Surly Mika H has to show his stuff this year

Surly Mika H has to show his stuff this year

Post by Gunter Rola » Tue, 27 Jan 1998 04:00:00




Quote:

>Gunther, while you're right that you cannot win races without an engine,
>rest of your post is rather uninformed. The engine reliability problems
>with the Mercedes/Ilmor were largely power independent. The problem was in
>the oil circulation, and was known before the race. McLaren tested several
>engines before A1 and Nurburgring, and located the problem but could not
>fix it.

>So, your statement that "they obviously decided to pus power to the edge"
>is almost entirely incorrect. In Nurburgring, Hakkinen dropped the power
>of the engine considerably after 25 laps when the oil feed problem
>surfaced once again. The occurence of the problem was largely power
>independent, but once it occured, the damages could be limited by lowering
>the power.

>Or at least that's what I've read.
>                                                            Tuomo

Well, I didn't make myself very clear, admittedly. I don't think
that MB/Illmor could have solved the problem by running the same
design somewhat 'detuned' or that they created the problem by
pushing an existing design. Rather I think it's quite likely that
the apparent problems in the lubrication system resulted from the
very agressive schedule that they had taken in pushing the engine
towards minimum weight, minium size and maxium power. It seems
reasonable to assume that with a different emphasis the same
resources could have been used to create a more conservative
design, with better reliability. I agree that this view is
totally uninformed, but unless you know somebody inside Illmor,
I doubt very much that you can prove this assumptions to be
wrong.

Gunther

 
 
 

Surly Mika H has to show his stuff this year

Post by Tero Turtiain » Wed, 28 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>Look at the figures:-

>Coulthard has started 58 GPs, obtained 117 points, 3 wins, 15 podium
>positions, 5 fastest laps, led 21 GPs/310 laps/1456 km, 5 pole
>positions, (front row 7 times)

>Hakkinen has started 96 GPs, obtained 118 points, 1 win, 16 podium
>positions, 1 fastest lap, led 10 GPs/67 laps/324 km, 1 pole position
>(front row 3 times)

>So Hakkinen has got 1 more point and 1 more podium position in 38 more
>GPs.  In every other statistic, Coulthard has beaten him.

Coulthard has started 0 GPs in a Lotus, 25 GPs in a Williams.
Hakkinen has started 30 GPs in a Lotus, 0 GPs in a Williams.

I think you should not forget this when you are making statistics like "he has
done this in only this few GPs"...
--

 < Tero Turtiainen    |      Yes Sir, may I*** your boots or do your Highness   >
 < turtiain at iki.fi |      use dry cleaning?  - Stone                           >



 
 
 

Surly Mika H has to show his stuff this year

Post by Markus Vars » Wed, 28 Jan 1998 04:00:00


|> >Look at the figures:-
|> >
|> >Coulthard has started 58 GPs, obtained 117 points, 3 wins, 15 podium
|> >positions, 5 fastest laps, led 21 GPs/310 laps/1456 km, 5 pole
|> >positions, (front row 7 times)
|> >
|> >Hakkinen has started 96 GPs, obtained 118 points, 1 win, 16 podium
|> >positions, 1 fastest lap, led 10 GPs/67 laps/324 km, 1 pole position
|> >(front row 3 times)
|> >
|> >So Hakkinen has got 1 more point and 1 more podium position in 38 more
|> >GPs.  In every other statistic, Coulthard has beaten him.

Ave !!!

 It is, however, quite ironic that statistcs are the only arena
 wher Coulthard is beating Mika, on the race track the more common
 occurence is that Mika is outperforming David. Over the two seasons
 they have diriven in the same team, only in the first half of
 97 season David was actually stronger than Mika. Dont slap
 me with statistics which make absolutely no
 discrimination between driver and car performance. Perhaps in
 10 years your arguments will be bought by others than
 Coulthard fans also.

- Oho -

 
 
 

Surly Mika H has to show his stuff this year

Post by Grant J. Flemi » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Re: Re: Surly Mika H has to show his stuff this year

Quote:
> |> >So Hakkinen has got 1 more point and 1 more podium position in 38 more
> |> >GPs.  In every other statistic, Coulthard has beaten him.
> Ave !!!
>  It is, however, quite ironic that statistcs are the only arena
>  wher Coulthard is beating Mika, on the race track the more common
>  occurence is that Mika is outperforming David. Over the two seasons
>  they have diriven in the same team, only in the first half of
>  97 season David was actually stronger than Mika. Dont slap
>  me with statistics which make absolutely no
>  discrimination between driver and car performance. Perhaps in
>  10 years your arguments will be bought by others than
>  Coulthard fans also.
> - Oho -

Perhaps....but it is pretty simple to see that in a shorter time at McLaren,
Coulthard has won more races then Hakkinen and scored more points in the WC
this year.  Maybe you don't consider wins and points a determination of the
better driver. Perhaps in 10 years these little stats will be bought by
Hakkinen fans also.

Grant Fleming

 
 
 

Surly Mika H has to show his stuff this year

Post by Markus Vars » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00

|> > Ave !!!
|> >  It is, however, quite ironic that statistcs are the only arena
|> >  wher Coulthard is beating Mika, on the race track the more common
|> >  occurence is that Mika is outperforming David. Over the two seasons
|> >  they have diriven in the same team, only in the first half of
|> >  97 season David was actually stronger than Mika. Dont slap
|> >  me with statistics which make absolutely no
|> >  discrimination between driver and car performance. Perhaps in
|> >  10 years your arguments will be bought by others than
|> >  Coulthard fans also.
|> > - Oho -
|>
|> Perhaps....but it is pretty simple to see that in a shorter time at McLaren,
|> Coulthard has won more races then Hakkinen and scored more points in the WC
|> this year.  Maybe you don't consider wins and points a determination of the
|> better driver. Perhaps in 10 years these little stats will be bought by
|> Hakkinen fans also.
|>
|> Grant Fleming

 Ave !!!

 Yes when some of the relevant facts have been forgotten.
 Last season stats of the McLaren drivers were so severely
 distorted by mechanical unreliabilty of the car that
 making judgment into either direction based on them is
 skating on thin ice. If my arguments are biased for Hakkinen
 as I put more significance to qualifying performance and
 general perception of speed, the arguments based on stats that favor
 Coulthard are just as biased as they fail to
 distinguish car and driver performance. My way of looking at
 things, however, seem to be favored by those that can be regarded
 experts, as majority of  F1 related press has ranked Hakkinen
 higher than Coulthard, even, if I am not misled, in the UK.

- Oho -

 
 
 

Surly Mika H has to show his stuff this year

Post by Matthew D. Sulliv » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00

So who is this "Surly Mika" guy, and what is he angry about?

-Matt

 
 
 

Surly Mika H has to show his stuff this year

Post by Tuomo O. Vuolteenah » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> Perhaps....but it is pretty simple to see that in a shorter time at McLaren,
> Coulthard has won more races then Hakkinen and scored more points in the WC
> this year.  Maybe you don't consider wins and points a determination of the
> better driver.

Perhaps simplicity is not always the only goal. Hakkinen's still got more
points during the two seasons together. While Coulthard got lucky a
couple of times, the qualifyings push Hakkinen ahead of Coult*** my
rankings.

Quote:
> Perhaps in 10 years these little stats will be bought by Hakkinen fans
> also.

Yes, it'll take about 10 years to convert me and RD.

                                                                Tuomo

 
 
 

Surly Mika H has to show his stuff this year

Post by Tuomo O. Vuolteenah » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00

I like it! Surly Mika and Wimpy Dave. Let's play beer and quiche!


Quote:

> So who is this "Surly Mika" guy, and what is he angry about?

> -Matt

 
 
 

Surly Mika H has to show his stuff this year

Post by Mark O » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Tuomo,
        Finally we agree on something...no doubt Hakkinen is the better driver
at McL....if the engine were reliable last year...Mika would have 3 wins.
Still say that neither of the McL drivers have the consistancy to win a title
though.

Mark

 
 
 

Surly Mika H has to show his stuff this year

Post by John D. Owe » Sat, 31 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> Tuomo,
>         Finally we agree on something...no doubt Hakkinen is the better driver
> at McL....if the engine were reliable last year...Mika would have 3 wins.
> Still say that neither of the McL drivers have the consistancy to win a title
> though.

And if the McLaren gearbox had been more reliable in Canada, Coulthard
would have had a third win in the season, too. What counts at the end of
the day is results, not what-ifs. If Chris Amon had the reliability from
his cars to match his talent, he'd have been World Champion twice, given
the number of times he led races by miles only to have the car break
down (particularly at Ferrari). As it was, he left F1 without a single
win to his credit, almost as big a travesty of justice as the fact that
Stirling Moss never won a Championship, despite being the acknowledged
pre-eminent driver of his generation.

JDO