Shane Warne vs. India

Shane Warne vs. India

Post by Ramdas Chand » Sun, 26 Feb 1995 05:03:37


So, the "Great" Shane Warne finally played India!  And if what I'm told is right, he got "mildly" thrashed for 61 runs and no wickets.  Hope that puts Warne in the right perspective to the numerous fans on the net who think Warne is something out of this world.  Frankly, I think Qadir and Chandra were by far the better bowlers, and they bowled against some of the best players of spin in the world.  A couple of series against India, Pakistan, and even Sri Lanka will put Warne in the right perspective.  No d
oubt the guy is good, but not as good as the many people who worship him make him out to be.

It would be interesting if someone could post Warne's statistics against each country, particularly India and Pakistan.

And now that India is out of the tournament, there will be the customary calls for sacking Azhar, along with the numerous faults he has.  Its a pity how conveniently people ignore the fact that when we really needed to win, against RSA, after we lost to NZ, no one, I repeat NO ONE lived up to expectations.  Of course, Azhar will be the first one to be picked on, more so by my dear friend Ravi.  By his oft repeated criteria of course, we have to discount the scores that Manjrekar and Kambli and SRT scored i
n the win against Australia, because they came at a time when "it did not matter".  So what if they played well and we won, uh?  Lets face it, at any given point in time, only one player will click for India and no more than one.  If it is a good day, we win, else we lose.  And I don't think it is fair to pick out any single player for the loss in this series.

And to close things, I for one am happy to see Manjrekar back, even though it was for a game that "did not matter".  Though I'd love to see him at No. 3.

RD

 
 
 

Shane Warne vs. India

Post by Jaffer H Dharam » Mon, 27 Feb 1995 02:20:13



Quote:
> So, the "Great" Shane Warne finally played India!  And if what I'm told is
>  right, he got "mildly" thrashed for 61 runs and no wickets.  Hope that puts
>  Warne in the right perspective to the numerous fans on the net who think Warne
>  is something out of this world.  Frankly, I think Qadir and Chandra were by
>  far the better bowlers, and they bowled against some of the best players of
>  spin in the world.  A couple of series against India, Pakistan, and even Sri
>  Lanka will put Warne in the right perspective.
> oubt the guy is good, but not as good as the many people who worship him make
>  him out to be.

  (Stuff deleted)

> RD

I am one of those who think Shane is the best. But maybe unlike the rest I
have always known that his run of great matches could not last forever.
He had so himself that he took one match at and time a would not be surprised
if  he had a run of bad matches.
 He is a `shock' bowler. Meaning once a country has faced him they can learn
how to play him.Take Graham Thorpe for example. Anyway Indians are born playing
spinners, so it's not really that surprising that he got `MILDLY' thrashed.
 He's just going through a bit of a bad patch. He'll be better in the
West Indies, you'll see.
 --
Kirren                              ************
                                    WARNE 4 EVER
                                   **************

 
 
 

Shane Warne vs. India

Post by Brendan Jon » Tue, 28 Feb 1995 07:54:01

Quote:

> So, the "Great" Shane Warne finally played India!

Where have you been for the past 3 Aus/India ODIs?

Quote:
> he got mildly thrashed for 61 runs and no wickets.  Hope that puts Warne
> in the right perspective to the numerous fans on the net who think Warne
> is something out of this world.

Hansie Cronje has "thrashed" Warne just as much as India has, and his luck
at doing so didn't last.  Perhaps you didn't hear how Warne was being
written off after Hansie thumped him in the first 3 ODIs in South Africa in
1993.  Australia have now won five ODIs against South Africa in succession,
Warne is causing them as many problems as ever.

And in any event, India has "thrashed" Warne in a grand total of six
overs, two overs in each of the three ODIs, on one of those occasions
Warne was bowling inside the first 15 overs (i.e. only two men out),
and on another occasion it was in the final "slog" overs.  The only two
Indian batsmen to successfully "thump" Warne are Tendulkar and Kambli.

For the other 23 overs, and to the other Indian batsmen, Warne has
bowled very well.  So don't get too e***d just yet.

Quote:
> A couple of series against India, Pakistan, and even Sri Lanka will put
> Warne in the right perspective.

Indeed it will.  A handful of Tests and ODIs is not sufficient either
way.

Quote:
> No doubt the guy is good, but not as good as the many people who worship
> him make him out to be.

Yeah, Warne's a hack, can't spin his way out of a tumble dryer.

Quote:
> It would be interesting if someone could post Warne's statistics against
> each country, particularly India and Pakistan.

TEST MATCHES

v INDIA (1 match - 1991/92 in Australia; Debut)

O       M       R       W       5WI     B-B     AVG     RPO     S/R
68.0    9       228     1       0       1-150   228.00  3.35    408.00

v SRI LANKA (2 matches - 1992 in Sri Lanka)

O       M       R       W       5WI     B-B     AVG     RPO     S.R
38.2    8       158     3       0       3-11    52.67   4.14    76.33

v PAKISTAN (3 matches - 1994 in Pakistan)

O       M       R       W       5WI     B-B     AVG     RPO     S/R
181.4   50      504     18      2       6-136   28.00   2.77    60.56

ONE-DAY INTERNATIONALS

v INDIA (3 matches)

O       M       R       W       5WI     B-B     AVG     RPO     S/R
29      1       154     4       0       2-40    38.50   5.31    43.50

v PAKISTAN (4 matches)

O       M       R       W       5WI     B-B     AVG     RPO     S/R
39      5       137     4       0       3-29    34.25   3.51    58.50

v SRI LANKA (2 matches)

O       M       R       W       5WI     B-B     AVG     RPO     S/R
18      1       56      5       0       3-29    11.20   3.11    21.60

--
Brendan Jones          | WWW  : http://SportToday.org/~brendan/

Macquarie University   | Voice: +61 2 850 9072          | Only 2027 days to go
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Shane Warne vs. India

Post by Ravi N Arunkundr » Wed, 01 Mar 1995 03:48:54

Quote:

>I am one of those who think Shane is the best. But maybe unlike the rest I
>have always known that his run of great matches could not last forever.

He has NOT had ONE good match against India, leave alone 'Forever'.

Quote:
>He had so himself that he took one match at and time a would not be surprised
>if  he had a run of bad matches.

Versus India, Its been only 'Bad Matches'. Next Subject.

Quote:
> He is a `shock' bowler.

Its always a Shock when your best bowler is mauled everytime he bowls
to the Indians.

Quote:
>Meaning once a country has faced him they can learn
>how to play him.Take Graham Thorpe for example.

First time it was RJS and SRT who faced him and gave the third degree
- No learning required (it was Warne's Debut - we'll let it pass).
The next tiem Kambli faced him for the first time and yes 3 rd degree
again. In Sri Lanka Azhar and SRT handed it to him. In Dunedin it was
Prabhakar. India seems to have lots of Graham Thorpes...(pity they
dont seem to play like Thorpe against Merv Hughes and McDermott).

Quote:
>Anyway Indians are born playing spinners, so it's not really that
>surprising that he got `MILDLY' thrashed.

I guess that was exactly the point the Point some of us wanted to make
all this while. Thanks. - QED.

Quote:
> He's just going through a bit of a bad patch. He'll be better in the
>West Indies, you'll see.
>                                    WARNE 4 EVER
>                                   *************

Sure, actually a lot of the above was a load of kidding (and my
frequent unsuccesfull bouts with the LISP compiler breaking out...)

Warne is obviously a fine bowler and probably the best spinner in the
business now. He has still way to go before he can be equated with the
likes of C V Grimmet, Gibbs and Chandrasekhar or for that matter even
Bill O' Reilly. Btw, just because he had only a 'fairly successful
tour' of Pak and misery at the hands of Indians, is not in itself a
reason to downgrade the man's prodigious feats of late.  He has
wrecked the batting sides of Eng., NZ, WI, SA in the past and will do
so again. Besides on a spinning wicket in the sub-continent, he might
still pull one back for the Aussies and leave me wishing that I hadn't
written a lot of this stuff.

As for today, its Indian Curry on the house...

ravi (who still thinks Prassanna was unmatched as a Spinner)

 
 
 

Shane Warne vs. India

Post by Ramdas Chand » Fri, 03 Mar 1995 04:40:56

Quote:

>Where have you been for the past 3 Aus/India ODIs?

Been here and there, but I've seen posted on this net a number of messages that discounted the earlier efforts of Warne against India, saying that it was too early in his career and he had not matured and now that he has matured, he is a different proposition, and so on.  So it was just to highlight the fact that he is now at the peak of his career coming off a wrecking of England that I chose my words.

Quote:
>And in any event, India has "thrashed" Warne in a grand total of six
>overs, two overs in each of the three ODIs, on one of those occasions
>Warne was bowling inside the first 15 overs (i.e. only two men out),
>and on another occasion it was in the final "slog" overs.  The only two
>Indian batsmen to successfully "thump" Warne are Tendulkar and Kambli.

And counting out the overs he got hit in, omitting the batsmen who hit him, removing the overs in which the field wasn't set properly from the record, and maybe a few overs in which the ball slipped out of his hand, I have no doubt that Warne is simply the greatest bowler ever.  Borrowing an expression from a colorful nettor, good ol' ravi, even my grandmother's bowling statistics would look good if I added all these discounts!

Quote:
>For the other 23 overs, and to the other Indian batsmen, Warne has

                                   ^^^^^^^^^^
Like Prabhakar who opened the innings for India, but bats at no. 6 or 7 even in domestic cricket.  

Quote:
>bowled well....

Let's face it, my friend.  the guy is good, but it needs an extra-ordinary spinner to bowl to the Indians and Pakistanis.  I maintain that Qadir and for some time even Iqbal Quasim were in that class, controlling the likes of Vishy and Gavaskar.
Of course, when it comes to pace, ...I think I've got to go now.  Bye!!!!
 
 
 

Shane Warne vs. India

Post by Ambrish Sundar » Sat, 04 Mar 1995 01:02:40

I would tend to agree with Bharat's opinion in this regard. When I had raised
the question of Warne's performance against India, in my posting dealing with
a few questions after the India - Aus ODI, I had asked whether it was a case of
Warne fading out or was it a case of the lull before the storm? As Bharat has
very rightly pointed out, spinners like Prasanna and Bedi were hammered during
different times in their careers. This does not take anything away from their
overall class. Personally I would still like to wait and watch Warne's bowling
performances, esp. against India (come 1996), Pakistan (despite the recent
Aus - Pak Test series), and maybe Sri Lanka. The coming series against the
Windies might also throw new light on Warne's bowling. Though I am not trying
to draw exact parallels, it will be interesting to watch Lara play Warne, given
the fact that Kambli, another southpaw, has fared pretty well against Warne,
albeit in ODI's. What will also be interesting to watch is the battle between
Adams and Warne, given Adams' excellent performances on Indian soil, against
Indian spinners, in the recently concluded WI tour of India. With Richardson
making his way back to the WI team, it is going to be a real battle of wits,
given Richie's experience and Warne's abilities to turn the ball prodigiously.

IMHO, it is too early to pass judgement  on Warne, either too positively, or
too negatively. I know my question on Warne's performance against India in the
recent ODI did raise a lot of hullaballoo, but I guess a lot many netters,
despite all their good intentions, failed to see the other part of the question,
i.e., whether it was only the lull before the storm ?

Here's hoping for some real entertaining cricket in the Australia - WI Test and
ODI series.

Regards


 
 
 

Shane Warne vs. India

Post by R. Bharat R » Sat, 04 Mar 1995 00:20:14

Quote:

>Let's face it, my friend.  the guy is good, but it needs an
>extra-ordinary spinner to bowl to the Indians and Pakistanis.  I
>maintain that Qadir and for some time even Iqbal Quasim were in that
>class, controlling the likes of Vishy and Gavaskar.

Regardless of how good Warne is or is not (I think he is the goods,
personally), being thumped does not automatically mean someone is a
bad bowler -- especially a spinner.  Few would argue that Prasanna and
Bedi are two of the greatest spinners ever; and yet, they individually
and collectively been hammered all over the field at many different
stages of their career....

Its part of the deal, especially for a spinner.  Every once in a while
you get hammered, and spinners have to deal with that, if they are to
flourish...

All I'm saying, just 'coz he got hit around doesn't mean much.

At the same time, nor does it say that he will dominate the Indians.
For that, we have to wait until 96..

Bharat
--

Siemens Corporate Research, 755 College Road East,
Princeton, NJ 08540, Phones: (609)734-6531(O) (609)734-6565(F)
<Above opinions are exclusively the author's, and don't represent SCR>

 
 
 

Shane Warne vs. India

Post by Spaceman Spif » Sat, 04 Mar 1995 18:36:11


(Brendan Jones) says:
Quote:

>TESTS v PAKISTAN (3 matches - 1994 in Pakistan)

>O       M       R       W       5WI     B-B     AVG     RPO     S/R
>181.4   50      504     18      2       6-136   28.00   2.77    60.56

>Hmm, 18 wickets in a 3-test series, 5WI twice, avg of 28.0, a very
>low RPO and an excellent strike rate of a wicket every 10 overs.

check out the result of the 1st test and the pakistani scores in the 2nd &
3rd tests, then get back to me.
warne will get his wickets against india, but he won't terrorize them like
he did england, NZ & SA. I think the WI are going to put a pretty big dent
in his mystique. let's see.

Stay cool,
Spaceman Spiff

----------------------------------------------------------------------
You may be Saturday's child, all alone
and moving with a tinge of grace
You may be a cloud in the varying crowd
or just another pretty face.

 
 
 

Shane Warne vs. India

Post by Pramod Kos » Sun, 05 Mar 1995 02:36:24



Quote:

>(Brendan Jones) says:

>>TESTS v PAKISTAN (3 matches - 1994 in Pakistan)

>>O       M       R       W       5WI     B-B     AVG     RPO     S/R
>>181.4   50      504     18      2       6-136   28.00   2.77    60.56

>>Hmm, 18 wickets in a 3-test series, 5WI twice, avg of 28.0, a very
>>low RPO and an excellent strike rate of a wicket every 10 overs.

>check out the result of the 1st test and the pakistani scores in the 2nd &
>3rd tests, then get back to me.
>warne will get his wickets against india, but he won't terrorize them like
>he did england, NZ & SA. I think the WI are going to put a pretty big dent
>in his mystique. let's see.

This is silly , this constant harping by the Aussies that Warne is the best
ever spinner. After all Warne has played Pakistan and India and for all his
supposed mastery of spin he has not won a game for the Aussies against these
countries. So what if he has a good haul against the WI at home on a
helpfull spinning wicket, Hirwani had one too , yet when Hirwani travelled
to the WI he couldn't make a dent in the WI batting line up on those un
helpfull WI'ian wickets. Yes , Warne did play well against the English team,
but the very same team got beaten by a big margin when they toured India and
SriLanka mainly because they couln't play spin for nuts. Let Warne win a
game for the Aussies against either WI or Pakistan and then we can rank him
as probably the best bowler in the world right now. Don't give the Delloits
( hope the spelling is right ) as an indication that he is the best ,
because if you go by by that same criterian , India is the best odi side,
and if we do lose to lowly teams such as Australia , it is just that India
had an off day that day.

Pramod Koshy.

 
 
 

Shane Warne vs. India

Post by Rick Ey » Sun, 05 Mar 1995 15:38:40

In a message of 03 Mar 95 Brendan Jones wrote to All:

 BJ> Warne at the peak of his career?  I don't think so.  Leg-spinners
 BJ> aren't supposed to perfect their art until they are mid 30s.  Warne is
 BJ> what, 24?

On the other side of that coin is Hirwani and Sivaramakrishnan, who were both
spent forces as Test-standard leg-spinners by the time they were 22.

And you can probably add Mushtaq Ahmed to that list.   Warne, in any case,
seems to be a class way above any of those three bowlers in temperament.


|  Today In Cricket  http://www.ozemail.com.au/~reyre/todayindex.html |

 
 
 

Shane Warne vs. India

Post by Brendan Jon » Sat, 04 Mar 1995 09:43:55

Quote:

> So it was just to highlight the fact that he is now at the peak of his
> career

Warne at the peak of his career?  I don't think so.  Leg-spinners aren't
supposed to perfect their art until they are mid 30s.  Warne is what, 24?

Quote:
> And counting out the overs he got hit in, omitting the batsmen who hit him,
> removing the overs in which the field wasn't set properly from the record,
> and maybe a few overs in which the ball slipped out of his hand, I have no
> doubt that Warne is simply the greatest bowler ever.

The point is many Indian fans are dismissing Warne as a threat on the
basis of a grand total of six overs in which he got carted in one-day
matches.  Who cares if Warne bowled 2-18 off his first 8 overs v India in
Sharjah, getting hit for 22 off the last 2 is all that seems to matter
to you guys.

Well, if you want to make a judgment on the basis of that sample size,
more fool you.

I repeat again, if you took a sample size of 3 conscutive ODIs, say
Aus v SAf in SAf in 1993, you'd conclude Warne isn't a threat to SAf
and Hansie Cronje can cart Warne at will.  History has proven that
sample size to be an extremely poor indicator of Warne's ability against
South Africa.  And so it will be against India, too.

Quote:
> Let's face it, my friend.  The guy is good, but it needs an extra-ordinary
> spinner to bowl to the Indians and Pakistanis.

Warne's only real test against India or Pakistan so far has been the
Pakistan Test series:

TESTS v PAKISTAN (3 matches - 1994 in Pakistan)

O       M       R       W       5WI     B-B     AVG     RPO     S/R
181.4   50      504     18      2       6-136   28.00   2.77    60.56

Hmm, 18 wickets in a 3-test series, 5WI twice, avg of 28.0, a very
low RPO and an excellent strike rate of a wicket every 10 overs.

Apparently 180 overs against Pakistan in Tests isn't enough to support
Warne's claim to being more than a very good spinner, but six overs
against India in ODIs is apparently enough to say Warne can't bowl to Indians.

Go figure.

--
Brendan Jones          | WWW  : http://www.mpce.mq.edu.au/~brendan/

Macquarie University   | Voice: +61 2 850 9072          | Only 2023 days to go
NSW 2109  AUSTRALIA    | Fax  : +61 2 850 9128          | SYDNEY 2000 OLYMPICS

 
 
 

Shane Warne vs. India

Post by Ravi N Arunkundr » Mon, 06 Mar 1995 07:05:37

Quote:

>Apparently 180 overs against Pakistan in Tests isn't enough to support
>Warne's claim to being more than a very good spinner, but six overs
>against India in ODIs is apparently enough to say Warne can't bowl to Indians.
>Go figure.

What's that again ? 6 overs did you say ? I thought he bowled 29
actually. 29 seems to have shrunk to 6.0 mysteriously.  If you
argument is that Warne bowled 29 but got hit in just 6 of them, sure
most good bowlers who have a bad day, just give away big runs in 20 %
of the bowling. It takes an extra-ordinarly poor bowler to get hit
every time he gets his arm over. The argument that Warne was not hit
all the time but was badly mauled in just 6 overs, is not worth the
paper its written on. Most bowlers give 2 /3 an over for 6-7 overs and
get carted in 2 or 3 overs ending in a run rate of 4 to 4.5.

Bedi got hit by Imran and Miandad in just one over for 18 runs, India
lost the Karachi (Lahore ?) test in that one over. Chetan Sharma got
caned in his last two overs with a 6 off the last ball. Sure India
lost that ODI in Sharjah. If I were Sharma or Bedi, I'd doff a hat off
to the Miandads and the Imrans and move on. Warne did just that when
he said he found it difficult to bowl to the Indians... As for 29 to 6
well, i've heard some ripe ones before, but this is good...Keep em
coming !

ravi

 
 
 

Shane Warne vs. India

Post by Stephen Deva » Tue, 07 Mar 1995 20:54:12


Quote:
Rajan) writes:

>     There is an interesting article on this subject in the March
>Cricketer. Robert Brooke looks at the statistics of all spinners who
>have 100+ Test wickets in the post-WW II era. He breaks down each
>player's career into the first 10, next 10, next 10, etc. Tests, and
>also by age: Under 26, 26-30, and overall.
>     The spinners included in this study are:
>England: D. Allen, P. Edmonds, J. Emburey, R. Illingworth, J. Laker,
>G. Lock, F. Titmus. D. Underwood, J. Wardle.
>Australia: R. Benaud, A. Mallett, B. Yardley, S. Warne
>South Africa: H. Tayfield
>West Indies: L. Gibbs, S. Ramadhin, A. Valentine
>New Zealand: J. Bracewell
>India: B. Bedi, B. Chandrasekhar, D. DOshi, S. Gupte,
>M. Mankad. E. Prasanna, R. Shastri, S. Venkatraghavan, S. Yadav
>Pakistan: A. Qadir, I. Alam, I. Qasim

>     Warne is currently under (or just over?) 26. He has taken more
>wickets before his 26th birthday than any other spinner on that
>list. But the author concludes:

>"   ....However, there is nothing in the records to suggest that he
>will continue to improve, in fact there is much to suggest he will
>*not* (authors's italics).
>     A majority of spinners find that their form and effectiveness
>decline after 30 matches, whatever their age, while success at an
>early eage more often than not portends an early decline...In fact,
>after studying the figures, I hope the editor will allow me to remark
>that the signs suggest we might have seen the best of Shane Warne!"

Fascinating!  I wonder, are both wrist and finger spinners
affected the same?  If so, that would strongly suggest that the effect
is due to batsmen adjusting rather than the spinner declining in
ability.

Under any circumstances, another argument for pace over spin.  

Fraternally in cricket,

Steve the Bajan