Webber and team orders

Webber and team orders

Post by Bobste » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 02:28:00


Here's an extract from the post-race press conference at Silverstone
2011. To recap: After the pitstops had all played out, Fred was
leading, Vettel 2nd, Webber 3rd. Webber was gaining on Vettel. Horner
told him to hold station. Webber continued to attack.

<start of extract>
(Adam Hay-Nicholls - Metro) Mark, Christian Horner has said that you
should be fine with the team orders at the end and if you and Seb had
raced until the end you would both have ended up in the fence. Do you
agree with that? Was it the right call? Does this mean realistically
that you are out of this championship?

MW: I am not fine with it. No. That's the answer to that. If Fernando
retires on the last lap we are battling for the victory so I was fine
until the end. Of course I ignored the team as I want to try and get
another place. Seb was doing his best and I was doing my best. I don't
want to crash with anyone, but that was it. I tried to do my best with
the amount of conversation I had. One-way conversation obviously as I
wasn't talking too much back. There was a lot of traffic coming to me,
but I was still trying to do my best to pass the guy in front.

(Adam Hay-Nicholls - Metro) Do you remember roughly how many messages
you had?

MW: Probably four or five.
<end of extract>

So there is Webber's attitude to team orders when he's asked to hold
position. He's not fine with it, he got four or five calls from the
team and he ignored those calls but didn't actually give the team a
response either way.

The press conference transcript can be read at
http://www.pitpass.com/src/seasons/2011/gp/britain/fia/sunday.php

So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate
doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are
calling Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to
rethink their position.

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by Bigbir » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 04:42:15

Quote:

> So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate
> doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are
> calling Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to
> rethink their position.

As you know *** all about the conversations and agreements that have
been made between teammates since that incident you are hardly in a
position to make such an assertion.

You have to admit I'm right.

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by Edmun » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 08:06:25

Quote:


>> So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate
>> doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are calling
>> Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to rethink
>> their position.

> As you know *** all about the conversations and agreements that have
> been made between teammates since that incident you are hardly in a
> position to make such an assertion.

> You have to admit I'm right.

Hey Bird is this really you? Change of harts when it isn't about your
hero?  

Edmund

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by Diaboli » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 08:26:52


Quote:

>> So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate
>> doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are
>> calling Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to
>> rethink their position.

> As you know *** all about the conversations and agreements that have
> been made between teammates since that incident you are hardly in a
> position to make such an assertion.

Doesn't change the fact that Webber didn't follow team orders. He did the
same thing before Vettel did, so his whining is ridiculous.

If he's any good, he should prove it on the track like Vettel does.

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by CatharticF » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 08:58:13



<snip>

Quote:
> The press conference transcript can be read at
> http://www.pitpass.com/src/seasons/2011/gp/britain/fia/sunday.php

> So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate
> doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are
> calling Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to
> rethink their position.

The key points according to my understanding are firstly that Webber did
ultimately respect Team Orders. Vettel has gained a lot of benefit from
that over the years.

The second is that in this case Webber was coasting and Vettel wasn't. That
may have been the case in 2011 (I can't recall).

But the simplistic press view of it can be that the best man won and beat a
driver who was only winning on 'team orders'.

It is more correct to report it as Webber losing a win because his team
told him to slow down.

--
CatharticF1

I can't resist no crossing signs

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by Diaboli » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 09:23:28


Quote:


> <snip>

>> The press conference transcript can be read at
>> http://www.pitpass.com/src/seasons/2011/gp/britain/fia/sunday.php

>> So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate
>> doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are
>> calling Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to
>> rethink their position.

> The key points according to my understanding are firstly that Webber did
> ultimately respect Team Orders. Vettel has gained a lot of benefit from
> that over the years.

> The second is that in this case Webber was coasting and Vettel wasn't.
> That
> may have been the case in 2011 (I can't recall).

> But the simplistic press view of it can be that the best man won and beat
> a
> driver who was only winning on 'team orders'.

> It is more correct to report it as Webber losing a win because his team
> told him to slow down.

I think that's a simplistic view too. If Webber sees Vettel in his rear view
mirrors, wouldn't he speed up again?

Of what I saw, Webber put up a fight and did everything to resist being
overtaken, and Vettel did a superb overtake. To me that looked like REAL
racing.

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by Bruce Houl » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 09:38:14

Quote:



> <snip>

> > The press conference transcript can be read at

> > http://www.pitpass.com/src/seasons/2011/gp/britain/fia/sunday.php

> > So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate

> > doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are

> > calling Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to

> > rethink their position.

> The key points according to my understanding are firstly that Webber did

> ultimately respect Team Orders. Vettel has gained a lot of benefit from

> that over the years.

> The second is that in this case Webber was coasting and Vettel wasn't. That

> may have been the case in 2011 (I can't recall).

> But the simplistic press view of it can be that the best man won and beat a

> driver who was only winning on 'team orders'.

> It is more correct to report it as Webber losing a win because his team

> told him to slow down.

There is also the issue that at that last pit stop the team quite unusually gave the 2nd driver, Vettel, the undercut. Without that they wouldn't even have been close at the pit exit, Mark would have been possibly eight seconds ahead. Mark was about four seconds ahead before the pit stops, zero gap after Vettel used the undercut.

In all previous stops in Malaysia (and generally in other races too) the leading driver pits first.

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by Bobste » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 13:53:59


Quote:


> <snip>

> > The press conference transcript can be read at
> >http://www.pitpass.com/src/seasons/2011/gp/britain/fia/sunday.php

> > So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate
> > doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are
> > calling Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to
> > rethink their position.

> The key points according to my understanding are firstly that Webber did
> ultimately respect Team Orders.

Really? He didn't succeed in this particular case, but all that means
is he couldn't get past, not that he didn't defy orders.

I think we perceive more team orders and more plotting than there
really is. Sometimes we see A get called into the pits and B ends up
ahead and so we assime that B got preferential treatment from the team
when it may be that B nailed his in-lap and his out-lap and hit the
markers in the pit accurately so that the mechanics didn't have to
reposition themselves.

Quote:
> Vettel has gained a lot of benefit from
> that over the years.

I'm not so convinced that there's been THAT much help. Vettel is a
superior race driver. It's that simple.
Quote:

> The second is that in this case Webber was coasting and Vettel wasn't. That
> may have been the case in 2011 (I can't recall).

Vettel was holding position. Webber chased him down and was told by
Horner to not attack. He attacked.
Quote:

> But the simplistic press view of it can be that the best man won and beat a
> driver who was only winning on 'team orders'.

> It is more correct to report it as Webber losing a win because his team
> told him to slow down.

No. The blame was not the team's. They told BOTH drivers to slow down
and to hold positions. Vettel decided to do otherwise.

My overarching point here is that Webber has done the same in the past
and has no room to complain now.

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by Bobste » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 14:17:59


Quote:



> > <snip>

> > > The press conference transcript can be read at

> > >http://www.pitpass.com/src/seasons/2011/gp/britain/fia/sunday.php

> > > So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate

> > > doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are

> > > calling Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to

> > > rethink their position.

> > The key points according to my understanding are firstly that Webber did

> > ultimately respect Team Orders. Vettel has gained a lot of benefit from

> > that over the years.

> > The second is that in this case Webber was coasting and Vettel wasn't. That

> > may have been the case in 2011 (I can't recall).

> > But the simplistic press view of it can be that the best man won and beat a

> > driver who was only winning on 'team orders'.

> > It is more correct to report it as Webber losing a win because his team

> > told him to slow down.

> There is also the issue that at that last pit stop the team quite unusually gave the 2nd driver, Vettel, the undercut. Without that they wouldn't even have been close at the pit exit, Mark would have been possibly eight seconds ahead. Mark was about four seconds ahead before the pit stops, zero gap after Vettel used the undercut.

> In all previous stops in Malaysia (and generally in other races too) the leading driver pits first.

Which is what happened here. Webber's last pit stop was on lap 31.
Vettel pitted the next lap. Both drivers ran a three-stop strategy,
and on each stop the driver who was ahead on the road pitted first.

1st stop Vettel pitted on 5, Webber on 7. Webber then took the lead.
2nd stop Webber on 20, Vettel on 23. Webber retained the lead.
3rd stop Webber on 31, Vettel on 32. Vettel rejoined with Hamilton
between him and Webber, and only got past Hamilton on lap 38.

The two ran different strategies anyway. Vettel went for the mediums
on lap 5 and the hards on 23, switching back to mediums for his last
stint. Webber went to hards on 7 and then softs on 20. They were not
running similar strategies.

I don't believe that a team can simply play a game of the lead driver
pitting first. What if the lead driver is on hards and the other on
softs? Then the lead driver can stay out, asserting his right to pit
first and keep the other guy waiting, whilst his team mate's tyres
fall to pieces. I think what they do do is give first choice to the
lead car when there is a clash of priorities.

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by Bruce Houl » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 14:42:12

Quote:





> > > <snip>

> > > > The press conference transcript can be read at

> > > >http://www.pitpass.com/src/seasons/2011/gp/britain/fia/sunday.php

> > > > So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate

> > > > doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are

> > > > calling Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to

> > > > rethink their position.

> > > The key points according to my understanding are firstly that Webber did

> > > ultimately respect Team Orders. Vettel has gained a lot of benefit from

> > > that over the years.

> > > The second is that in this case Webber was coasting and Vettel wasn't. That

> > > may have been the case in 2011 (I can't recall).

> > > But the simplistic press view of it can be that the best man won and beat a

> > > driver who was only winning on 'team orders'.

> > > It is more correct to report it as Webber losing a win because his team

> > > told him to slow down.

> > There is also the issue that at that last pit stop the team quite unusually gave the 2nd driver, Vettel, the undercut. Without that they wouldn't even have been close at the pit exit, Mark would have been possibly eight seconds ahead. Mark was about four seconds ahead before the pit stops, zero gap after Vettel used the undercut.

> > In all previous stops in Malaysia (and generally in other races too) the leading driver pits first.

> Which is what happened here. Webber's last pit stop was on lap 31.

> Vettel pitted the next lap. Both drivers ran a three-stop strategy,

> and on each stop the driver who was ahead on the road pitted first.

> 1st stop Vettel pitted on 5, Webber on 7. Webber then took the lead.

> 2nd stop Webber on 20, Vettel on 23. Webber retained the lead.

> 3rd stop Webber on 31, Vettel on 32. Vettel rejoined with Hamilton

> between him and Webber, and only got past Hamilton on lap 38.

You appear to have forgotten Vettel pitting on lap 42 and Webber on lap 43. It's on my video of the race. Perhaps yours had ads then?

Here is Webber coming out of the pits, and Vettel steaming up having already done a lap after pitting:

http://hoult.org/bruce/malaysia44.png

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by Bobste » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 14:53:53


Quote:





> > > > <snip>

> > > > > The press conference transcript can be read at

> > > > >http://www.pitpass.com/src/seasons/2011/gp/britain/fia/sunday.php

> > > > > So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate

> > > > > doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are

> > > > > calling Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to

> > > > > rethink their position.

> > > > The key points according to my understanding are firstly that Webber did

> > > > ultimately respect Team Orders. Vettel has gained a lot of benefit from

> > > > that over the years.

> > > > The second is that in this case Webber was coasting and Vettel wasn't. That

> > > > may have been the case in 2011 (I can't recall).

> > > > But the simplistic press view of it can be that the best man won and beat a

> > > > driver who was only winning on 'team orders'.

> > > > It is more correct to report it as Webber losing a win because his team

> > > > told him to slow down.

> > > There is also the issue that at that last pit stop the team quite unusually gave the 2nd driver, Vettel, the undercut. Without that they wouldn't even have been close at the pit exit, Mark would have been possibly eight seconds ahead. Mark was about four seconds ahead before the pit stops, zero gap after Vettel used the undercut.

> > > In all previous stops in Malaysia (and generally in other races too) the leading driver pits first.

> > Which is what happened here. Webber's last pit stop was on lap 31.

> > Vettel pitted the next lap. Both drivers ran a three-stop strategy,

> > and on each stop the driver who was ahead on the road pitted first.

> > 1st stop Vettel pitted on 5, Webber on 7. Webber then took the lead.

> > 2nd stop Webber on 20, Vettel on 23. Webber retained the lead.

> > 3rd stop Webber on 31, Vettel on 32. Vettel rejoined with Hamilton

> > between him and Webber, and only got past Hamilton on lap 38.

> You appear to have forgotten Vettel pitting on lap 42 and Webber on lap 43. It's on my video of the race. Perhaps yours had ads then?

> Here is Webber coming out of the pits, and Vettel steaming up having already done a lap after pitting:

You're right, I missed that.

I don't think we can infer too much though. If the team were trying to
engineer a win for Seb then they wouldn't have given him the order to
not attack Webber.

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by geof » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 15:27:57


Quote:

> Of what I saw, Webber put up a fight and did everything to resist being
> overtaken, and Vettel did a superb overtake. To me that looked like REAL
> racing.

Did look like real racing until Webber "said *** this shit", and pulled out
wide.

geoff

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by geof » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 15:32:58


Quote:



>> Of what I saw, Webber put up a fight and did everything to resist being
>> overtaken, and Vettel did a superb overtake. To me that looked like REAL
>> racing.

> Did look like real racing until Webber "said *** this shit", and pulled
> out wide.

 ..and the P3-P4 situation would have been the same. Nico was racing hard
and Lewis was relatively 'coasting' as instructed by the team.

Hardly call that 'real racing' or a comparison of  drivers' abilities or
worthiness of the place. What Lewis said post-race seemed unnecessarily
gracious, to me.

geoff

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by AC » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 18:28:38

Quote:





>> <snip>

>>> The press conference transcript can be read at
>>> http://www.pitpass.com/src/seasons/2011/gp/britain/fia/sunday.php

>>> So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate
>>> doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are
>>> calling Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to
>>> rethink their position.

>> The key points according to my understanding are firstly that Webber did
>> ultimately respect Team Orders. Vettel has gained a lot of benefit from
>> that over the years.

>> The second is that in this case Webber was coasting and Vettel wasn't.
>> That
>> may have been the case in 2011 (I can't recall).

>> But the simplistic press view of it can be that the best man won and
>> beat a
>> driver who was only winning on 'team orders'.

>> It is more correct to report it as Webber losing a win because his team
>> told him to slow down.

> I think that's a simplistic view too. If Webber sees Vettel in his rear
> view mirrors, wouldn't he speed up again?

> Of what I saw, Webber put up a fight and did everything to resist being
> overtaken, and Vettel did a superb overtake. To me that looked like REAL
> racing.

I said it before somewhere, but ironically it was the best I have seen
Vettel drive. Sad about the circumstances, because had it been against,
say, Alonso it would have gone a long way to actually reduce the Vettel
cant over take vibe.

Detractors will argue that Vettel only pushed like that because it was
against Webber who he may well have expect to simply give up.

Dunno, but its was the most I have enjoyed watching Vettel driving.

--
AC

 
 
 

Webber and team orders

Post by Diaboli » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 19:33:10

Quote:






>>> <snip>

>>>> The press conference transcript can be read at
>>>> http://www.pitpass.com/src/seasons/2011/gp/britain/fia/sunday.php

>>>> So I think Webber has little room to complain when his team mate
>>>> doesn't comply with orders, and I think that the people who are
>>>> calling Vettel things like back stabber and arrogant maybe need to
>>>> rethink their position.

>>> The key points according to my understanding are firstly that Webber did
>>> ultimately respect Team Orders. Vettel has gained a lot of benefit from
>>> that over the years.

>>> The second is that in this case Webber was coasting and Vettel wasn't.
>>> That
>>> may have been the case in 2011 (I can't recall).

>>> But the simplistic press view of it can be that the best man won and
>>> beat a
>>> driver who was only winning on 'team orders'.

>>> It is more correct to report it as Webber losing a win because his team
>>> told him to slow down.

>> I think that's a simplistic view too. If Webber sees Vettel in his rear
>> view mirrors, wouldn't he speed up again?

>> Of what I saw, Webber put up a fight and did everything to resist being
>> overtaken, and Vettel did a superb overtake. To me that looked like REAL
>> racing.

> I said it before somewhere, but ironically it was the best I have seen
> Vettel drive. Sad about the circumstances, because had it been against,
> say, Alonso it would have gone a long way to actually reduce the Vettel
> cant over take vibe.

The Vettel haters will always hate him not matter what.

Quote:
> Detractors will argue that Vettel only pushed like that because it was
> against Webber who he may well have expect to simply give up.

> Dunno, but its was the most I have enjoyed watching Vettel driving.

It was great to watch. My question is, was Webber limited because of team
orders (engine downturn, etc), or did he really push?

I think he really pushed and Vettel was just better.