Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by Steve Glenist » Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:00:00


Nice one Damon, though you shot yourself in the foot a bit by prooving to
Walkinshaw that the car goes quicker than you've been driving it recently.
There's no hiding now. I think this is the first time an Arrows has finished
on the same lap as the winner, and at Silverstone too. Whadda the chances of
that appening, I ask ya (one for the Harry Hill fans). And what about the warm
up? What's all that about then, ey? That put a few quid on his price tag.

As for Williams/Jacques/Heinz. Dooh! I mean JV had a good qualifying session,
though Schumacher and Hakkinen made mistakes on faster laps, drove a good race
and won, but who'd put money on him winning the title? Not me. I think
Schumacher would've won that race with out JV's bad luck. He's Mr quick into
the pits, and his speed on the first couple of laps afterwards is getting to
be legendary. He'd have been out in front of JV. Would've been interesting to
see if JV wanted to fight, or settle for 2nd, the latter I suspect. Still, he
won, and didn't mouth off all weekend! So I guess there's double
congratulations there. HHF?.....sorry mate, your shite :-)

If Schuamcher can go to Williams back yard and hound them all weekend, what
chance has Williams got for the rest of the season? It's going to take some
very Italian mistakes to throw either titles this year.

Nice to see Hakkinen almost make it, I couldn't see Villeneurve getting past
Hakkinen, It's tricky enough getting past a car that's slow. Nice gesture to
the crowd too. Has he found his form again?

Wurtz seems like a really nice guy, he was fighting back tears after the race.
Nice to see someone actually apreciating their fortune for a change, speaking
of which, did JV sound relieved or what!

The interview with Williams was intersting, HHF is outta there! Funny piece on
the McLaren vs an S class road Merc. Coulthard reading the paper and drinking
tea, while the Merc drove off. Coulthard finally peeled away 1 minute 10
seconds after the Merc and took the lead going round Luffield. The difference
from the aerial camera through bridge was staggering.

Nice to see Melinda in the Jordan pits, Eddie is such a lad!

Steve

 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by Graham Rig » Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:00:00

: Nice one Damon, though you shot yourself in the foot a bit by prooving to
: Walkinshaw that the car goes quicker than you've been driving it recently.
: I think this is the first time an Arrows has finished
: on the same lap as the winner, and at Silverstone too. Whadda the chances of
: that appening, I ask ya (one for the Harry Hill fans). And what about the
warm up? What's all that about then, ey? That put a few quid on his price tag.

        The chances - not very good without race attrition Steve. Schumi
was 46 seconds ahead of jV - Damon (1:13 behind jV when he was saluting
the crowd) would have certainly been lapped. Damon was still a full
second behind 11th placed Alesi in qualifying. I think he proved that he
can drive for sure - but he also proved the arrows is a hooptie. A
hooptie that can drive much better in the rain - maybe Tom should invest
in some Weather Manipulating equipment? Bridgestone has to be
complemented for their rain tires too.

        [snip: schumacher rules the world]

: He'd have been out in front of JV. Would've been interesting to
: see if JV wanted to fight, or settle for 2nd, the latter I suspect.

        Hmmm... doubt it. Remember the best pass of the season last year?
Villeneuve going round the outside of Schumi? I'm not so sure that Schumi
would have been leading out of the pits.

        All in all - The Arrows is a heap of the not-so-good stuff. jV -
as mouthy and blond as he is - is still hungry and in the fight.

        cheers,
        graham

 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by Mark O » Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:00:00

I think TW statment were not without merit. But frankly he did promise FAR
more then he has delivered. TWR is now at the point where TW promised it would
be in Melbourne, so its understandable that Damon would lose some motivation.
But I think he is rejuevinated now, and if the car hold together look for more
points in the coming races. The German GP should have a high attrition rate,
and if teh Yamaha lasts, it could be more points.

Mark

 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by A.J. Basset » Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> As for Williams/Jacques/Heinz. Dooh! I mean JV had a good qualifying session,

um, "good"?  Try "the best".

Quote:
> though Schumacher and Hakkinen made mistakes on faster laps, drove a good race
> and won, but who'd put money on him winning the title? Not me. I think
> Schumacher would've won that race with out JV's bad luck.

1) JV was *leading* the race going into the pits.
2) Williams are supposed to have the fastest pit stops, which means on a
two-stop strategy (which MS and JV both took) JV would have cruised to
victory.

Of course in many people's minds, that MS was winning by 30 seconds was
a testament to his brilliant driving (without consideration to JV's
33-second pit stop), while JV's eventual victory was credited to "good
luck" of MS breaking down.  What a ***y double standard!

He's Mr quick into

Quote:
> the pits,

"Mr. quick into the pits" ?? The last time I checked, everyone has a
speed limit of entry and exit into the pits, so your observance that MS
is "Mr quick" makes little sense.

 and his speed on the first couple of laps afterwards is getting to

Quote:
> be legendary. He'd have been out in front of JV.

Really, you must watch more.  There is a huge difference between the
speed of your driving, and *passing* your fierce competitor in front of
you.  JV is one of the toughest passes in F1, so I severely doubt that
MS would have ever had the opportunity to pass JV if both drives had had
flawless mechanical performances.

Would've been interesting to

Quote:
> see if JV wanted to fight, or settle for 2nd, the latter I suspect.

are you saying that JV is the type of driver who's satisfied with
anything less that first place?  Really, you should watch more...\

Quote:

> Nice to see Hakkinen almost make it, I couldn't see Villeneurve getting past
> Hakkinen, It's tricky enough getting past a car that's slow.

considering that JV was lapping 2 seconds a lap faster, and Hakkinen was
having horrible blistering problems, JV would have easily made a pass to
win.

A.J.

--
---------------------------------
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Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by Dr M.J. Pickl » Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

>1) JV was *leading* the race going into the pits.
>2) Williams are supposed to have the fastest pit stops, which means on a
>two-stop strategy (which MS and JV both took) JV would have cruised to
>victory.

No, Williams have never really got to grips with slick pit stops. McLaren
and Ferrari were always the teams who could pull out the super-fast stops,
Williams have always needed fractionally longer and this has cost them
races in the past.

Quote:
>Of course in many people's minds, that MS was winning by 30 seconds was
>a testament to his brilliant driving (without consideration to JV's
>33-second pit stop), while JV's eventual victory was credited to "good
>luck" of MS breaking down.  What a ***y double standard!

>He's Mr quick into
>> the pits,

>"Mr. quick into the pits" ?? The last time I checked, everyone has a
>speed limit of entry and exit into the pits, so your observance that MS
>is "Mr quick" makes little sense.

Look again. Schumacher always has a very fast 'in lap'. Before you come to
the speed limited section of the pit lane, there is a section which can be
taken at racing speed. Schumacher is the master at getting through this as
fast as possible. If you look at the total times from leaving the
racetrack to rejoining it, Schu is always one of the fastest.

Quote:
> and his speed on the first couple of laps afterwards is getting to
>> be legendary. He'd have been out in front of JV.

>Really, you must watch more.  There is a huge difference between the
>speed of your driving, and *passing* your fierce competitor in front of
>you.  JV is one of the toughest passes in F1, so I severely doubt that
>MS would have ever had the opportunity to pass JV if both drives had had
>flawless mechanical performances.

No. By coming into the pits earlier than JV and then putting in a very
quick out lap, Schu could easily have been ahead. An overtake on the
racetrack would not have been necessary.

Quote:
>> Nice to see Hakkinen almost make it, I couldn't see Villeneurve getting past
>> Hakkinen, It's tricky enough getting past a car that's slow.
>considering that JV was lapping 2 seconds a lap faster, and Hakkinen was
>having horrible blistering problems, JV would have easily made a pass to
>win.

Well, I think JV would eventually have found a way past, but not easily.
Remember the Mercedes engine is mighty powerful and Mika is no easy guy to
pass.

cheers,

Matt
--
"give me a good guitar and you can say that my hair's a disgrace
or, just find me an open car - I'll make the speed of light outta this place"

                                                        - Roger Taylor

 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by Steve Glenist » Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

>um, "good"?  Try "the best".

Wasn't that inspired though, I mean, a tenth quicker than dodgy Frentzen. I
think he was lucky that the other two made mistakes. He didn't dominate is
what I'm saying, which makes it a good performance.

Quote:
>1) JV was *leading* the race going into the pits.
>2) Williams are supposed to have the fastest pit stops, which means on a
>two-stop strategy (which MS and JV both took) JV would have cruised to
>victory.

ha! Your joking right? When were Williams good at pit stops? They've never
been great at pit stops, they're famed for being bad in the pits.

Quote:
>Of course in many people's minds, that MS was winning by 30 seconds was
>a testament to his brilliant driving (without consideration to JV's
>33-second pit stop), while JV's eventual victory was credited to "good
>luck" of MS breaking down.  What a ***y double standard!

The testiment to MS driving (and I'm no Schumacher fan) is that he has almost
always been half a second quicker than Irvine. Also, if you watch F1 enough,
you can actually notice a great driver.

Quote:
>"Mr. quick into the pits" ?? The last time I checked, everyone has a
>speed limit of entry and exit into the pits, so your observance that MS
>is "Mr quick" makes little sense.

You don't know much about F1 do you...It has long been one of Schumachers
virtues that he can gain seconds comming into the pits. He spends all weekend
finding the limit comming into the pit lane.

Quote:
>Really, you must watch more.  There is a huge difference between the
>speed of your driving, and *passing* your fierce competitor in front of
>you.  JV is one of the toughest passes in F1, so I severely doubt that
>MS would have ever had the opportunity to pass JV if both drives had had
>flawless mechanical performances.

Like I said, as soon as JV went in, Schumacher was on it, he wouldn't have had
to pass JV, I doubt JV would have seen him till the end of the race.

Quote:
>are you saying that JV is the type of driver who's satisfied with
>anything less that first place?  Really, you should watch more...\

You keep saying that, but I can't see that your taking much in here. JV is now
very aware that to win this championship he needs points, and they don't come
from taking risks. He's into damage limitation teritory, if he's not got an
advantage at Silverstone, wait till he has. Still, if he hasn't got an
advantage at Silverstone, where is he going to have one?

Quote:
>considering that JV was lapping 2 seconds a lap faster, and Hakkinen was
>having horrible blistering problems, JV would have easily made a pass to
>win.

2 seconds? that's doubled over night. I watched Prost trying to pass Senna
once, on a Silverstone which had more opertunities. Prosts Williams was a
second and a bit quicker than Senns's McLaren. Took him about 10 laps to do
it, and then I'm sure Senna just though bollocks! if you want it that bad.
The new circuit is great to drive, but it's so quick, there just aren't any
overtaking places. Look how much quicker Mika was than Coulthard, he had to
wait till Coulthard was off the track to get by.

Steve

 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by Ross Cleme » Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:00:00


: No, Williams have never really got to grips with slick pit stops. McLaren
: and Ferrari were always the teams who could pull out the super-fast stops,
: Williams have always needed fractionally longer and this has cost them
: races in the past.

Sauber seem to be doing a pretty good job of it.

Cheers,

Ross-c

 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by Dr M.J. Pickl » Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


>: No, Williams have never really got to grips with slick pit stops. McLaren
>: and Ferrari were always the teams who could pull out the super-fast stops,
>: Williams have always needed fractionally longer and this has cost them
>: races in the past.

>Sauber seem to be doing a pretty good job of it.

Yeah, they had some very quick stops at Silverstone. Unfortunately at the
moment, their cars don't seem to have the potential to win races. Arrows
however still have a lot to learn about pit stops - both of Damon's stops
were ***and he was lucky not to lose any places because of them.

cheers,

Matt

--
"give me a good guitar and you can say that my hair's a disgrace
or, just find me an open car - I'll make the speed of light outta this place"

                                                        - Roger Taylor

 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by A.J. Basset » Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


> >Of course in many people's minds, that MS was winning by 30 seconds was
> >a testament to his brilliant driving (without consideration to JV's
> >33-second pit stop), while JV's eventual victory was credited to "good
> >luck" of MS breaking down.  What a ***y double standard!

> The testiment to MS driving (and I'm no Schumacher fan) is that he has almost
> always been half a second quicker than Irvine. Also, if you watch F1 enough,
> you can actually notice a great driver.

I would never question that MS is a great driver - he's (as much as I
hate to admit it myself) one of the best ever.  Nevertheless, MS has
never *once* passed JV on a dry track, and you'll all remember the
brilliant pass JV made on MS at the European last year.

So, that's JV 1, MS 0

A.J.

--
---------------------------------
"...many of the most innovative
advancements on the Web need to
be experienced on a Windows machine
to be fully appreciated.  As a
longtime user of the Mac and an
early fan of its simplicity and
power, I find it all a bit sad"  
        Jim Ludtke, Wired Magazine.
---------------------------------

 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by Markus Vars » Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:00:00

I
|> considering that JV was lapping 2 seconds a lap faster, and Hakkinen was
|> having horrible blistering problems, JV would have easily made a pass to
|> win.

Ave !!!

 Bull shit. Villeneuve commeneted that he would have waited till
 the closing lap and then made the move. He assumed it would have
 been difficult even considering Mikas left rear but then out
 of blue Mikas car broke and thus Jacques was able to cruise
 to an easy victory. Villeneuve never believed it to
 be easy. The track outside the proper racing line was in pretty
 bad shape. Littered with marbles and dust. Any late braking maneuver
 lunge through inside might easily have ended in the grass or sand
 with spoiled tires remember Magny Cours.

 Further more Jacques caught Mika so quiclky because Mika was held
 up by the slower Prost for such a long time. This has been
 noted in number of sources. Catching up is one thing.
 passing is another there was no way Mika was gonna give it up
 cheap.

- Oho -

 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by Steve Glenist » Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

>I would never question that MS is a great driver - he's (as much as I
>hate to admit it myself) one of the best ever.  Nevertheless, MS has
>never *once* passed JV on a dry track, and you'll all remember the
>brilliant pass JV made on MS at the European last year.

>So, that's JV 1, MS 0

>A.J.

Arrrhh, that's sorted it then. JV is much better than Schuamcher. Thank God
for that, I thought I was loosing the plot. Then again, isn't MS a double
World Champion?

So I guess it's MS 2, JV 0. I'll wager it's 3-0 by the end of the season too.

Steve

Steve

 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by Michael Hil » Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


> >I would never question that MS is a great driver - he's (as much as I
> >hate to admit it myself) one of the best ever.  Nevertheless, MS has
> >never *once* passed JV on a dry track, and you'll all remember the
> >brilliant pass JV made on MS at the European last year.

> >So, that's JV 1, MS 0

> >A.J.

Give that man the title now !!!!!!!.  What a bollox useless statistic -
I'll assume you're not counting grid starts.  Also, JV's move on Schumi
was very good and well executed, but remember the extra oomph the
Williams had over the Ferrari in '96.  It was probably the only car that
_could_ pull off such a manouver, and the '96 Ferrari could do nothing
to stop it.

Never once on the dry ?  OK, let's talk about the wet instead :-)  Most
enjoyable at Monaco '97 as Schumi _lapped_ JV as the twit was sliding
all over the camp even on wet tires.  Did JV *ever* lap Schumi in any
race ?  Another bollox useless statistic, but it sure as hell beats
yours.

Quote:
> Arrrhh, that's sorted it then. JV is much better than Schuamcher. Thank God
> for that, I thought I was loosing the plot. Then again, isn't MS a double
> World Champion?

> So I guess it's MS 2, JV 0. I'll wager it's 3-0 by the end of the season too.

Ditto.  I always did think #1 looked good on red....:)

Quote:
> Steve

--Michael
 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by A.J. Basset » Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


> >I would never question that MS is a great driver - he's (as much as I
> >hate to admit it myself) one of the best ever.  Nevertheless, MS has
> >never *once* passed JV on a dry track, and you'll all remember the
> >brilliant pass JV made on MS at the European last year.

> >So, that's JV 1, MS 0

> >A.J.

> Arrrhh, that's sorted it then. JV is much better than Schuamcher. Thank God
> for that, I thought I was loosing the plot. Then again, isn't MS a double
> World Champion?

> So I guess it's MS 2, JV 0. I'll wager it's 3-0 by the end of the season too.

> Steve

Steve, this is hardly logical. JV has only been driving F1 for a season
plus 10 races.  MS didn't win the championship last year, he's been on
the F1 circuit for quite a while, so if you want to score it by
championships, it's:

MS 0, JV 0

and by season's end,

MS 0, JV 1

A.J.

 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by Steve Roge » Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> So, that's JV 1, MS 0

This is begging for someone to work out the all-time knock-out of
dry-track passes and post it in rec.autos.sport.info as some new heroic
type of Super League.  Does the data exist in accessible enough form?
--
Steve Rogers http://www.thebeast.demon.co.uk

 
 
 

Hill makes his point, Schu prooves his point

Post by Steve Roge » Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> JV is now very aware that to win this championship he needs points, and
> they don't come from taking risks.

No, and especially because a Williams is usually far enough ahead not to
need to.
--
Steve Rogers http://www.thebeast.demon.co.uk