> Quarta-feira, 27 de Mar?o de 2013 12:01:15 UTC, Bobster escreveu:
> > <snip>
> > > It's the first time I read someone telling that Senna was happy for playing team orders... In a way you're right, because most of the times he was the one who took the benefict from team orders.
> > I recall a quote by Berger to the effect that any team who had a
> > driver of Senna's class would be stupid to not prioritise him in every
> > way they could because he was clearly going to be their best chance of
> > winning.
> I don't remember Berger ever saying such a thing, but if he did... well, no doubt he was the best team-mate to Senna.
> > > You speak about Japan 2001, but what was the thing with team orders then?
> > *1991* there was no regulation pertaining to team orders then. Teams
> > could and did issue them.
> 1991, sorry for the mistake... There were no regulations regarding team orders then, and there are no real regulations NOW... Let's not be naive... Teams give as much orders as they want... But getting to the point, I continue to fail in seeing why is Japan 1991 being brought to this discussion Webber-Vettel... Therefore my question.
Your question, as far as I can see, was "what was the thing with team
orders then?" We've discussed that.
Which is more than was done for the question that I asked: Whether you
thought Vettel was doing better or worse than Senna by apologising.
> Like I said, I understand such a decision being taken with a rush of adrenaline; I don't understand it after Vettel being called to reason several times.
There's often a gap between what we know, in theory, to be the thing
to do, and what we actually do. People know they shouldn't have
another drink, but they do. We've all been told we shouldn't speed -
but some of us still do. Sport, and especially top level sport, puts
temptation in one's path.
> > > I could agree the attempt to pass Webber as soon as he pit out could be caused by adrenaline, but afterwards he had a lot of "multi 21"s from the team and a all lap to come to himself... And he probably came to himself. The problem maybe that that backstabbing attitude is "himself"... Unfortunately, there are people like that throughout the World... Maybe Vettel is one of them...
> > Well I shy away from words like "backstabbing", but certainly he's
> > ruthless and competitive and if you think he's the only one in the
> > current F1 field then think again.
> Being competitive has nothing to do with being a backstabber, IMHO.
As I said, I'd shy away from that word - or apply it a little less
selectively. I'd like to think that one can be competitive and
honourable, and I think that one can.
> Again, I understand how being competitive could lead to a momentary decision of attacking Webber right when he was leaving the pits. Keep on doing it, has nothing to do with being competitive. It has more to do with being a backstabber and feeling untouchable in team.
Well, it seems your mind is made up.
> > > Like I said, I don't remember Webber ever disrespecting team orders or even coming close to it.
> > I've given you the example, and elsewhere on RASF1 I've posted part of
> > the press conference which has Webber saying quite bluntly that he got
> > multiple calls from the team and ignored them.
> > > Also, if it happened, I find it strange Vettel (the guy who even complainted about DRS in an ocasion he was overtook) could forget such a thing.
> > Who said he forgot it? I'd bet it was very much a factor. He knew what
> > Webber would do if he got the call because Webber had already shown
> > what he would do, then told the media in the press conference that he
> > was not OK with team orders especially if there was a chance of a
> > win.
> > I'm not asking you or anybody else to approve of what Vettel did. I AM
> > pointing out that Webber is just as ruthless or backstabbing or
> > duplicitous or whatever other words you care to use and that he is not
> > well placed to complain.
> Again, it fails me to understand why then this kind of defence to Vettel. If Webber really pulled a move like the one you are saying he did, whouldn't it be easier to say: "No one keeps up with team orders in RBR. Remember UK. Vettel shouldn't trust Webber". Why all the apologyes, the funeral face in the podium, and all the efford trying to prove the move was just a product of a competitive spirit? Doesn't make sense...
Maybe it's regret. And regret is always retrospective. One does
something and then one thinks that one shouldn't have done it. But
here is where I think you need to clarify your thinking. Is Vettel
better or worse than Senna for showing some contrition?
Come to think of it, is he better or worse than another driver who,
more recently, told the press at the post race conference that he is
not OK with team orders and that he chose to ignore four or five calls
from the team?
> Anyway, I would like to end this by saying I'm sorry for answering to your post. I assumed you posted stuff so it could be discussed. I never assumed it could be understood as a demand for any kind of approval of any sort.
I didn't ask for approval. You might construe my posts as such, but
then you've repeatedly ignored an example that I've given you of
Webber disregarding team orders. It takes two to have a discussion.