shouldn't have done it. But
here is where I think you need to clarify your thinking. Is Vettel
better or worse than Senna for showing some contrition?

Come to think of it, is he better or worse than another driver who,
more recently, told the press at the post race conference that he is
not OK with team orders and that he chose to ignore four or five calls
from the team?

Quote:
> Anyway, I would like to end this by saying I'm sorry for answering to your post. I assumed you posted stuff so it could be discussed. I never assumed it could be understood as a demand for any kind of approval of any sort.

I didn't ask for approval. You might construe my posts as such, but
then you've repeatedly ignored an example that I've given you of
Webber disregarding team orders. It takes two to have a discussion.
 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by geof » Fri, 29 Mar 2013 17:17:09


Quote:
> Maybe it's regret. And regret is always retrospective. One does
> something and then one thinks that one shouldn't have done it.

Not always retro -   "I regret what I am about to do to you....".

geoff

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Bobste » Fri, 29 Mar 2013 17:57:44


Quote:


> > Maybe it's regret. And regret is always retrospective. One does
> > something and then one thinks that one shouldn't have done it.

> Not always retro - ? "I regret what I am about to do to you....".

> geoff

I never believed that. It's right up there with "this is going to hurt
me more than it hurts you." Ever tried asking them if they want to
swap places?
 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by j.. » Sat, 30 Mar 2013 00:12:38

Em quinta-feira, 28 de mar?o de 2013 03h45min29s UTC, Bobster escreveu:

I'm just answering to this bit... There must be some kind of misunderstanding. Someone (you? someone else?) brought Senna to this discussion, and in my opinion, there is no point in having the memory of Senna's actions here. Imola 1989, Japan 1991, or other GPs. That's why I asked "what was the thing with team orders then?". I may see a resemblance between Imola 1989 and this Webber-Vettel affair, but Japan 1991?... So what if there were team orders to let Berger win in Japan 1991?

About the question you so desperately want my answer, which one is worst, Senna or Vettel (assuming you are refering to Imola 1989...)
Well, that's not really important, because like I said Senna is Senna, and Vettel is Vettel. Senna's attitude was bad because he backstabbed his team-mate, and even got worst because he didn't apologyse. Vettel's attitude was bad and got even worst, because I didn't feel his apologies were sincere.
So, choosing between an arrogant backstabber and a hipocritical backstabber... I would give them a tie!

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Bobste » Sat, 30 Mar 2013 13:13:40


<snip>

Quote:
> I'm just answering to this bit... There must be some kind of misunderstanding. Someone (you? someone else?) brought Senna to this discussion, and in my opinion, there is no point in having the memory of Senna's actions here.

I think you've lost track of who said what. The software you're using
- which doesn't seem to handle quoting and indenting very well - is
probably not helping.

So:
1) Mower Man posted "Senna, of course would not have given an excuse,
nor would one have been expected from him."
2) You replied with  "First of all Vettel is not Senna. Senna never
apolopysed for anything, even when he screwed up big time. Also, I
understood Vettel's sorry words as complete hipocrisy. I don't believe
he regrets anything. He's just trying to soften things a bit."

So there's Senna and his actions in the discussion.

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by ~misfit » Sun, 31 Mar 2013 19:43:29


Quote:

>> I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he
>> followed those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and
>> does some apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is
>> just for the show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what he
>> is saying. He did what he thought OK on the track. And he would do
>> it again, if opportunity occurs.
>> Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking
>> *"why the hell not?"*.

> Yes, Webber also did similar things to Vettel in the past, and Vettel
> did similar things to Webber in the past. The only difference this
> time is why are they starting so early in the season? Other times it
> was when championships were at stake around the end of the season.

> It's interesting that the same scenario was playing out right behind
> them within the Mercedes team, and the drivers played nice (well,
> grudgingly). Rosberg stayed behind Hamilton, but did make Hamilton's
> life difficult during the race, deliberately. And then even told the
> team over the radio, "You better remember this!"

He said "Remember this one", not demanding like you make it out to be (with
an exclaimation mark).
--
/Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by j.. » Tue, 02 Apr 2013 17:59:25

Em sexta-feira, 29 de mar?o de 2013 04h13min40s UTC, Bobster escreveu:

I got that.. But you were the one who spoke about Japan 1991, weren't you? Once again, what does Senna got to do with Vettel, and what does Japan 1991 to do with Malasya 2013? Makes no sense, both comparissons.

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Bobste » Tue, 02 Apr 2013 21:40:55


Quote:
> Em sexta-feira, 29 de mar?o de 2013 04h13min40s UTC, Bobster escreveu:


> I got that.. But you were the one who spoke about Japan 1991, weren't you?

Yes.

Quote:
> Once again, what does Senna got to do with Vettel, and what does Japan 1991 to do with Malasya 2013? Makes no sense, both comparissons.

It was a little twist the conversation took. The discussion was about
team orders, then Senna got pulled into things and I remembered him
and team orders.