Seb/Webbo controversy

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Zeppo Mar » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 07:07:37


I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he followed
those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and does some
apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just for the
show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is saying. He did
what he thought OK on the track. And he would do it again, if
opportunity occurs.
Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking
*"why the hell not?"*.

In 2012 Webbo always went an extra mile to explain how his job is, first
and foremost, to drive races for himself.  And how it's *not* his job to
support Seb in his efforts to win another title. He did not accept team
orders and was very vocal about that back then. In the last race in
Brazil, where everyone sane has expected him to finally drop this
attitude, since he didn't have a chance to win WDC anyway, and help his
team mate - he still refused to play by the team orders. And was vocal
about it too. I still remember how hard he made Seb's life in that race,
he really lived up to his words: by times it looked like Ferrari is
having 3 cars on the track and two of those were doing all they can to
help Alonso. Sadly, one of those was in an RBR livery.

Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands
for once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it is
not to follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI 21?!".

Well, I would say "MULTI 21" went exactly there, where Webbo himself
sent "MULTI 12" a few times last year - Never Land. In my view, today
Seb decided it's a payback day for Webbo. Unfortunately for Webbo, Seb
used the same coins Webbo gave him the last season in abundance.

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Noj » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 07:54:15

Zeppo Marx wrote ...

Quote:

> I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he followed
> those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and does some
> apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just for the
> show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is saying. He did
> what he thought OK on the track. And he would do it again, if
> opportunity occurs.
> Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking
> *"why the hell not?"*.

> In 2012 Webbo always went an extra mile to explain how his job is, first
> and foremost, to drive races for himself.  And how it's *not* his job to
> support Seb in his efforts to win another title. He did not accept team
> orders and was very vocal about that back then. In the last race in
> Brazil, where everyone sane has expected him to finally drop this
> attitude, since he didn't have a chance to win WDC anyway, and help his
> team mate - he still refused to play by the team orders. And was vocal
> about it too. I still remember how hard he made Seb's life in that race,
> he really lived up to his words: by times it looked like Ferrari is
> having 3 cars on the track and two of those were doing all they can to
> help Alonso. Sadly, one of those was in an RBR livery.

> Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands
> for once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it is
> not to follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI 21?!".

> Well, I would say "MULTI 21" went exactly there, where Webbo himself
> sent "MULTI 12" a few times last year - Never Land. In my view, today
> Seb decided it's a payback day for Webbo. Unfortunately for Webbo, Seb
> used the same coins Webbo gave him the last season in abundance.

If Webber hadn't been following team orders for the last 3 seasons, he
would have been replaced. (By LH)

There will always be a difference between what's said in public and that
ordered in private.  Even now, DC and his manager Brundle are not
prepared to discuss the finer details of team orders DC had to follow at
McLaren. (I know this because Brundle bought it up on Sky today)

Bottom line - teams want as many points as they can get to earn dosh
from the Dwarf.  Who gets them is often secondary, unless it's Ferrari
who get loadsa dosh however their cars perform.

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Steve Thompso » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 08:11:25

Quote:

> Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands for
> once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it is not to
> follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI 21?!".

This is hardly the same thing. One is team orders, the other not.

-steve

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Zeppo Mar » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 08:35:35


Quote:
> If Webber hadn't been following team orders for the last 3 seasons, he
> would have been replaced. (By LH)

Well, I am not as sure there as you are. Even Horner said (today's post
race interview) that this is not a new situation between his 2 drivers.
"This happened before, this also happened other way around and this will
happen again". And he explicitly mentioned 2010 Turky race and Brazil
2012, where MW chose not to follow the team orders.
(Do you remember after race interviews where MW was claiming that he is
there to race and win and not to support Seb's efforts to win another
title. And his complete and utter lack of understanding why Seb was
upset. "Well, I can only say: sorry mate!")

Today, because the team order favored him, MW wanted to follow them and
was pretty upset because SV chose not to. This is kind of "eating his
own dog food": he knows now beyond any doubt,  that Seb is there to race
and win and not to support his efforts to win another race.

Anyways, this will not end here and today and I am really curious how
this all shebang develops.

Quote:

> There will always be a difference between what's said in public and that
> ordered in private.  Even now, DC and his manager Brundle are not
> prepared to discuss the finer details of team orders DC had to follow at
> McLaren. (I know this because Brundle bought it up on Sky today)

Yup, true.

Quote:
> Bottom line - teams want as many points as they can get to earn dosh
> from the Dwarf.  Who gets them is often secondary, unless it's Ferrari
> who get loadsa dosh however their cars perform.

Also true.  :)
 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by RzR » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 08:44:37


Quote:
> I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he followed
> those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and does some
> apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just for the
> show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is saying. He did
> what he thought OK on the track. And he would do it again, if
> opportunity occurs.
> Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking
> *"why the hell not?"*.

little *** pulled the fast one, i imagine he will have to give one
back to webber very soon...
 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Zeppo Mar » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 08:48:16


Quote:

>> Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands
>> for once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it is
>> not to follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI 21?!".

> This is hardly the same thing. One is team orders, the other not.

> -steve

Er, how so? In 2012 Brazil race MW was explicitly given the team order
*not* to attack SV. And he did. And he ended up in front of SV. Although
this could have cost SV the 2012 WDC title. We all know it didn't - but
it could have.

I am not saying Seb was right and Webbo was not. Or vice versa. Just
giving my opinion about what I think really happened. Seb chose not to
follow the team order like Webbo did at least a few times in the past.
No big deal - just a payday.

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by AC » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 08:56:51

Quote:

> I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he followed
> those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and does some
> apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just for the
> show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is saying. He did
> what he thought OK on the track. And he would do it again, if
> opportunity occurs.
> Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking
> *"why the hell not?"*.

> In 2012 Webbo always went an extra mile to explain how his job is, first
> and foremost, to drive races for himself.  And how it's *not* his job to
> support Seb in his efforts to win another title. He did not accept team
> orders and was very vocal about that back then. In the last race in
> Brazil, where everyone sane has expected him to finally drop this
> attitude, since he didn't have a chance to win WDC anyway, and help his
> team mate - he still refused to play by the team orders. And was vocal
> about it too. I still remember how hard he made Seb's life in that race,
> he really lived up to his words: by times it looked like Ferrari is
> having 3 cars on the track and two of those were doing all they can to
> help Alonso. Sadly, one of those was in an RBR livery.

> Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands
> for once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it is
> not to follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI 21?!".

> Well, I would say "MULTI 21" went exactly there, where Webbo himself
> sent "MULTI 12" a few times last year - Never Land. In my view, today
> Seb decided it's a payback day for Webbo. Unfortunately for Webbo, Seb
> used the same coins Webbo gave him the last season in abundance.

They can say what they like, what counts is what happens ont he track.
If there have been times when Webber has been given direct team orders
and completely ignored them, like Vettel did, then OK. But if that is
what going on, RBR need to basically abandon the idea of team orders.

--
AC

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Sir Ti » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 08:59:09

Quote:

> I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he followed
> those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and does some
> apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just for the show.
> I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is saying. He did what
> he thought OK on the track. And he would do it again, if opportunity occurs.
> Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking *"why the hell not?"*.

> In 2012 Webbo always went an extra mile to explain how his job is, first
> and foremost, to drive races for himself.  And how it's *not* his job to
> support Seb in his efforts to win another title. He did not accept team
> orders and was very vocal about that back then. In the last race in
> Brazil, where everyone sane has expected him to finally drop this
> attitude, since he didn't have a chance to win WDC anyway, and help his
> team mate - he still refused to play by the team orders. And was vocal
> about it too. I still remember how hard he made Seb's life in that race,
> he really lived up to his words: by times it looked like Ferrari is
> having 3 cars on the track and two of those were doing all they can to
> help Alonso. Sadly, one of those was in an RBR livery.

> Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands for
> once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it is not to
> follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI 21?!".

> Well, I would say "MULTI 21" went exactly there, where Webbo himself sent
> "MULTI 12" a few times last year - Never Land. In my view, today Seb
> decided it's a payback day for Webbo. Unfortunately for Webbo, Seb used
> the same coins Webbo gave him the last season in abundance.

There is a good deal in what you say, especially as regards Webber's
attitude at the back end of last season, but what sticks in my craw is the
way that Vettel doesn't have the guts to say face to face "*** you I'm
going to win any way I can" but apologizes and comes up with some cringing
excuse about doing it by mistake. FFS, it's difficult enough to overtake
when you mean to let alone "by mistake" (and then  to hold on to your lead
for ten laps).
--
Henry Birkin, Bt.
 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Edmun » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 09:02:25

Quote:

> Zeppo Marx wrote ...

>> I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he followed
>> those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and does some
>> apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just for the
>> show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is saying. He
>> did what he thought OK on the track. And he would do it again, if
>> opportunity occurs.
>> Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking
>> *"why the hell not?"*.

>> In 2012 Webbo always went an extra mile to explain how his job is,
>> first and foremost, to drive races for himself.  And how it's *not* his
>> job to support Seb in his efforts to win another title. He did not
>> accept team orders and was very vocal about that back then. In the last
>> race in Brazil, where everyone sane has expected him to finally drop
>> this attitude, since he didn't have a chance to win WDC anyway, and
>> help his team mate - he still refused to play by the team orders. And
>> was vocal about it too. I still remember how hard he made Seb's life in
>> that race,
>> he really lived up to his words: by times it looked like Ferrari is
>> having 3 cars on the track and two of those were doing all they can to
>> help Alonso. Sadly, one of those was in an RBR livery.

>> Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands
>> for once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it is
>> not to follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI 21?!".

>> Well, I would say "MULTI 21" went exactly there, where Webbo himself
>> sent "MULTI 12" a few times last year - Never Land. In my view, today
>> Seb decided it's a payback day for Webbo. Unfortunately for Webbo, Seb
>> used the same coins Webbo gave him the last season in abundance.

> If Webber hadn't been following team orders for the last 3 seasons, he
> would have been replaced. (By LH)

Yup thats the one with a perfect track record in being a team player and
following orders or keeping his word. :-)

Edmund

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Zeppo Mar » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 09:09:20


Quote:

> They can say what they like, what counts is what happens ont he track.
> If there have been times when Webber has been given direct team orders
> and completely ignored them, like Vettel did, then OK.

In after race interview Horner mentioned that there were a few occasions
where MW ignored team orders and even named 2: 2010 Turkey and 2012
Brazil races.

Quote:
> But if that is what going on, RBR need to basically abandon the idea of team orders.

Yup, agreed.
 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Mower Ma » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 09:11:41


Quote:

>> I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he followed
>> those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and does some
>> apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just for the show.
>> I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is saying. He did what
>> he thought OK on the track. And he would do it again, if opportunity occurs.
>> Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking *"why the hell not?"*.

>> In 2012 Webbo always went an extra mile to explain how his job is, first
>> and foremost, to drive races for himself.  And how it's *not* his job to
>> support Seb in his efforts to win another title. He did not accept team
>> orders and was very vocal about that back then. In the last race in
>> Brazil, where everyone sane has expected him to finally drop this
>> attitude, since he didn't have a chance to win WDC anyway, and help his
>> team mate - he still refused to play by the team orders. And was vocal
>> about it too. I still remember how hard he made Seb's life in that race,
>> he really lived up to his words: by times it looked like Ferrari is
>> having 3 cars on the track and two of those were doing all they can to
>> help Alonso. Sadly, one of those was in an RBR livery.

>> Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands for
>> once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it is not to
>> follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI 21?!".

>> Well, I would say "MULTI 21" went exactly there, where Webbo himself sent
>> "MULTI 12" a few times last year - Never Land. In my view, today Seb
>> decided it's a payback day for Webbo. Unfortunately for Webbo, Seb used
>> the same coins Webbo gave him the last season in abundance.

> There is a good deal in what you say, especially as regards Webber's
> attitude at the back end of last season, but what sticks in my craw is the
> way that Vettel doesn't have the guts to say face to face "*** you I'm
> going to win any way I can" but apologizes and comes up with some cringing
> excuse about doing it by mistake. FFS, it's difficult enough to overtake
> when you mean to let alone "by mistake" (and then  to hold on to your lead
> for ten laps).

Senna, of course would not have given an excuse, nor would one have been
expected from him. Why, then did Vettel? Soft sod? Or craving sympathy?
You tell me?

I think he knows he's unpopular and does not like that.

--
Chris

'Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it
every six months.'

(Oscar Wilde.)

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Zeppo Mar » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 09:25:47


Quote:

> There is a good deal in what you say, especially as regards Webber's
> attitude at the back end of last season, but what sticks in my craw is the
> way that Vettel doesn't have the guts to say face to face "*** you I'm
> going to win any way I can" but apologizes and comes up with some cringing
> excuse about doing it by mistake. FFS, it's difficult enough to overtake
> when you mean to let alone "by mistake" (and then  to hold on to your lead
> for ten laps).

Basically he did say "*** you all" but he chose other words to do so. :)
I have listened to his words on podium and in after the race interview:
there were *no* apologies. "I made a mistake" was the nearest to an
acknowledgment that he did something he shouldn't have done. This whole
"mea culpa" and other "apologizing" rubbish he uttered just happened
later. After Horner (or Marko or whoever) told him what is expected of
him now, from the team leaders, the team, sponsors and whom not.

I simply do not buy that he feels even a little bit of remorse for his
action on the track. He wanted to win, he won, he wants to move on now.

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Bruce Houl » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:12:51

Quote:


> > If Webber hadn't been following team orders for the last 3 seasons, he

> > would have been replaced. (By LH)

> Well, I am not as sure there as you are. Even Horner said (today's post

> race interview) that this is not a new situation between his 2 drivers.

> "This happened before, this also happened other way around and this will

> happen again". And he explicitly mentioned 2010 Turky race and Brazil

> 2012, where MW chose not to follow the team orders.

> (Do you remember after race interviews where MW was claiming that he is

> there to race and win and not to support Seb's efforts to win another

> title. And his complete and utter lack of understanding why Seb was

> upset. "Well, I can only say: sorry mate!")

The impression I got in Brazil (admittedly only from the telly) was that Mark might well let Seb past if Alonso was going to be WC without it, but not otherwise.

In the event he didn't need to, so I could well be mistaken.

I seem to recall another time last season where Mark was in front and the team simply told him to pit?

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by ~misfit » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 12:39:03


Quote:

>> They can say what they like, what counts is what happens ont he
>> track. If there have been times when Webber has been given direct team
>> orders and completely ignored them, like Vettel did, then OK.

> In after race interview Horner mentioned that there were a few
> occasions where MW ignored team orders and even named 2: 2010 Turkey
> and 2012 Brazil races.

What I remember after 2010 Turkey was Horner protesting that there were *no*
team orders. In fact team orders were illegal in F1 at the time. Charlie
needs to fine RBR $100 million, quick-smart. He has a very public confession
of rule-breaking in the public eye.
--
/Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

 
 
 

Seb/Webbo controversy

Post by Bobste » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 12:47:29

Quote:


> > If Webber hadn't been following team orders for the last 3 seasons, he

> > would have been replaced. (By LH)

> Well, I am not as sure there as you are. Even Horner said (today's post

> race interview) that this is not a new situation between his 2 drivers.

> "This happened before, this also happened other way around and this will

> happen again". And he explicitly mentioned 2010 Turky race and Brazil

> 2012, where MW chose not to follow the team orders.

One report quoted Horner as saying that the trust between the drivers broke down as a result of Turkey 2010. So there's clearly not an ideal team dynamic there, and it won't get any easier now.

To address some points made elsewhere in this thread
1) I think there are less instances of team orders than are imagined.
2) There is a way for Seb to square this - which is to hand a win to Webber if the opportunity arises
3) I agree that Webber doth protest too much.
4) Team orders only work if both drivers are prepared to play the game. The moment one of them decides he's a racer first and a team member second then it ain't going to work.