Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by Brian Lawrenc » Mon, 27 Mar 2006 22:52:18


The FIA have confirmed that Max Mosley met with representatives from
Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth at Ferrari's Maranello HQ on Friday. They
apparently agreed on an "engine freeze" covering the 2008-12 seasons.
The proposals will now be put to the other teams/engine suppliers

www.autosport.com

--

Brian Lawrence

Wantage, Oxfordshire, UK

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by Paul Harma » Tue, 28 Mar 2006 17:43:34


Quote:
>     Heh. For a moment I read that as "We're the top of the feild, so if
> everyone else could please stop developing for a few years that'd be
> good."

But that's exactly what it *is*.

    Paul

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by John Smit » Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:49:59


Quote:


>>     Heh. For a moment I read that as "We're the top of the feild, so if
>> everyone else could please stop developing for a few years that'd be
>> good."

> But that's exactly what it *is*.

>    Paul

Then it should be like CART with one engine manufacturer for all the teams..
This is the most ridiculous idea Max has had..

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by M S » Wed, 29 Mar 2006 01:02:28

Quote:
> The FIA have confirmed that Max Mosley met with representatives from
> Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth at Ferrari's Maranello HQ on Friday. They
> apparently agreed on an "engine freeze" covering the 2008-12 seasons.
> The proposals will now be put to the other teams/engine suppliers

> www.autosport.com

There is a way around it.
Here goes:

An engine manufacturer sets up 10 companies. The first of them produces
engines. Keeps some in store, and sells the design to next company, which
develops the an upgrade, keeps some in store, sells the design to next
company and so on. Then comes a Formula 1 team and signs an engine supplier
for two GP, every two GP.

--
Matt Spych (Poland)

If you want to e-mail me click below:
http://cerbermail.com/?Y7fHuj9gyI

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by matthew.w.. » Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:14:06

I don't know how this could possibly work. What exactly would a freeze
entail? No development work at all? What if a team finds that there is
a persistent problem such as the piston ring (or so I think it was)
failure that afflicted the Ferrari engines for the past two races. Or
perhaps the rule implies that there will be no changes regarding engine
rules? Any thoughts?

Oh, and I think the FIA is one of the worst governed bodies. At least
they got qualifying right. But as they say, give a roomful of monkeys
enough time, and they'll produce Shakespeare...

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by Pete » Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:04:27


Quote:
>I don't know how this could possibly work. What exactly would a freeze
> entail? No development work at all? What if a team finds that there is
> a persistent problem such as the piston ring (or so I think it was)
> failure that afflicted the Ferrari engines for the past two races. Or
> perhaps the rule implies that there will be no changes regarding engine
> rules? Any thoughts?

> Oh, and I think the FIA is one of the worst governed bodies. At least
> they got qualifying right. But as they say, give a roomful of monkeys
> enough time, and they'll produce Shakespeare...

To be or not to nbmhatsfe!

Right!

Peter R.

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by Bob Duber » Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:30:26

Quote:

> The FIA have confirmed that Max Mosley met with representatives from
> Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth at Ferrari's Maranello HQ on Friday. They
> apparently agreed on an "engine freeze" covering the 2008-12 seasons.
> The proposals will now be put to the other teams/engine suppliers

I can't see it.

Firstly what happens to a new manufacturer who wants to enter F1? How
do you stop them using the latest and greatest of everything and saying
"OK,.. we won't develop THAT"?

And then how do you police this? Are these manufacturers going to lodge
blueprints with some envigilating body? And, this being F1 after all,
what tolerance will you allow? Or are we going to say "sorry Mr Todt,
but the Ferrari's pistons were 0.01 mm too wide"?

More likely it's a political move. The three parties can say "well WE
were serious about cost cutting" even though they knew that this
suggestion would never fly.

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by Brian Lawrenc » Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:47:01

Quote:

>I don't know how this could possibly work. What exactly would a freeze
> entail? No development work at all?

Engines have to be homologated by June 2006. Thereafter no changes are
permitted unless they can be shown to be cost-saving or fixing known
problems (IE reliability). Any change which gives a performance improvement
would not be accepted.

Quote:
> What if a team finds that there is
> a persistent problem such as the piston ring (or so I think it was)
> failure that afflicted the Ferrari engines for the past two races. Or
> perhaps the rule implies that there will be no changes regarding engine
> rules? Any thoughts?

This would be fixing a problem (reliability) and would be permitted.

Engine manufacturers would also be allowed to change certain things on an
annual basis (before January 1 each year). Things such as ports, plugs,
valves, piston crowns, nozzles, etc.

--

Brian

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by Brian Lawrenc » Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:52:28

Quote:


>> The FIA have confirmed that Max Mosley met with representatives from
>> Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth at Ferrari's Maranello HQ on Friday. They
>> apparently agreed on an "engine freeze" covering the 2008-12 seasons.
>> The proposals will now be put to the other teams/engine suppliers

> I can't see it.

> Firstly what happens to a new manufacturer who wants to enter F1? How
> do you stop them using the latest and greatest of everything and saying
> "OK,.. we won't develop THAT"?

The FIA won't accept new engines that are more powerful than the existing
engines.

Quote:
> And then how do you police this? Are these manufacturers going to lodge
> blueprints with some envigilating body? And, this being F1 after all,
> what tolerance will you allow? Or are we going to say "sorry Mr Todt,
> but the Ferrari's pistons were 0.01 mm too wide"?

They have to lodge engines with the FIA - initially by June 1 this year,
and thereafter on or before January 1 each year. Changes between those
times may be permitted but a new engine would have to be lodged with the
FIA before the engine could be used. Scrutineering would verify that the
engines match the example lodged with the FIA.
Quote:
> More likely it's a political move. The three parties can say "well WE
> were serious about cost cutting" even though they knew that this
> suggestion would never fly.

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by Paul Harma » Wed, 29 Mar 2006 17:05:17


Quote:
> More likely it's a political move. The three parties can say "well WE
> were serious about cost cutting" even though they knew that this
> suggestion would never fly.

Fixing the engine supply to a set number of known engines is not going to
cut costs. Market forces will drive *up* the cost of the best engine,
because only 2 teams can be supplied by each engine manufacturer.

How much would *you* pay for the best engine, knowing it's guaranteed to be
the best for the next 3 to 5 years?

    Paul

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by Bob Duber » Wed, 29 Mar 2006 17:30:58

Quote:

> They have to lodge engines with the FIA - initially by June 1 this year,
> and thereafter on or before January 1 each year. Changes between those
> times may be permitted but a new engine would have to be lodged with the
> FIA before the engine could be used. Scrutineering would verify that the
> engines match the example lodged with the FIA.

Ah! So not an outright "freeze", just an enforced slowing of
development.
 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by HooDooWitc » Wed, 29 Mar 2006 18:18:21

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 06:47:01 +0100, "Brian Lawrence"

Quote:


>>I don't know how this could possibly work. What exactly would a freeze
>> entail? No development work at all?

>Engines have to be homologated by June 2006. Thereafter no changes are
>permitted unless they can be shown to be cost-saving or fixing known
>problems (IE reliability). Any change which gives a performance improvement
>would not be accepted.

>> What if a team finds that there is
>> a persistent problem such as the piston ring (or so I think it was)
>> failure that afflicted the Ferrari engines for the past two races. Or
>> perhaps the rule implies that there will be no changes regarding engine
>> rules? Any thoughts?

>This would be fixing a problem (reliability) and would be permitted.

>Engine manufacturers would also be allowed to change certain things on an
>annual basis (before January 1 each year). Things such as ports, plugs,
>valves, piston crowns, nozzles, etc.

But yet again, all this is difficult to police. In fixing a known
problem, the teams would be able to push the engine harder [until it
breaks elsewhere], ergo, there's a performance increase.

What's wrong with simply specifying engine displacement and materials
(either banned or allowed) and having a one engine per weekend rule?
If it breaks on Friday or Saturday, back you go, x places for each
change.

--
HooDooWitch

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by Brian Lawrenc » Wed, 29 Mar 2006 21:29:53

Quote:

> On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 06:52:28 +0100, "Brian Lawrence"

>>> Firstly what happens to a new manufacturer who wants to enter F1? How
>>> do you stop them using the latest and greatest of everything and saying
>>> "OK,.. we won't develop THAT"?

>>The FIA won't accept new engines that are more powerful than the existing
>>engines.

> I am not sure that that is TOTALLY and EXACTLY the case. Are you
> saying that because the Cosworth is reportedly 20 bhp higher than
> Ferrari's best, that Ferrari would be willing to live with that for
> over 3 years? I think there is something missing from what we
> currently know.

I was talking of "new manufacturer(s) who want to enter F1". If the existing
engines were producing outputs say within a range of 100 bhp, then the FIA
would not allow a new manufacturer to enter with an engine that was
significantly outside that range.

Would Ferrari live with a 20 bhp deficit for FIVE years (not three)? Well,
they would not be able to introduce changes designed to increase power,
but changes to prolong engine life or reduce costs might have an effect
on power too, and those may be permitted at the discretion of the FIA.
The permitted changes are restricted to certain components though - plugs,
trumpets, valves, piston heads, etc., with restrictions on the precise
changes.

Whether these new regs. are ever introduced is debateable though - propose
something extreme then compromise on something less extreme.

--

Brian

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by fort » Thu, 30 Mar 2006 00:31:25

Quote:

> Would Ferrari live with a 20 bhp deficit for FIVE years (not three)? Well,
> they would not be able to introduce changes designed to increase power,
> but changes to prolong engine life or reduce costs might have an effect
> on power too, and those may be permitted at the discretion of the FIA.
> The permitted changes are restricted to certain components though - plugs,
> trumpets, valves, piston heads, etc., with restrictions on the precise
> changes.

> Whether these new regs. are ever introduced is debateable though - propose
> something extreme then compromise on something less extreme.

...and thus the BMIA *** theory thickens. ;-p

--
There's a fine line between not listening and not caring.
I like to think that I walk that line every day of my life.

-Forty

 
 
 

Ferrari, Renault & Cosworth agree "engine freeze" for 2008-12?

Post by tussoc » Thu, 30 Mar 2006 00:41:25

Quote:


>> Engine manufacturers would also be allowed to change certain things on an
>> annual basis (before January 1 each year). Things such as ports, plugs,
>> valves, piston crowns, nozzles, etc.

> But yet again, all this is difficult to police. In fixing a known
> problem, the teams would be able to push the engine harder [until it
> breaks elsewhere], ergo, there's a performance increase.

     Cosworth: "Our spec is a 30000 RPM, 1200 BHP engine, with some
small reliability issues that require us to run under spec for a bit."

     The small reliability issue being the 0.3 second lifespan, just
short of letting it spin up to the theoretical peak.

     Cosworth: "Honest, it _really is_ a 30000 RPM engine, we just run
it at 19000 to make it last longer until all the problems are fixed."

Quote:
> What's wrong with simply specifying engine displacement and materials
> (either banned or allowed) and having a one engine per weekend rule?
> If it breaks on Friday or Saturday, back you go, x places for each
> change.

     Championship points only consider your best four (or eight, or
nine***, whatever) race engines for the year. Engines raced in more
than one event accumulate all awarded points. Use as many as you like,
change whenever you like, but you must race on the engine qualified with
or start at the back of the grid.
     Ban ludicrous materials (like the gold plating).

     Done. As always, F1 teams will spend all their money, and the money
will always go to the top few (unless the FIA run a proper wealth
distribution scheme with the TV money).

--
     tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.