England pushing for a ban on Wasim

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Shehzad H » Fri, 23 Jun 2000 04:00:00


The article suggests that England is pushing for a two year ban on
Wasim and Mushie. If Justice Qayyum had imposed the bans I wouldn't
have any problem at all. But England has no business presuring
Pakistan to suspend players.  I would recommend that Pak board tell
the English board to go to hell and cancel the English tour to
Pakistan in October. Who needs these them. Let them go and play
Aussies for another six test series so that Warne can pad up his stats
a bit more :-)

ICC credibility at stake again
By Trevor Marshallsea, AAP

The International Cricket Council's credibility and that of the sport
itself go on the line again over the next five days as the governing
body meets once more to tackle the biggest crisis in the game's
history.
But with relations stretched within the body over the match fixing
scandal - largely on an Asian/non-Asian divide - and in light of the
ICC's track record for ineffectiveness, few are holding their breath
for a massive breakthrough.

The spotlight will focus on former Australian Cricket Board chairman
Malcolm Gray as he takes up an enormous challenge as the body's new
president, succeeding controversial Indian Jagmohan Dalmiya.

Figures of influence in cricket have called for drastic measures to
save the game's reputation and indeed its future - including boosting
prizemoney to lessen the lure of ***, and cutting back the number
of meaningless one day tournaments where corruption has its best
chance to flourish.

But realistically, the biggest step envisaged from the annual meeting
is that the ICC will name the legal figure who will lead the new
independent anti-corruption commission announced at its emergency
meeting last month.

The commission and its chief are expected to act as an overlord, with
initial responsibility for corruption investigations still to remain
with each country, and the commission to review such inquiries and
take over if it deems them inadequate.

Debate is also expected to take place on whether a range of new
penalties for match fixing announced at last month's emergency meeting
can be invoked retrospectively.

Despite legal opinion that this would at best be difficult, some see
it as necessary since adequate laws were not in place to deal with
match fixing before its relatively recent eruption.

England, for example, is expected to push for two-year bans to be
imposed on Pakistan's Wasim Akram and Mushtaq Ahmed following their
naming in judge Malik Mohammad Qayyum's recent inquiry.

The pair were among seven Pakistan players recommended for censure or
fine for bringing the game into disrepute or failing to cooperate with
the inquiry.

England's stance on this is in turn expected to further inflame
tensions between it and Pakistan, with some tipping it could lead to
the cancellation of England's visit to Pakistan in October.

The match-fixing row is already said to have opened up bitter
rivalries within world cricket, with a power struggle ensuing between
historic forces England and Australia and the Asian teams of Pakistan,
India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, who are said to resent a perceived
lack of respect at the political level.

The Pakistan and India boards have also called for South African
cricket supremo Ali Bacher to be punished for raising match-rigging
allegations Pakistan played in two fixed matches at last year's World
Cup.

``I think the ... meeting would be a hot meeting,'' PCB chairman
General Tauqir Zia said.

``We will definitely ask the governing body to take a strong action
against Bacher.''

Leading commentators here are looking to the ICC to launch a new era,
to deal with and rise above the slur of corruption, and to put behind
it the tenure of its outgoing president.

Dalmiya, who rose to power through the votes of minor ICC members and
without a majority from the nine Test playing nations, has been forced
to deny allegations of involvement in shady deals for the awarding of
lucrative television rights for cricket on the sub-continent.

But apart from the fact Dalmiya is standing down, hopes for
meaningful, resuscitating progress are held more in optimism than
confidence.

``There have been a lot of promises of action from the ICC over the
years and nothing has materialised,'' said Matthew Engel, who recently
finished an eight-year term as editor of cricket's annual bible,
Wisden.

``The ICC has an appalling track record of being able to agree on
anything.''

Engel said the body needed to create an atmosphere where corruption
could not flourish - including boosting prizemoney and reducing the
number of inconsequential one day tournaments, though he admitted
there were too many vested interests at stake for this to stand a
chance.

The ICC also needed to beef up its investigations into corruption, and
to ``come clean on what it knows and has known'' about corruption,
Engel said.

What's agreed is that lovers of the ancient game around the world will
look to Gray, who will front a concluding press conference on Monday
with his chief executive, another Australian David Richards, who
himself has been forced to deny allegations of inaction against fixing
allegations.

``Malcolm Gray has a big challenge to try to get a hold of the game
after it has drifted under the Dalmiya regime and to see if he can
provide leadership,'' Engel said.

``While the president doesn't have enormous powers, he at least has
influence.

``This is the biggest challenge facing the game in its history.

``It's good at least to have a new president who will come in with a
clean sheet and who is not tainted by the past.

``Malcolm Gray's a good man. He needs to be a great man.''

AAP

 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Jay » Fri, 23 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Pakistan Cricket Board was the first one to have a full enquiry into the
matter and made recommendations. On the other hand, both Aussies and
English boards fail to do so in an open form. The cases of Chris Lewis and
much debated case of Waugh/Warne are examples of this sort of behavior.
ICC did make new rulings pertaining to match fixing, though one is not
clear as to whether they apply to all incidents or the law is for future
use only. It would be nice to see that English are making all this roar
for the right cause and not to save their fragile team from the wraths of
Warne, Akram and Waugh. Although Lara and Walsh are doing pretty good job
in showing the depth of English team, it is interesting to see how Lara's
name has started to appear in press with ancedots and hearsay.
Quote:

> The article suggests that England is pushing for a two year ban on
> Wasim and Mushie. If Justice Qayyum had imposed the bans I wouldn't
> have any problem at all. But England has no business presuring
> Pakistan to suspend players.  I would recommend that Pak board tell
> the English board to go to hell and cancel the English tour to
> Pakistan in October. Who needs these them. Let them go and play
> Aussies for another six test series so that Warne can pad up his stats
> a bit more :-)

> ICC credibility at stake again
> By Trevor Marshallsea, AAP

> The International Cricket Council's credibility and that of the sport
> itself go on the line again over the next five days as the governing
> body meets once more to tackle the biggest crisis in the game's
> history.
> But with relations stretched within the body over the match fixing
> scandal - largely on an Asian/non-Asian divide - and in light of the
> ICC's track record for ineffectiveness, few are holding their breath
> for a massive breakthrough.

> The spotlight will focus on former Australian Cricket Board chairman
> Malcolm Gray as he takes up an enormous challenge as the body's new
> president, succeeding controversial Indian Jagmohan Dalmiya.

> Figures of influence in cricket have called for drastic measures to
> save the game's reputation and indeed its future - including boosting
> prizemoney to lessen the lure of ***, and cutting back the number
> of meaningless one day tournaments where corruption has its best
> chance to flourish.

> But realistically, the biggest step envisaged from the annual meeting
> is that the ICC will name the legal figure who will lead the new
> independent anti-corruption commission announced at its emergency
> meeting last month.

> The commission and its chief are expected to act as an overlord, with
> initial responsibility for corruption investigations still to remain
> with each country, and the commission to review such inquiries and
> take over if it deems them inadequate.

> Debate is also expected to take place on whether a range of new
> penalties for match fixing announced at last month's emergency meeting
> can be invoked retrospectively.

> Despite legal opinion that this would at best be difficult, some see
> it as necessary since adequate laws were not in place to deal with
> match fixing before its relatively recent eruption.

> England, for example, is expected to push for two-year bans to be
> imposed on Pakistan's Wasim Akram and Mushtaq Ahmed following their
> naming in judge Malik Mohammad Qayyum's recent inquiry.

> The pair were among seven Pakistan players recommended for censure or
> fine for bringing the game into disrepute or failing to cooperate with
> the inquiry.

> England's stance on this is in turn expected to further inflame
> tensions between it and Pakistan, with some tipping it could lead to
> the cancellation of England's visit to Pakistan in October.

> The match-fixing row is already said to have opened up bitter
> rivalries within world cricket, with a power struggle ensuing between
> historic forces England and Australia and the Asian teams of Pakistan,
> India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, who are said to resent a perceived
> lack of respect at the political level.

> The Pakistan and India boards have also called for South African
> cricket supremo Ali Bacher to be punished for raising match-rigging
> allegations Pakistan played in two fixed matches at last year's World
> Cup.

> ``I think the ... meeting would be a hot meeting,'' PCB chairman
> General Tauqir Zia said.

> ``We will definitely ask the governing body to take a strong action
> against Bacher.''

> Leading commentators here are looking to the ICC to launch a new era,
> to deal with and rise above the slur of corruption, and to put behind
> it the tenure of its outgoing president.

> Dalmiya, who rose to power through the votes of minor ICC members and
> without a majority from the nine Test playing nations, has been forced
> to deny allegations of involvement in shady deals for the awarding of
> lucrative television rights for cricket on the sub-continent.

> But apart from the fact Dalmiya is standing down, hopes for
> meaningful, resuscitating progress are held more in optimism than
> confidence.

> ``There have been a lot of promises of action from the ICC over the
> years and nothing has materialised,'' said Matthew Engel, who recently
> finished an eight-year term as editor of cricket's annual bible,
> Wisden.

> ``The ICC has an appalling track record of being able to agree on
> anything.''

> Engel said the body needed to create an atmosphere where corruption
> could not flourish - including boosting prizemoney and reducing the
> number of inconsequential one day tournaments, though he admitted
> there were too many vested interests at stake for this to stand a
> chance.

> The ICC also needed to beef up its investigations into corruption, and
> to ``come clean on what it knows and has known'' about corruption,
> Engel said.

> What's agreed is that lovers of the ancient game around the world will
> look to Gray, who will front a concluding press conference on Monday
> with his chief executive, another Australian David Richards, who
> himself has been forced to deny allegations of inaction against fixing
> allegations.

> ``Malcolm Gray has a big challenge to try to get a hold of the game
> after it has drifted under the Dalmiya regime and to see if he can
> provide leadership,'' Engel said.

> ``While the president doesn't have enormous powers, he at least has
> influence.

> ``This is the biggest challenge facing the game in its history.

> ``It's good at least to have a new president who will come in with a
> clean sheet and who is not tainted by the past.

> ``Malcolm Gray's a good man. He needs to be a great man.''

> AAP


 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Kurt » Fri, 23 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> Pakistan Cricket Board was the first one to have a full enquiry into the
> matter and made recommendations. On the other hand, both Aussies and
> English boards fail to do so in an open form. The cases of Chris Lewis and
> much debated case of Waugh/Warne are examples of this sort of behavior.

Well, I thought the ACB conducted it's own inquiry into
the Waugh/Warne affair, although it was only conducted
after the incident belatedly became public. I believe the
conclusion was that the players should have been suspended
at he time but as the matter had already been dealt with,
albeit too lightly, that no further punishment should be
forthcoming.

I don't think that the ECB had much to investigate other than
some hearsay, but I though that Scotland Yard had investigated
this matter and found no substance to the allegations.

The fact of matter is that, apart from Cronje and Gibbs, not
a single player has been prevented from playing even a single
match, as a punishment. That inspite of it being quite obvious
that match-fixing and other shenanigans have been going one for
some while. Banning Salim Malik and Atur Rehman had absolutely
no impact on the Pakistani cricket as neither had any chance of
making the team without the ban. Likewise, the ACB made certain
that their teams ability to compete was not compromised.

I would have been more likely to accept the results of both
inquiries if they had shown that they had the fortitude to
actually ban a current player, even if that hurt their team's
chances in the short term.

Quote:
> ICC did make new rulings pertaining to match fixing, though one is not
> clear as to whether they apply to all incidents or the law is for future
> use only.

I would think that this would have been spelt out but I
do admit I do not know which it is. I would think that if
there was a clear case of match-fixing, the ICC would have
to ban that player, even if that fixing occurred before the
ICC rulings in the early 90s.

Quote:
> It would be nice to see that English are making all this roar
> for the right cause and not to save their fragile team from the wraths of
> Warne, Akram and Waugh.

I do not think that the English, in this matter at least,
are motivated by any other desire than to rid the game of
the dishonest players. Whether they would be so indignant if
evidence existed that implicated their own players, is another
matter altogether. However, I would like to think that their
attitude would be unchanged.

Quote:
>Although Lara and Walsh are doing pretty good job
> in showing the depth of English team, it is interesting to see how Lara's
> name has started to appear in press with ancedots and hearsay.

Yes, Lara seems to be dogged by controversy. The WICB have
announced that they will look into the matter but it is difficult
to see how they can have much of an investigation with the
support of the SACB. The best they can probably do is ask
the King Commission to investigate the matter.

The allegations against Lara are fairly weak, and from what
I can tell do not go any further than saying that Lara won
some money by wagering, but do not clarify exactly what it
was he bet on. Also it is alleged that he made mention of
a South Africans players weakness against pace to a bookie,
but not apparently for any compensation, and more of an off-
hand remark. Lara has denied these allegations and the
businessman who has made the allegation claims he was told
of these incidents by a bookie. Further he claims to have
been motivated by a desire to see players of other
nationalities be penalized, as he knows that not only
South Africans have been guilty of the types of offenses
admitted to by Cronje and Gibbs.

I doubt whether we will ever be certain whether these
accusations have any merit but if they are proved I expect
that Lara will suffer a larger penalty than merely a fine.

Kurt

Quote:

> > The article suggests that England is pushing for a two year ban on
> > Wasim and Mushie. If Justice Qayyum had imposed the bans I wouldn't
> > have any problem at all. But England has no business presuring
> > Pakistan to suspend players.  I would recommend that Pak board tell
> > the English board to go to hell and cancel the English tour to
> > Pakistan in October. Who needs these them. Let them go and play
> > Aussies for another six test series so that Warne can pad up his stats
> > a bit more :-)

> > ICC credibility at stake again
> > By Trevor Marshallsea, AAP

> > The International Cricket Council's credibility and that of the sport
> > itself go on the line again over the next five days as the governing
> > body meets once more to tackle the biggest crisis in the game's
> > history.
> > But with relations stretched within the body over the match fixing
> > scandal - largely on an Asian/non-Asian divide - and in light of the
> > ICC's track record for ineffectiveness, few are holding their breath
> > for a massive breakthrough.

> > The spotlight will focus on former Australian Cricket Board chairman
> > Malcolm Gray as he takes up an enormous challenge as the body's new
> > president, succeeding controversial Indian Jagmohan Dalmiya.

> > Figures of influence in cricket have called for drastic measures to
> > save the game's reputation and indeed its future - including boosting
> > prizemoney to lessen the lure of ***, and cutting back the number
> > of meaningless one day tournaments where corruption has its best
> > chance to flourish.

> > But realistically, the biggest step envisaged from the annual meeting
> > is that the ICC will name the legal figure who will lead the new
> > independent anti-corruption commission announced at its emergency
> > meeting last month.

> > The commission and its chief are expected to act as an overlord, with
> > initial responsibility for corruption investigations still to remain
> > with each country, and the commission to review such inquiries and
> > take over if it deems them inadequate.

> > Debate is also expected to take place on whether a range of new
> > penalties for match fixing announced at last month's emergency meeting
> > can be invoked retrospectively.

> > Despite legal opinion that this would at best be difficult, some see
> > it as necessary since adequate laws were not in place to deal with
> > match fixing before its relatively recent eruption.

> > England, for example, is expected to push for two-year bans to be
> > imposed on Pakistan's Wasim Akram and Mushtaq Ahmed following their
> > naming in judge Malik Mohammad Qayyum's recent inquiry.

> > The pair were among seven Pakistan players recommended for censure or
> > fine for bringing the game into disrepute or failing to cooperate with
> > the inquiry.

> > England's stance on this is in turn expected to further inflame
> > tensions between it and Pakistan, with some tipping it could lead to
> > the cancellation of England's visit to Pakistan in October.

> > The match-fixing row is already said to have opened up bitter
> > rivalries within world cricket, with a power struggle ensuing between
> > historic forces England and Australia and the Asian teams of Pakistan,
> > India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, who are said to resent a perceived
> > lack of respect at the political level.

> > The Pakistan and India boards have also called for South African
> > cricket supremo Ali Bacher to be punished for raising match-rigging
> > allegations Pakistan played in two fixed matches at last year's World
> > Cup.

> > ``I think the ... meeting would be a hot meeting,'' PCB chairman
> > General Tauqir Zia said.

> > ``We will definitely ask the governing body to take a strong action
> > against Bacher.''

> > Leading commentators here are looking to the ICC to launch a new era,
> > to deal with and rise above the slur of corruption, and to put behind
> > it the tenure of its outgoing president.

> > Dalmiya, who rose to power through the votes of minor ICC members and
> > without a majority from the nine Test playing nations, has been forced
> > to deny allegations of involvement in shady deals for the awarding of
> > lucrative television rights for cricket on the sub-continent.

> > But apart from the fact Dalmiya is standing down, hopes for
> > meaningful, resuscitating progress are held more in optimism than
> > confidence.

> > ``There have been a lot of promises of action from the ICC over the
> > years and nothing has materialised,'' said Matthew Engel, who recently
> > finished an eight-year term as editor of cricket's annual bible,
> > Wisden.

> > ``The ICC has an appalling track record of being able to agree on
> > anything.''

> > Engel said the body needed to create an atmosphere where corruption
> > could not flourish - including boosting prizemoney and reducing the
> > number of inconsequential one day tournaments, though he admitted
> > there were too many vested interests at stake for this to stand a
> > chance.

> > The ICC also needed to beef up its investigations into corruption, and
> > to ``come clean on what it knows and has known'' about corruption,
> > Engel said.

> > What's agreed is that lovers of the ancient game around the world will
> > look to Gray, who will front a concluding press conference on Monday
> > with his chief executive, another Australian David Richards, who
> > himself has been forced to deny allegations of inaction against fixing
> > allegations.

> > ``Malcolm Gray has a big challenge to try to get a hold of the game
> > after it has drifted under the Dalmiya regime and to see if he can
> > provide leadership,'' Engel said.

> > ``While the president doesn't have enormous powers, he at least has
> > influence.

> > ``This is the biggest challenge facing the game in its history.

> > ``It's good at least to have a new president who will come in with a
> > clean sheet and who is not tainted by the past.

> > ``Malcolm Gray's a

...

read more »

 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Subudd » Fri, 23 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>I do not think that the English, in this matter at least, are
>motivated by any other desire than to rid the game of the
>dishonest players. Whether they would be so indignant if
>evidence existed that implicated their own players, is another
>matter altogether. However, I would like to think that their
>attitude would be unchanged

And you are living in a fantasy land.  Why pick on Akram?
All the inquiry did was suggest that there *could* have been
some wheeling dealing by Akram, but there was no proof and he
could not be punished in any way (other than a fine for being
reluctant with the truth).  On the other hand Warne and
Waugh were caught red handed taking money from bookies,
it was hushed up by the ACB for 5 years until they were
forced to bring it out in the open, even then they have
refused to reveal all the details.  So who are the shady
characters here Akram or Warne and Waugh? And yet Mr Mcwhats
hisname has the gall to demand that Akram be kept out, while
Warne and Waugh can remain in their team? What a crock of
shit.  No wonder Engurlund is going down the toilet.  Mcwhats
hisname can keep his shitty team, who the hell wants to play
with them? The time for a black white split is here, it
should be welcomed.  We will then be free of the poms
whining.  What a relief!!!!

Subuddh

Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com

 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Jay » Fri, 23 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> >I do not think that the English, in this matter at least, are
> >motivated by any other desire than to rid the game of the
> >dishonest players. Whether they would be so indignant if
> >evidence existed that implicated their own players, is another
> >matter altogether. However, I would like to think that their
> >attitude would be unchanged

> And you are living in a fantasy land.  Why pick on Akram?
> All the inquiry did was suggest that there *could* have been
> some wheeling dealing by Akram, but there was no proof and he
> could not be punished in any way (other than a fine for being
> reluctant with the truth).  On the other hand Warne and
> Waugh were caught red handed taking money from bookies,
> it was hushed up by the ACB for 5 years until they were
> forced to bring it out in the open, even then they have
> refused to reveal all the details.

I beleive that ECB is also pushing for getting warne and Waugh out of
Aussie side.

Quote:
> So who are the shady
> characters here Akram or Warne and Waugh? And yet Mr Mcwhats
> hisname has the gall to demand that Akram be kept out, while
> Warne and Waugh can remain in their team? What a crock of
> shit.  No wonder Engurlund is going down the toilet.

I think the problem is with the selectors in England. they need to
invest in young talent. There also have been debates as whether county
cricket is good for English teams at all with big guns going great (look
at the over seas players this summer).

Quote:
> Mcwhats
> hisname can keep his shitty team, who the hell wants to play
> with them? The time for a black white split is here, it
> should be welcomed.  We will then be free of the poms
> whining.  What a relief!!!!

Thats the twist I do not want to see. Steve Waugh is a delight to watch
and I am sure Sachin enjoys playing Warne, too.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> Subuddh

> Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com

 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Kurt Toolsi » Fri, 23 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> >I do not think that the English, in this matter at least, are
> >motivated by any other desire than to rid the game of the
> >dishonest players. Whether they would be so indignant if
> >evidence existed that implicated their own players, is another
> >matter altogether. However, I would like to think that their
> >attitude would be unchanged

> And you are living in a fantasy land.  Why pick on Akram?
> All the inquiry did was suggest that there *could* have been
> some wheeling dealing by Akram, but there was no proof and he
> could not be punished in any way (other than a fine for being
> reluctant with the truth).

I don't know if you are refering to me here or to the ECB.
I don't think anyone is singling out Akram, as the push is
on to also exclude Mushie. The latter by the way confessed
that he had engaged in match-fixing on one occasion to none
other than the present coach of the pakistani cricket team,
Javed Miendad. The evidence against Akram was also strong,
having been accused of match-fixing by 3 former team-mates
and a bookie, in addition to having used his credit charge to
play for the plane ticket of At Ur Rehman when he retracted
his allegations. I think that the Justice made it fairly clear
that he thought that it was more than likely than Akram had
engaged in these practices but he could not reach a level of
proof that satisfied all reasonable doubts.

Quote:
> On the other hand Warne and
> Waugh were caught red handed taking money from bookies,
> it was hushed up by the ACB for 5 years until they were
> forced to bring it out in the open, even then they have
> refused to reveal all the details.

My interpretation was that they confessed rather than being
caught "red-handed". More importantly, however, is that they
were never accused of match-fixing, unlike Akram and
Mushie.

Kurt

Quote:
>  So who are the shady
> characters here Akram or Warne and Waugh? And yet Mr Mcwhats
> hisname has the gall to demand that Akram be kept out, while
> Warne and Waugh can remain in their team? What a crock of
> shit.  No wonder Engurlund is going down the toilet.  Mcwhats
> hisname can keep his shitty team, who the hell wants to play
> with them? The time for a black white split is here, it
> should be welcomed.  We will then be free of the poms
> whining.  What a relief!!!!

> Subuddh

> Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com

 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Linda Taylo » Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:00:00


Quote:
> And you are living in a fantasy land.  Why pick on Akram?
> All the inquiry did was suggest that there *could* have been
> some wheeling dealing by Akram, but there was no proof and he
> could not be punished in any way (other than a fine for being
> reluctant with the truth).

And I think you'll find that most England supporters are aghast at the
possibility of a unilateral line being taken by the ECB. Try actually
reading the British posts on here. I agree that if Akram hasn't been
charged, he shouldn't be singled out, and certainly the ECB can't insist
that he doesn't play because he's shifty. However, what I've read recently
is that McLaurin wants to put pressure on the ICC to put pressure on the
PCB, which is not the same thing.

Quote:
> And yet Mr Mcwhats
> hisname has the gall to demand that Akram be kept out, while
> Warne and Waugh can remain in their team? What a crock of
> shit.  No wonder Engurlund is going down the toilet.  Mcwhats
> hisname can keep his shitty team, who the hell wants to play
> with them? The time for a black white split is here, it
> should be welcomed.  We will then be free of the poms
> whining.  What a relief!!!!

A couple of points.
1) If you truly believe that a black/white split is good for world cricket,
you are letting your prejudice drive your judgement. You're evidently not
interested in what's good for the game.
2) The poms don't actually whine, even in the face of numerous dull posts
determined to tell us that we do. I can't think of a single British poster
on this ng who 'whines'. If you can, please enlighten me.

Linda

 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Shehzad H » Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:00:00

The issue here is that Justice Qayuum after listening to all the
evidence available to him did not recommend banning either one of the
players. Since he did not do that, then ECB or you for that matter can
stuff it.

Yes, the Judge was not satisfied with their excuses and recommended
further investigations in both Mushtaq Ahmed and Wasim's case. But,
just like your lame excuse that WICB can' do anything about Lara,
neither can PCB can do anything unless more evidence surfaces.

Quote:

>I don't know if you are refering to me here or to the ECB.
>I don't think anyone is singling out Akram, as the push is
>on to also exclude Mushie. The latter by the way confessed
>that he had engaged in match-fixing on one occasion to none
>other than the present coach of the pakistani cricket team,
>Javed Miendad.

So Miandad says and predictably Mushy denies it. Would you ban Mushy
for that ?

Quote:
>The evidence against Akram was also strong,
>having been accused of match-fixing by 3 former team-mates
>and a bookie,

I could be wrong here but the only person who accused Wasim with a
little bit credibility was Atta and he changed his mind about four
times.

Quote:
> in addition to having used his credit charge to
>play for the plane ticket of At Ur Rehman when he retracted
>his allegations.

This is stupid. Okay Wasim should be suspended because he paid for
Atta's ticket. So he did. What does that prove ? Or maybe proofs
aren't what need to deal with over. Let's just accuse someone and ban
him. More importantly it should be a current player so that you can be
happy.
Quote:
> I think that the Justice made it fairly clear
>that he thought that it was more than likely than Akram had
>engaged in these practices but he could not reach a level of
>proof that satisfied all reasonable doubts.

>> On the other hand Warne and
>> Waugh were caught red handed taking money from bookies,
>> it was hushed up by the ACB for 5 years until they were
>> forced to bring it out in the open, even then they have
>> refused to reveal all the details.

>My interpretation was that they confessed rather than being
>caught "red-handed". More importantly, however, is that they
>were never accused of match-fixing, unlike Akram and
>Mushie.

>Kurt

>>  So who are the shady
>> characters here Akram or Warne and Waugh? And yet Mr Mcwhats
>> hisname has the gall to demand that Akram be kept out, while
>> Warne and Waugh can remain in their team? What a crock of
>> shit.  No wonder Engurlund is going down the toilet.  Mcwhats
>> hisname can keep his shitty team, who the hell wants to play
>> with them? The time for a black white split is here, it
>> should be welcomed.  We will then be free of the poms
>> whining.  What a relief!!!!

>> Subuddh

>> Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
>> Up to 100 minutes free!
>> http://www.keen.com

 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Kurt » Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> The issue here is that Justice Qayuum after listening to all the
> evidence available to him did not recommend banning either one of the
> players. Since he did not do that, then ECB or you for that matter can
> stuff it.

I think that the justice used a fairly rigorous burden of proof.
Personally, I think that the evidence against Malik was no more
than that against Akram. The former was banned largely on the
weight of the verbal testimony of the australian players.

Quote:
> Yes, the Judge was not satisfied with their excuses and recommended
> further investigations in both Mushtaq Ahmed and Wasim's case. But,
> just like your lame excuse that WICB can' do anything about Lara,
> neither can PCB can do anything unless more evidence surfaces.

I make no excuses with regard to Lara. I would support the
WICB petitioning the King commission to investigate this
matter. My point is that they are powerless to perform
an investigation when all they have is a newspaper report
alleging that an anonymous business man in SA has made
certain allegations against Lara.

Quote:

> >I don't know if you are refering to me here or to the ECB.
> >I don't think anyone is singling out Akram, as the push is
> >on to also exclude Mushie. The latter by the way confessed
> >that he had engaged in match-fixing on one occasion to none
> >other than the present coach of the pakistani cricket team,
> >Javed Miendad.

> So Miandad says and predictably Mushy denies it. Would you ban Mushy
> for that ?

Well, yes. I would. Let me ask you, who do you think is telling
the truth? One of them is obviously lying. I think that Miendad
is by far the more credible witness. For both Mushy and Miendad
to continue to be with the team is unacceptable, IMO. One has to
go, and the decision as to which one should be based on who has
the most credibility.

Quote:

> This is stupid. Okay Wasim should be suspended because he paid for
> Atta's ticket. So he did. What does that prove ? Or maybe proofs
> aren't what need to deal with over. Let's just accuse someone and ban
> him. More importantly it should be a current player so that you can be
> happy.

That's silly. I have nothing to gain by banning Wasim. The
WI have just completed a series against Pakistan and apart
from the odd meaningless ODI will likely never face Akram
again.

Kurt

 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Subudd » Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Quote:



>> And you are living in a fantasy land.  Why pick on Akram?
>> All the inquiry did was suggest that there *could* have been
>> some wheeling dealing by Akram, but there was no proof and he
>> could not be punished in any way (other than a fine for being
>> reluctant with the truth).
>And I think you'll find that most England supporters are aghast
at the
>possibility of a unilateral line being taken by the ECB. Try
actually
>reading the British posts on here. I agree that if Akram hasn't
been
>charged, he shouldn't be singled out, and certainly the ECB
can't insist
>that he doesn't play because he's shifty. However, what I've
read recently
>is that McLaurin wants to put pressure on the ICC to put
pressure on the
>PCB, which is not the same thing.

That may be true, English supporters maybe dont want a
unilateral line taken, but the admin is living in the 19th
century, no doubt about that.

Quote:

>> And yet Mr Mcwhats
>> hisname has the gall to demand that Akram be kept out, while
>> Warne and Waugh can remain in their team? What a crock of
>> shit.  No wonder Engurlund is going down the toilet.  Mcwhats
>> hisname can keep his shitty team, who the hell wants to play
>> with them? The time for a black white split is here, it
>> should be welcomed.  We will then be free of the poms
>> whining.  What a relief!!!!
>A couple of points.
>1) If you truly believe that a black/white split is good for
world cricket,
>you are letting your prejudice drive your judgement. You're
evidently not
>interested in what's good for the game.

Yes I do!!!!! And this is not 'prejudice'.  There are a couple
of reasons why I think it will be good:
1) Most of the admin in the white countries *are* living in
the 19th century.  This is not some bizzarre paranoia, this
has been well documented by past Indian cricketers, and
Indian businessmen dealing with cricket.  These admin fail
to realize that the game has changed, the world has changed
and only want to cling to old colonial attitudes.  A split
should send a clear message to them, and when a reunion occurs
later on, these people should have been cleared out.
2) It will be *good* for Indian cricket!  Indian cricket is also
living in the 19th century.  The game still has 'honorary'
board officials!!! Indian cricket is hopelessly corrupt, under
the iron grip of the officials who do not allow any improvements
and cannot decently organize a tour.  The new Indian cricket
after the split will not be run by people like these but by
a new breed of people.  All these officials will then realize
that they are now obsolete and hopefully go into retirement.
Indian cricket (and the rest of the world) will be better
for it.
I dont see why a split has to invoke such horror among people.
Kerry Packer was the one to make the first split, and it
revolutionized the game.  Splits in sport happen all the time
esp when the admin cannot keep up with the game and the world.
This new split will too revolutionize the game. When there
is an eventual reunion, it will be a new game of cricket being
played.

Subuddh

Quote:
>2) The poms don't actually whine, even in the face of numerous
dull posts
>determined to tell us that we do. I can't think of a single
British poster
>on this ng who 'whines'. If you can, please enlighten me.

>Linda

Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Phil. G. Felt » Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> Pakistan Cricket Board was the first one to have a full enquiry into the
> matter and made recommendations. On the other hand, both Aussies and
> English boards fail to do so in an open form. The cases of Chris Lewis and
> much debated case of Waugh/Warne are examples of this sort of behavior.

The Chris Lewis 'case' was determined to be an attempt to influence matches in
a criminal manner and was quite properly referred to Scotland Yard for
investigation.  While I was in England last week they announced arrests of
three people involved in the betting ring and were following up with the
police forces in RSA and India.  The evidence has not all been made public
since it is the subject of a criminal investigation and there are laws in the
UK about publishing information about such investigations while a trial may
result (sub judice). You can hardly accuse the EWCB of failing to deal with
the matter in this case!  The Scotland Yard announcement also said that the
attempts made had not been successful.

Quote:
> ICC did make new rulings pertaining to match fixing, though one is not
> clear as to whether they apply to all incidents or the law is for future
> use only. It would be nice to see that English are making all this roar
> for the right cause and not to save their fragile team from the wraths of
> Warne, Akram and Waugh. Although Lara and Walsh are doing pretty good job
> in showing the depth of English team, it is interesting to see how Lara's
> name has started to appear in press with ancedots and hearsay.

Lara's name was raised in RSA not the UK.

Quote:

> > The article suggests that England is pushing for a two year ban on
> > Wasim and Mushie. If Justice Qayyum had imposed the bans I wouldn't
> > have any problem at all. But England has no business presuring
> > Pakistan to suspend players.  I would recommend that Pak board tell
> > the English board to go to hell and cancel the English tour to
> > Pakistan in October. Who needs these them. Let them go and play
> > Aussies for another six test series so that Warne can pad up his stats
> > a bit more :-)

England are a full member of ICC and are well within their rights in asking
that the ICC as governing body take action against anyone who brings the game
into disrepute, which Judge Qayyam did find as I recall.

Phil.

 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Phil. G. Felt » Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Quote:


> > Pakistan Cricket Board was the first one to have a full enquiry into the
> > matter and made recommendations. On the other hand, both Aussies and
> > English boards fail to do so in an open form. The cases of Chris Lewis and
> > much debated case of Waugh/Warne are examples of this sort of behavior.

> Well, I thought the ACB conducted it's own inquiry into
> the Waugh/Warne affair, although it was only conducted
> after the incident belatedly became public. I believe the
> conclusion was that the players should have been suspended
> at he time but as the matter had already been dealt with,
> albeit too lightly, that no further punishment should be
> forthcoming.

The original inquiry was conducted shortly after the incident in question
and fines levied a second inquiry into the inquiry was made later when the
whole matter became public.  The ICC had been notified at the time of the
original findings.

Quote:

> I don't think that the ECB had much to investigate other than
> some hearsay, but I though that Scotland Yard had investigated
> this matter and found no substance to the allegations.

Not true, Scotland Yard have been investigating the matter since the first
report and this week announced three arrests!  They did find that the attempt
to influence the matches had been unsuccessful though.  Certainly the EWCB
didn't have much to investigate since it was an attempt by a ring outside the
game to influence matches and they properly referred the matter to the police.

Quote:

> The fact of matter is that, apart from Cronje and Gibbs, not
> a single player has been prevented from playing even a single
> match, as a punishment. That inspite of it being quite obvious
> that match-fixing and other shenanigans have been going one for
> some while. Banning Salim Malik and Atur Rehman had absolutely
> no impact on the Pakistani cricket as neither had any chance of
> making the team without the ban. Likewise, the ACB made certain
> that their teams ability to compete was not compromised.

Who else is there who is still being selected for international teams for
whom there exists credible evidence of match fixing?

Phil.

 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Jay » Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:00:00

To get a grip on the real deal here, please read the article by Toni about ECB.

Quote:



> > Pakistan Cricket Board was the first one to have a full enquiry into the
> > matter and made recommendations. On the other hand, both Aussies and
> > English boards fail to do so in an open form. The cases of Chris Lewis and
> > much debated case of Waugh/Warne are examples of this sort of behavior.
> The Chris Lewis 'case' was determined to be an attempt to influence matches in
> a criminal manner and was quite properly referred to Scotland Yard for
> investigation.  While I was in England last week they announced arrests of
> three people involved in the betting ring and were following up with the
> police forces in RSA and India.  The evidence has not all been made public
> since it is the subject of a criminal investigation and there are laws in the
> UK about publishing information about such investigations while a trial may
> result (sub judice). You can hardly accuse the EWCB of failing to deal with
> the matter in this case!  The Scotland Yard announcement also said that the
> attempts made had not been successful.

*** as indicated in a post earlier in this newgroup(article by Toni Craig)
was introduced into the game some 30 years ago by no other than English. Timing of
arrests also comes as no surprise to me. I almost suspected the matter will be let
to diminish from the memories of cricket followers. But alas, Dehli police had to
catch Bookies!
Good work chaps! Indeed, smart.

Quote:
> > ICC did make new rulings pertaining to match fixing, though one is not
> > clear as to whether they apply to all incidents or the law is for future
> > use only. It would be nice to see that English are making all this roar
> > for the right cause and not to save their fragile team from the wraths of
> > Warne, Akram and Waugh. Although Lara and Walsh are doing pretty good job
> > in showing the depth of English team, it is interesting to see how Lara's
> > name has started to appear in press with ancedots and hearsay.

> Lara's name was raised in RSA not the UK.

Did you read English newspapers???

- Show quoted text -

Quote:


> > > The article suggests that England is pushing for a two year ban on
> > > Wasim and Mushie. If Justice Qayyum had imposed the bans I wouldn't
> > > have any problem at all. But England has no business presuring
> > > Pakistan to suspend players.  I would recommend that Pak board tell
> > > the English board to go to hell and cancel the English tour to
> > > Pakistan in October. Who needs these them. Let them go and play
> > > Aussies for another six test series so that Warne can pad up his stats
> > > a bit more :-)

> England are a full member of ICC and are well within their rights in asking
> that the ICC as governing body take action against anyone who brings the game
> into disrepute, which Judge Qayyam did find as I recall.

The only three players who have accepted that they took money for "forecasts,
pitch conditions..." are Warne, Waugh and Cronje. I fail to see how ICC could keep
double standards in the game with confessions in one hand and suspicions on
certain players in other hand. Surely the two are not equal. You need proof!

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> Phil.

 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by Shehzad H » Sun, 25 Jun 2000 04:00:00



Quote:


>> The issue here is that Justice Qayuum after listening to all the
>> evidence available to him did not recommend banning either one of the
>> players. Since he did not do that, then ECB or you for that matter can
>> stuff it.

>I think that the justice used a fairly rigorous burden of proof.
>Personally, I think that the evidence against Malik was no more
>than that against Akram. The former was banned largely on the
>weight of the verbal testimony of the australian players.

I really don't think you can compare the evidence against Wasim with
the evidence against Saleem Malik.

In the case of Saleem Malik,
 1)  there was direct testimony by two Aussies saying that Saleem
tried to bribe them
2) there was also direct testimony by Rashid Lateef saying the Saleem
offered him money
3) testimony by a Pervaiz who claimed to have given both Mushie and
Malik money.

So, we have four different people saying that Saleem tried to bribe
them or took money from them.

Contrast that with the case against Wasim

1) only Atta ur Rehman submitted a deposition saying that Wasim told
him to bowl poorly
2) Atta then denied this deposition saying that devil (in this case it
was Aamir Sohail) who made him do it
3) Changed his mind again and changed it again. It is not clear where
he stands on the issue today

That is it. So, your assertion that Wasim's and Saleem's cases were
equally damaging, is not based on facts.

 
 
 

England pushing for a ban on Wasim

Post by P.G. Felto » Sun, 25 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> To get a grip on the real deal here, please read the article by Toni about ECB.




> > > Pakistan Cricket Board was the first one to have a full enquiry into the
> > > matter and made recommendations. On the other hand, both Aussies and
> > > English boards fail to do so in an open form. The cases of Chris Lewis and
> > > much debated case of Waugh/Warne are examples of this sort of behavior.

> > The Chris Lewis 'case' was determined to be an attempt to influence matches in

> > a criminal manner and was quite properly referred to Scotland Yard for
> > investigation.  While I was in England last week they announced arrests of
> > three people involved in the betting ring and were following up with the
> > police forces in RSA and India.  The evidence has not all been made public
> > since it is the subject of a criminal investigation and there are laws in the
> > UK about publishing information about such investigations while a trial may
> > result (sub judice). You can hardly accuse the EWCB of failing to deal with
> > the matter in this case!  The Scotland Yard announcement also said that the
> > attempts made had not been successful.

> *** as indicated in a post earlier in this newgroup(article by Toni Craig)
> was introduced into the game some 30 years ago by no other than English. Timing of

*** has been a legal activity for many years in England and bets could be laid
at your
neighborhood bookie. About 30 years ago Ladbrokes were allowed to site a tent at Test
grounds.
Unlike illegal bookies, the companies have to submit accounts etc. and have no
interest in fixing
cricket matches considering the minuscule proportion of their revenue that comes from
that
sport.  A real bookmaker doesn't need to fix a match anyway they make their money by
setting the
odds so that they make money no matter who wins!  The only cricketers that I've ever
heard of
betting on a game in which they were playing in England were Lillee and Marsh in '81.

Quote:
> arrests also comes as no surprise to me. I almost suspected the matter will be let
> to diminish from the memories of cricket followers. But alas, Dehli police had to
> catch Bookies!
> Good work chaps! Indeed, smart.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, Scotland Yard have been investigating the
case and made
arrests, what has the timing to do with anything?

Quote:

> > > ICC did make new rulings pertaining to match fixing, though one is not
> > > clear as to whether they apply to all incidents or the law is for future
> > > use only. It would be nice to see that English are making all this roar
> > > for the right cause and not to save their fragile team from the wraths of
> > > Warne, Akram and Waugh. Although Lara and Walsh are doing pretty good job
> > > in showing the depth of English team, it is interesting to see how Lara's
> > > name has started to appear in press with ancedots and hearsay.

> > Lara's name was raised in RSA not the UK.

> Did you read English newspapers???

Yes and the issue of Laura's betting was first raised in RSV by  a San businessman as
I recall, of course
it was covered in the English newspapers, although not very prominently in the ones
that I read.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:


> > > > The article suggests that England is pushing for a two year ban on
> > > > Wasim and Mushie. If Justice Qayyum had imposed the bans I wouldn't
> > > > have any problem at all. But England has no business presuring
> > > > Pakistan to suspend players.  I would recommend that Pak board tell
> > > > the English board to go to hell and cancel the English tour to
> > > > Pakistan in October. Who needs these them. Let them go and play
> > > > Aussies for another six test series so that Warne can pad up his stats
> > > > a bit more :-)

> > England are a full member of ICC and are well within their rights in asking
> > that the ICC as governing body take action against anyone who brings the game
> > into disrepute, which Judge Qayyam did find as I recall.

> The only three players who have accepted that they took money for "forecasts,
> pitch conditions..." are Warne, Waugh and Cronje. I fail to see how ICC could keep
> double standards in the game with confessions in one hand and suspicions on
> certain players in other hand. Surely the two are not equal. You need proof!

Indeed, how would you characterize refusing to cooperate with the investigating
commission?

Phil.