All Time Dogs

All Time Dogs

Post by Brendan McFarla » Fri, 23 Sep 1994 17:34:00


This year's Pacific must surely rank amongst the "all time dogs" of Grand  
Prix cars. 35mph (!!!) slower than a Ferrari on the straights of Monza,  
and even the team admits that a brick is better aerodynamically than their  
PR01.

There were also some real howlers in the late '70s/early '80s, the  
Merzario and Kauhsen immediately spring to mind.

Can anyone offer other worthy candidates for the title?

Brendan.

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All Time Dogs

Post by Toby Vaughn Padfie » Sat, 24 Sep 1994 02:24:15

Quote:

>This year's Pacific must surely rank amongst the "all time dogs" of Grand  
>Prix cars. 35mph (!!!) slower than a Ferrari on the straights of Monza,  
>and even the team admits that a brick is better aerodynamically than their  
>PR01.

        Well, seeing as how all F1 cars have drag values exceeding that
of a brick- huge exposed tires, wings that are there to catch as much
air as possible. Granted the Pacific is not very good aerodynamically,
but the brick analogy is not very representative.

Quote:
>There were also some real howlers in the late '70s/early '80s, the  
>Merzario and Kauhsen immediately spring to mind.
>Can anyone offer other worthy candidates for the title?

        The Life car from 1988 or 1989? Gary Brabham was never even close
to qualifying. How about the Andrea Moda cars from 1992? Moreno managed
to s***onto the grid at Monaco and only completed like 7 laps there. I
am sure that there are many others from before my time...

TOBY...

 
 
 

All Time Dogs

Post by Tuomo Eloran » Sat, 24 Sep 1994 17:23:38

Quote:

>This year's Pacific must surely rank amongst the "all time dogs" of Grand  
>Prix cars. 35mph (!!!) slower than a Ferrari on the straights of Monza,  
>and even the team admits that a brick is better aerodynamically than their  
>PR01.
>Can anyone offer other worthy candidates for the title?

How about the Andrea Moda in '92 (btw it was designed by Nick Wirth).
They were able to pre-qualify only once (Monaco?). I think they were
something like 3 to 4 seconds slower than any other cars even amongst
the pre-qualifiers. They had also some really bad financial probs, that
led to a trial against the team manager, after he was arrested for
forging some documents (!!).

I think they must be one of the all-time tail-enders of the teams.
Or what could you say about a team, that had only one set of
dry-weather tires for one gp (Silverstone?), since they thought
it was going to be a wet race. So McCarthy had to try to pre-qualify
with wet weather tires on dry.

I am not 100% sure, but I remember they were excluded from the series
because they were not able to run both cars competively.

And that was the team McCarthy wanted to get so badly that he sold his
house.. Too bad.

I think that the designing team (SimTek designs) was partially
owned at that time by either Max or Bernie (and sold his part of it
during the season).

t: Tumppi


Ps. Not 100% sure of all the facts, since I don't have a factbook
right here, just typing from memory.

 
 
 

All Time Dogs

Post by Phil Marsha » Sat, 24 Sep 1994 19:27:26

|> This year's Pacific must surely rank amongst the "all time dogs" of Grand  
|> Prix cars. 35mph (!!!) slower than a Ferrari on the straights of Monza,  
|> and even the team admits that a brick is better aerodynamically than their  
|> PR01.
|>
|> There were also some real howlers in the late '70s/early '80s, the  
|> Merzario and Kauhsen immediately spring to mind.
|>
|> Can anyone offer other worthy candidates for the title?
|>
|> Brendan.
|>

That stupid Tyrell that had 6 wheels. Had me in tears - what a turkey :-)

Phil

 
 
 

All Time Dogs

Post by Risto Lankin » Sat, 24 Sep 1994 18:00:19

Quote:

>This year's Pacific must surely rank amongst the "all time dogs" of Grand  
>Prix cars. 35mph (!!!) slower than a Ferrari on the straights of Monza,  
>and even the team admits that a brick is better aerodynamically than their  
>PR01.
        [...]
>Can anyone offer other worthy candidates for the title?

How about Andrea Moda in '92 ?

terv: Risto
--

An oddly-placed computer display unit overleaf; to see, please turn over. -->

 
 
 

All Time Dogs

Post by Paul S. Winals » Sun, 25 Sep 1994 02:51:56


|>This year's Pacific must surely rank amongst the "all time dogs" of Grand  
|>Prix cars. 35mph (!!!) slower than a Ferrari on the straights of Monza,  
|>and even the team admits that a brick is better aerodynamically than their  
|>PR01.
|>
|>There were also some real howlers in the late '70s/early '80s, the  
|>Merzario and Kauhsen immediately spring to mind.
|>
|>Can anyone offer other worthy candidates for the title?

Andrea Moda has to top the list, at least for recent years.  Other recent
dogs include Coloni, Life, and Zakspeed (in their last year).

The early Toleman (now Benetton) car was called "the flying pig" because of
its abysmal handling.  Just shows that dogs can improve.

--PSW

 
 
 

All Time Dogs

Post by Paul S. Winals » Sun, 25 Sep 1994 02:54:25


|>
|>That stupid Tyrell that had 6 wheels. Had me in tears - what a turkey :-)

The Tyrrell 6-wheeler may have looked weird, but it was NOT a dog!  Far from
it--during its first year, it usually qualified well and regularly won races.

--PSW

 
 
 

All Time Dogs

Post by Ian G Batt » Sat, 24 Sep 1994 21:16:27


Quote:

> That stupid Tyrell that had 6 wheels. Had me in tears - what a turkey :-)

Won a race, though, I think.  It was certainly not the dog of the field.

ian

 
 
 

All Time Dogs

Post by VINCENT B » Sun, 25 Sep 1994 12:12:12


: Andrea Moda has to top the list, at least for recent years.  Other recent
: dogs include Coloni, Life, and Zakspeed (in their last year).

: The early Toleman (now Benetton) car was called "the flying pig" because of
: its abysmal handling.  Just shows that dogs can improve.

Toleman also has another nickname: The turbo truck:)

 
 
 

All Time Dogs

Post by VINCENT B » Sun, 25 Sep 1994 12:15:38

: There were also some real howlers in the late '70s/early '80s, the  
: Merzario and Kauhsen immediately spring to mind.

: Can anyone offer other worthy candidates for the title?

Beatrice Lola; Lots of fanfare and nothing to show.
ATS (1963); ask Phil Hill:)
Bugatti (1955)
Aston Matin(1959?)

 
 
 

All Time Dogs

Post by Brendan McFarla » Sun, 25 Sep 1994 16:36:00



Quote:
> The early Toleman (now Benetton) car was called "the flying pig" because of
> its abysmal handling.  Just shows that dogs can improve.

I thought they called it "Belgrano", a less than tasteful reference to the  
Argentinian warship which was sunk by a Britsh submarine during the  
Falklands confict in 1983.

Brendan.

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All Time Dogs

Post by Dan Jon » Mon, 26 Sep 1994 06:16:57

Quote:

>Real F1 dogs of all time... (in no particular order, these are just as they
>come to me...)

>* The mid-Fifties Gleed-MG -- an old Cooper F3 chassis with a blown
>  750cc pre-war MG engine in the back of it. -- Never turned up for a race.

>* The ATS (the original Italian one) -- should have been great, as it was
>  designed and built by well-funded ex-Ferrari people, and driven by
>  ex-Ferrari drivers. Instead, it was a complete disaster.

>* The Derrington-Francis -- Alf Francis' attempt to update the ATS slightly.

>* ATS (the 1970s/80s one) -- more due to bad management than intrinsically
>  bad cars (some good designers...)

Pete, I'm not sure that I can agree with you on the later ATS.  I think that
I remember reading something about the former ATS where in order to remove
the engine, parts of the chassis members had to be unwelded.  Yikes!

As for the later ATS, at least they had some pretty good qualifying perform-
ances.  I remember attending the '80 USGP at Long Beach.  After Friday's (I
think) qualifying session, I walked into the garage and everyone is gathered
around the posted qualifying sheet.  It was unbelievable, Jan Lammers had put
the ATS into 4th fastest.  The time held up on Saturday.  At least that's the
way I remember it (disclaimer).  His day was short though, as he broke a half
shaft on the start.  I figured oh well, I'll root for Cheever's Osella.  He
broke a halfshalf several laps later.

Manfred Winklehock later took the ride over and had some competitive perform-
ances in '81 and '82.  I think that he put the ATS 5th on the starting grid
at Detroit in '82(?).  

Of course, the alltime dog was the LIFE.  Even the great Irish driver Jack
O'Mally could not get the thing on the grid.

Dan Jones

 
 
 

All Time Dogs

Post by Jeff Freymuell » Mon, 26 Sep 1994 08:08:31

Quote:

>This year's Pacific must surely rank amongst the "all time dogs" of Grand  
>Prix cars. 35mph (!!!) slower than a Ferrari on the straights of Monza,  
>and even the team admits that a brick is better aerodynamically than their  
>PR01.

>There were also some real howlers in the late '70s/early '80s, the  
>Merzario and Kauhsen immediately spring to mind.

>Can anyone offer other worthy candidates for the title?

How about Chris Amon's car, the Amon-Ford AF1 (1974)? I went through at least
two or three major revisions, moving the radiators all over the place, and
was a dog in every configuration. The Maki (also 1974) was a radical Japanese
built F1 car that looked much more conventional when it finally got to the track.
I think they only tried to qualify it seriously once, and it crashed heavily,
ending Howden Ganley's F1 career.

Since you mention the Merzario, my recollection is that it was always fast
enough to qualify but never finished, which frustrated whoever was left off
the grid as a result.

The last year or two of BRM was not very pretty either. It was said that the
engine *could* pull the skin off a rice pudding, but the strain was often too
much for it.

Jeff

 
 
 

All Time Dogs

Post by Ross Taylor,Peyt312,6652,26554 » Mon, 26 Sep 1994 10:19:04

Dan Jones and Pete Fenelon discussed ATS cars

Pete called them dogs, Dan disagreed.

and with some justice perhaps.

Jarier scored a point for the team on its debut  at Long Beach in 77.

Quote:
> As for the later ATS, at least they had some pretty good qualifying perform-
> ances.  I remember attending the '80 USGP at Long Beach.  After Friday's (I
> think) qualifying session, I walked into the garage and everyone is gathered
> around the posted qualifying sheet.  It was unbelievable, Jan Lammers had put
> the ATS into 4th fastest.  

3rd actually.  Truly amazing.  Lammers was subbing for Surer who had bust
his legs.

Quote:
> Manfred Winklehock later took the ride over and had some competitive perform-
> ances in '81 and '82.  I think that he put the ATS 5th on the starting grid
> at Detroit in '82(?).  

82: Winklehock 5th in Rio, Salazar 5th at Imola (the boycott race)

Doug Nye calls ATS 'no-hopers'.

And now for the great ATS trivia contest.

The team scored one more finish in the points during these years.

1. When was it?

2. Where was it?

3. Who drove it?

AND, for the grand prize,

4. Who (or what) sponsored it?

Ross Taylor