F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Mark Moelleri » Thu, 06 Oct 1994 03:19:24


With Tracy testing for Benetton, there has been some, aahh Heated Discussion, over
the difference between Indycar drivers and F1 drivers.  Since I was not castrated
over my post about the difference in the series themselves, I will try to
compare the drivers.

        If I wanted to drive a Ferrari in F1, I would have some idea of what I would
have to do, other than lose a few kilo's.  After placeing very high in a Formula Junior series,
( like Formula Ford or Vauxhall or Opel )it is on to F3000, and then F3, possibly
with a few stints in a Touring Car series.  (They still have F3 don't they? I get no news here in
America)
 Of course one has to do very well, to bring in sponsorship money, so normally you get very
top rate drivers in F1, who have some idea of who their competition is.  If you keep an
eye on who leads the F3000 and F3 series, you will have an idea of who will next be a
Formula 1 machine.
        Indy cars are quite different.  There is an Indylights series, and a CanAm series,
along with IMSA and SCCA.  There is also Formula Ford.  However, the series almost
ignore each other, and most are prohibitively expensive, except for F-Ford and SCCA,
which are done more for fun than profit.  I know Robby Gordon, who is one of the best
young american drivers to come on the scene, came from off-road racing.  
Unlike most other american sports, there is no "ladder" to get to IndyCars.  I would
say that it is detrimental to the sport, but does not neccessarily reflect on the quality of
the drivers.  Indycars used to be "do it your self-ers", with cars made by small firms
or private individuals up into the sixties.  Because the IndyCar drivers don't have to come
with a pedigree, the best ones are the ones who will be good at finding the limits of the car.

On a more opinionated level...
I was amazed at Michael Andretti's performance in F1.  Since he did make it to third
once, I think he would do better if he had a chance to do lots of testing etc. with the
car.  I do think that F1's standing starts take a lot more skill than the rolling starts
of the Indycars.  Going to Indycar, in that respect, is much easier to do than the other way around.
If Tracy, or Villeneuve (? sorry for the spelling) were to come to F1, I think that the
start is where they will have the most trouble.

Mark Moellering

 
 
 

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by 01keander.. » Thu, 06 Oct 1994 22:52:15

Quote:
>  > On a more opinionated level...  I was amazed at

MichaelAndretti's performance in F1.  Since he did make it to third  
 once,I think he would do better if he had a chance to do lots of
testing etc. with the car.  I do think that F1's standing starts
take a lot more skill than the rolling starts  of the Indycars.
Going to Indycar, in that respect, is much easier to do than the other
way around.  If Tracy, or Villeneuve (? sorry for the spelling) were
to come to F1, I think that the start is where they will have the

So your saying Nigel Mansell had no problem with rolling starts last
season.  He lost the Indy 500 because he didn't understand the rolling
start.  At the start of nearly every race last season he would lose a
position because he didn't understand the rolling start.  The only
thing is in Indycars a mistake at a rolling start usually results in
lost positions while a mistake in F1 standing starts often results
with an accident.  Still, either way you go the transition for starts
is not easy.

        Kriss Anderson


 
 
 

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Ian Woolla » Sat, 08 Oct 1994 02:58:04

Actually standing starts are even harder to learn. Mansell lost one or
two places but people who don't know standing starts will lose four,
five or six places easily..

On the other hand, people who don't know warm up laps frequently lose
three whole races OTOH ;-)

-Ian.

-Ian

I used to believe in reincarnation, but that was in another life.

 
 
 

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Alistair John Mo » Sun, 09 Oct 1994 18:37:02



Quote:
> If I wanted to drive a Ferrari in F1, I would have some idea of what I would
> have to do, other than lose a few kilo's.  After placeing very high in a
> Formula Junior series, ( like Formula Ford or Vauxhall or Opel )it is on to
> F3000, and then F3, possibly with a few stints in a Touring Car series.
> (They still have F3 don't they? I get no news here in America)

     F3000 is the old Formula 2, so comes after F3. And yes F3 is still going
but is run as a national series, F3000 is international. Drive a touring car
and it is unlikely you will be put in an F1 machine.

Quote:
> If you keep an eye on who leads the F3000 and F3 series, you will have an
> idea of who will next be a Formula 1 machine.

     Up to a point, but money talks for the lower teams.

Quote:
> On a more opinionated level...
> If Tracy, or Villeneuve (? sorry for the spelling) were to come to F1, I
> think that the start is where they will have the most trouble.

     Unlikely, starts can be learnt and a top team will have the money to
help with this. A race is not usally won or lost at the start. The higher
g pulled by F1 drivers under braking, conering and accelerating will be
where the IC drivers will suffer.

     I think tracy has already been in Europe, did he not do some Formula
Ford work? I think he teamed with Mark Blundell? If my memory is correct
there's a story about them both testing at Brands Hatch. Tracy had the idea
that clearways could be taken quicker if you placed an inside front wheel
over the kerbing and on the grass, Mark wasn't so sure. Anyway Tracy goes
out for his laps vowing to try the new line. Mark wanders over and casually
informs the team of Tracy's plan. The mechanics rush up pit lane just in
time to see Tracys car reduce itself to component form against the barriers
alongside the straight. Tracy climbs out unhurt, later on he's telling
everyone that a few more inches was all he needed.

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F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Bob Gilbe » Tue, 11 Oct 1994 21:18:20


->
->     Unlikely, starts can be learnt and a top team will have the money to
->help with this. A race is not usally won or lost at the start. The higher
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rarely won, but frequently lost at the start.

-Bob

 
 
 

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Mark Moelleri » Wed, 12 Oct 1994 04:16:13

O.K... I Posted the original article, so I thought I would clarify my point about starting.
Michael Andretti crashed out an awful lot before or at the first turn.  It seemed that
whenever he made it "into" the race, he did quite well. (barring the occasional mechanical
failure).  Based on this I figured that while yes, F1 drivers will have to get used to
the rolling start, they won't be crashing out whenever they see the green flag either.
        Yes, Mansell had some troubles at the start, but he never took himself, and several
other drivers, out before the first turn.

Any other points I will file away as usefull, or not so usefull, information.

Mark Moellering

 
 
 

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Eric S Zimmerm » Thu, 13 Oct 1994 06:02:05

Quote:

>With Tracy testing for Benetton, there has been some, aahh Heated Discussion, over
>the difference between Indycar drivers and F1 drivers.  Since I was not castrated
>over my post about the difference in the series themselves, I will try to
>compare the drivers.
>    If I wanted to drive a Ferrari in F1, I would have some idea of what I would
>have to do, other than lose a few kilo's.  After placeing very high in a Formula Junior series,
>( like Formula Ford or Vauxhall or Opel )it is on to F3000, and then F3, possibly
>with a few stints in a Touring Car series.  (They still have F3 don't they? I get no news here in
>America)
> Of course one has to do very well, to bring in sponsorship money, so normally you get very
>top rate drivers in F1, who have some idea of who their competition is.  If you keep an
>eye on who leads the F3000 and F3 series, you will have an idea of who will next be a
>Formula 1 machine.
>    Indy cars are quite different.  There is an Indylights series, and a CanAm series,
>along with IMSA and SCCA.  There is also Formula Ford.  However, the series almost
>ignore each other, and most are prohibitively expensive, except for F-Ford and SCCA,
>which are done more for fun than profit.  I know Robby Gordon, who is one of the best
>young american drivers to come on the scene, came from off-road racing.  
>Unlike most other american sports, there is no "ladder" to get to IndyCars.  I would
>say that it is detrimental to the sport, but does not neccessarily reflect on the quality of
>the drivers.  Indycars used to be "do it your self-ers", with cars made by small firms
>or private individuals up into the sixties.  Because the IndyCar drivers don't have to come
>with a pedigree, the best ones are the ones who will be good at finding the limits of the car.
>On a more opinionated level...
>I was amazed at Michael Andretti's performance in F1.  Since he did make it to third
>once, I think he would do better if he had a chance to do lots of testing etc. with the
>car.  I do think that F1's standing starts take a lot more skill than the rolling starts
>of the Indycars.  Going to Indycar, in that respect, is much easier to do than the other way around.
>If Tracy, or Villeneuve (? sorry for the spelling) were to come to F1, I think that the
>start is where they will have the most trouble.
>Mark Moellering


     I'm sure this will make a few people upset, but i think much of the
differences between f1 and indy is how Americans view sports in general.
If  you look at other American sports baseball, basketball, etc, you
quickly see that people want to see a "superstar".  Unfortunatly, this
doesn't always mean that they are the best at their sport.  Just take
a look at a baseball all-star game.  You rarely have the best players
at the time.  Instead you end up with the players with the most"hype"
around them.  No doubt this has carried over into Indy - car racing
people want to go see the " Andrettis and Unsers", and thus a race
team will get more sponsers if they have one of those family members.
I don't think this is so true for f1, you see far more turnover in
f1, and teams going for the best drivers.  This is because the rest
of the world wants to see the "best", and when they start losing,
they are no longer the "best".
     I for one am sick of this sports mentality, when i watch an
indy car race i want to see the best drivers in the best cars.
i could care less what the last name of the driver is.  I don't
go to any sporting event to see an individual, i want to see the
sport played at it's best.  Until Americans demand to see
sports this way, we will continue to support mediocrity in all sports
not just indy car.

                     More than my 2 cents worth,
                                              Eric Zimmerman.

 
 
 

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Bob Gilbe » Thu, 13 Oct 1994 20:23:54


->
->     I'm sure this will make a few people upset, but i think much of the
->differences between f1 and indy is how Americans view sports in general.
->If  you look at other American sports baseball, basketball, etc, you
->quickly see that people want to see a "superstar".  Unfortunatly, this
->doesn't always mean that they are the best at their sport.  Just take
->a look at a baseball all-star game.  You rarely have the best players
->at the time.  Instead you end up with the players with the most"hype"
->around them.  No doubt this has carried over into Indy - car racing
->people want to go see the " Andrettis and Unsers", and thus a race
->team will get more sponsers if they have one of those family members.
->I don't think this is so true for f1, you see far more turnover in
->f1, and teams going for the best drivers.  This is because the rest
->of the world wants to see the "best", and when they start losing,
->they are no longer the "best".
->     I for one am sick of this sports mentality, when i watch an
->indy car race i want to see the best drivers in the best cars.
->i could care less what the last name of the driver is.  I don't
->go to any sporting event to see an individual, i want to see the
->sport played at it's best.  Until Americans demand to see
->sports this way, we will continue to support mediocrity in all sports
->not just indy car.
->
->
->                     More than my 2 cents worth,
->                                              Eric Zimmerman.

Then how do you account for the desire of F1 to bring Mansell back???
(Can you say "superstar").

-Bob

 
 
 

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Dave Hago » Fri, 14 Oct 1994 04:19:41


|> [snip[
|> :      Unlikely, starts can be learnt and a top team will have the money to
|> : help with this. A race is not usally won or lost at the start. The higher
|>
|>  Unless your name is Michael Andretti.... I think it took a few rounds for
|> him to complete the first lap of a GP. But he was only one of the IC drivers
|> in F1.. err... no.... he was the Only one wasn't he. ;)

        Well, there was also his dad, Mario, who drove in F1 for awhile.  You
know, Mario Andretti, 1978 F1 World Driving Champion?

|> : g pulled by F1 drivers under braking, conering and accelerating will be
|> : where the IC drivers will suffer.
|>
|> This I do agree with. They all say after a test drive that the braking is the
|> hardest to get used to because of the Carbon brakes.

        Paul Tracy said he had no particular problem with the carbon brakes;
he had more problems with the immediacy of the throttle response (no
turbo lag).

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F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Peter G. Olivo » Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:02:03



Quote:

>     I'm sure this will make a few people upset, but i think much of the
>differences between f1 and indy is how Americans view sports in general.
>If  you look at other American sports baseball, basketball, etc, you
>quickly see that people want to see a "superstar".  Unfortunatly, this
>doesn't always mean that they are the best at their sport.  Just take
>a look at a baseball all-star game.  You rarely have the best players
>at the time.  Instead you end up with the players with the most"hype"
>around them.  No doubt this has carried over into Indy - car racing
>people want to go see the " Andrettis and Unsers", and thus a race
>team will get more sponsers if they have one of those family members.
>I don't think this is so true for f1, you see far more turnover in
>f1, and teams going for the best drivers.  This is because the rest
>of the world wants to see the "best", and when they start losing,
>they are no longer the "best".
>     I for one am sick of this sports mentality, when i watch an
>indy car race i want to see the best drivers in the best cars.
>i could care less what the last name of the driver is.  I don't
>go to any sporting event to see an individual, i want to see the
>sport played at it's best.  Until Americans demand to see
>sports this way, we will continue to support mediocrity in all sports
>not just indy car.

Not upset, but I'd like to pose a couple of questions about this hypothesis:
If it's true what you say about how U.S. fans influence the situation, how
do you explain the *** of U.S. motorcycle road racers for over a
decadee?  How do you explain the *** of the U.S. Trophee des Nations
motocross team for over a dozen years?  If the superstars are all hype, what
about the 1992 U.S. Olympic basketball team?  The 1980 U.S. Olympic hockey
team?  The America's Cup?  

Look, you want to hold an opinion, that's fine, but try to be a tab more
rigorous in creating a defense.  This one's way too easy to knock down.
--


 
 
 

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Kristian Steenstr » Thu, 13 Oct 1994 08:25:02



: but is run as a national series, F3000 is international. Drive a touring car
: and it is unlikely you will be put in an F1 machine.

Unless your name is Gerhard Berger (although he had parrallel careers),
Phillipe Adams, Nigel Mansell (technically, I *am* being picky), Emanuele
Pirro, Roland Ratzenberger .......

:      Unlikely, starts can be learnt and a top team will have the money to
: help with this. A race is not usally won or lost at the start. The higher

 Unless your name is Michael Andretti.... I think it took a few rounds for
him to complete the first lap of a GP. But he was only one of the IC drivers
in F1.. err... no.... he was the Only one wasn't he. ;)

: g pulled by F1 drivers under braking, conering and accelerating will be
: where the IC drivers will suffer.

This I do agree with. They all say after a test drive that the braking is the
hardest to get used to because of the Carbon brakes.

--

|M|I|N|C|O|M  Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.     | No employer opinion included

 
 
 

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Rui Pedro Mendes Salguei » Sat, 15 Oct 1994 20:12:53

Quote:


> (Kristian S***strup) writes:
>|>: g pulled by F1 drivers under braking, conering and accelerating will be
>|>: where the IC drivers will suffer.
>|> This I do agree with. They all say after a test drive that the braking
>|> is the hardest to get used to because of the Carbon brakes.
>    Paul Tracy said he had no particular problem with the carbon brakes;
> he had more problems with the immediacy of the throttle response (no
> turbo lag).

One other problem was doing fast *right* bends. Most of Estoril bends
are to the right. And this includes the more 'interesting' ones: curve 1
at the end of the stright, curve 2 (> 250 km/h, no runaway), and the
parabolic "Senna".

Tracy's neck is not used to that kind of effort.

It is curious to have problems with a *reduced* delay on the engine
response. I suppose he had to unlearn certain automatisms.

--
 Rui Salgueiro |   Dpt. de Matematica    |`Whom the gods love die young'

               |    Portugal - Europe    | Villeneuve/82, Toivonen/86, Senna/94

 
 
 

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Geoff Polla » Fri, 14 Oct 1994 21:39:16


writes:

Quote:

> O.K... I Posted the original article, so I thought I would clarify my point about starting.
> Michael Andretti crashed out an awful lot before or at the first turn.  It seemed that
> whenever he made it "into" the race, he did quite well. (barring the occasional mechanical
> failure).  Based on this I figured that while yes, F1 drivers will have to get used to
> the rolling start, they won't be crashing out whenever they see the green flag either.
>    Yes, Mansell had some troubles at the start, but he never took himself, and several
> other drivers, out before the first turn.

Interestingly on Sportsnight (BBC) last night (12 Oct) the great Nige was commenting that when
he came back to F1 he would devote all of his time to it unlike Michael Andretti who flew home to
the US after every race!!! No love lost here methinks.

Geoff Pollard          |         "Meanwhile I'm stiiiill thinking"

Voice:+44(0)273 888978 |

 
 
 

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Jonothan Gre » Fri, 14 Oct 1994 21:15:01


Quote:

>    Well, there was also his dad, Mario, who drove in F1 for awhile.  You
>know, Mario Andretti, 1978 F1 World Driving Champion?

I have some difficulty seeing Mario A.'s WC as a good adverti***t for
the skills of IC drivers, I seem to recall him having a *** car,
and the benefit of team orders over his much faster team mate, a Mr Ronnie
Peterson...
--
Jonathon Green. BNR Europe Ltd, London Road, Harlow, Essex  CM17 9NA, UK


Fax:   +44-279-451866                    | product of a deranged mind.
Phone: +44-279-402510 (direct line)      | So don't blame BNR OK?
 
 
 

F1 Drivers vs. Indy Drivers

Post by Sunit S. Carpent » Sun, 16 Oct 1994 12:27:05

Quote:

>>One other problem was doing fast *right* bends. Most of Estoril bends
>>are to the right. And this includes the more 'interesting' ones: curve 1
>>at the end of the stright, curve 2 (> 250 km/h, no runaway), and the
>>parabolic "Senna".

>>Tracy's neck is not used to that kind of effort.

>Is this based on something Tracy said or just speculation?

>Less than half of IndyCar races are run on ovals, and most road couses are
>run clockwise, affording ample opportunity to develop balanced neck muscles.
>--



One problem that IC drivers may have in F1 is G-forces during acceleration and
deacceleration.  F1 cars start ***ly and stop ***ly due to powerful
engines, light weight, carbon fiber brakes, etc.  And for side to side neck
movements, IC drivers would be easily cope with it as in oval racing there is a
constant g-force on one side of the neck.  But the G-forces on ovals are
usually uniform and only on one side.  Maybe in F1 where side G-forces are on
both sides, would cause some neck problems in IC drivers.  A few months of neck
exercises would allow anyone to cope with G-forces in IC and F1.

Sunit Carpenter

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