Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by CricketConnoisse » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:26:02


People should remember that this was the first time both neutral
umpires were officiating in a test match. Although there were mistakes
made by both umpires one should feel that there was no bias toward any
one team. There have been many matches were certain biasedness
(whether intentional or not) resulted in the visiting team losing.

One decision which did cost the West Indies was the one against
Chanderpaul. Barring that decision there were equal number of mistakes
made for either side. That one terrible decision cost the West Indies
the match. However, India did well to win but the margin of victory
was very small considering the nature of the pitch and the fact that
chasing over 300 was never going to be easy even for a strong
Australian team on this pitch. (Leave alone a relatively weak WI
side).

The result actually shows how weak India is rather than its strength.
I had mentioned earlier that Kumble should have played. I also
mentioned that India might win and then people will forget the
mistakes in the team selection. This is the tragedy of Indian cricket.
Apart from blunders in selection and internal politics which is
terrible, they make other mistakes which result in India losing many
test matches.

Still, well done India and well done West Indies.

Regards,

CC

 
 
 

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by Shishir Path » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:40:14

Quote:

> People should remember that this was the first time both neutral
> umpires were officiating in a test match. Although there were mistakes
> made by both umpires one should feel that there was no bias toward any
> one team.

The umpires on the field did not have any bias towards or against any team.

Cheers,

Shishir

<snip>

 
 
 

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by Nikhil De » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:43:53


Quote:
> One decision which did cost the West Indies was the one against
> Chanderpaul. Barring that decision there were equal number of mistakes
> made for either side. That one terrible decision cost the West Indies
> the match. However, India did well to win but the margin of victory

I am a new subscriber to this group and could not understand if you are
serious or sarcastic here.
In case you are sarcastic/kidding please ignore this mail.

Lets take the case of one set of wrong decisions you 'cancelled out'.
<assuming it is the most likely Lara-Tendulkar set>
Do you mean to imply here that if Tendulkar was not given out wrongly in the
second innings he would have scored exactly the no of runs that Lara would
have scored in the first innings if he had not been given out?

if-then-else do not hold in Cricket.

Quote:
> was very small considering the nature of the pitch and the fact that
> chasing over 300 was never going to be easy even for a strong
> Australian team on this pitch. (Leave alone a relatively weak WI
> side).

Make up your mind! Is it the pitch or the one-extra-wrong-decision for
Chanderpaul that cost WI the match??

Quote:

> The result actually shows how weak India is rather than its strength.
> I had mentioned earlier that Kumble should have played. I also

There you go again.. if (Kumble had played) then  (India would have won
easily if there were no more wrong decisions and if the pitch had been more
helpful and if....)

Quote:
> mentioned that India might win and then people will forget the
> mistakes in the team selection. This is the tragedy of Indian cricket.

IF India does not select the team that you listed and go on to win some
cup/series THEN please think on the lines that you might have made some
mistake

Quote:
> Still, well done India and well done West Indies.

To end, I agree :)

 
 
 

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by Kurt Toolsi » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:44:35


Quote:
> People should remember that this was the first time both neutral
> umpires were officiating in a test match. Although there were mistakes
> made by both umpires one should feel that there was no bias toward any
> one team. There have been many matches were certain biasedness
> (whether intentional or not) resulted in the visiting team losing.

I agree absolutely with the above.

Quote:
> One decision which did cost the West Indies was the one against
> Chanderpaul. Barring that decision there were equal number of mistakes
> made for either side. That one terrible decision cost the West Indies
> the match.

As you said, there were a fair number of bad decisions, though
the Chanderpaul lbw was the worst. I don't think that you can just
look at this one decision in isolation and say that it cost the WI
the match. Sure if it had not been given, the WI probably would
have won but then we would be saying that if the Tendulkar lbw
had not been given, India would have won, etc. etc. There were
a number of bad decisions, most of which seemed to have to do
with the top batsmen. In a close Test such as this, they were all
significant, but in the end they were fairly evenly dispersed and
I've got no problem with the final result (in contrast to a number of
recent matches).

 >However, India did well to win but the margin of victory

Quote:
> was very small considering the nature of the pitch and the fact that
> chasing over 300 was never going to be easy even for a strong
> Australian team on this pitch. (Leave alone a relatively weak WI
> side).

I was impressed by the way in which the WI kept fighting back,
particularly after the umps kept nobbling them over the first few days.
In the end they fell just short. I actually believe that the decision
to play Murray instead of Jacobs cost the WI this match.

Quote:
> The result actually shows how weak India is rather than its strength.
> I had mentioned earlier that Kumble should have played. I also
> mentioned that India might win and then people will forget the
> mistakes in the team selection. This is the tragedy of Indian cricket.
> Apart from blunders in selection and internal politics which is
> terrible, they make other mistakes which result in India losing many
> test matches.

I think India played their best team. Harbadjan was ineffective and
I doubt Kumle would have been much better.

Quote:

> Still, well done India and well done West Indies.

Yes, the two teams are evenly matched and the series is still
very much alive.

Kurt

Quote:

> Regards,

> CC

 
 
 

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by Slowhan » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 03:29:35

Boy, you sure are singing a different tune now. Just a
couple of days back, you were claiming Umpires
weren't giving Tendulkar out because of a giant
*** involving tv revenues! You lost your
credibility right there - why would anyone take
your posts seriously now?


Quote:
> People should remember that this was the first time both neutral
> umpires were officiating in a test match. Although there were mistakes
> made by both umpires one should feel that there was no bias toward any
> one team. There have been many matches were certain biasedness
> (whether intentional or not) resulted in the visiting team losing.

 
 
 

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by CricketConnoisse » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 05:20:33

Quote:



> > One decision which did cost the West Indies was the one against
> > Chanderpaul. Barring that decision there were equal number of mistakes
> > made for either side. That one terrible decision cost the West Indies
> > the match. However, India did well to win but the margin of victory

> I am a new subscriber to this group and could not understand if you are
> serious or sarcastic here.
> In case you are sarcastic/kidding please ignore this mail.

> Lets take the case of one set of wrong decisions you 'cancelled out'.
> <assuming it is the most likely Lara-Tendulkar set>
> Do you mean to imply here that if Tendulkar was not given out wrongly in the
> second innings he would have scored exactly the no of runs that Lara would
> have scored in the first innings if he had not been given out?

I honestly could not discuss the second innings decision as I did not
watch it. However, it has been my experience that whenever Tendulkar
has been given out lbw the fans seem to feel shortchanged. I did see
Tendulkar's first innings and he was out at least 3 times possibly 5
times lbw. two out of those five shouts were quite plumb. Tendulkar
was hardly on 20 or maybe 25 when one of those loud and quite plumb
appeals were made. Had Tendulkar been given out India would hardly
have made 200 let alone 300 plus.

Tendulkar got the benefit of doubt in about 4 to 5 occasions and Lara
got the benefit of doubt on two occasions. However, one appeal for
Tendulkar seemed plumb as can be. Even Gavaskar had to admit that
Tendulkar was extremely lucky to still be there.

In any event , mistakes were made by the umpires. The real shocker was
giving Chanderpaul out. When the ball pitches outside the leg stump
the decision should be relatively easy for the umpire. Furthermore, I
have always maintained that giving the batsman the benefit of doubt is
much better than giving him wrongly out. And to give him wrongly out
on an appeal which really should not be that difficult to judge was a
shocker. That decision cost West Indies the match. For Chanderpaul
alongwith Hooper could have taken West Indies to around 300.

Anyhow, sometimes these things happen and that's how it is.

It was a good test match and West Indies deserve a lot of credit for
reaching 275. The tragedy for India truly lies in the fact that they
did win. For IMHO Ganguly doesn't deserve to be in the team let alone
captain it. Even in this series where he has scored a good 75, his
average is only around 33 or so. Take his average over the last two
years and it will be under 30. That's not a loss of form. That shows
his capabilities after bowlers have figured him out.

However, since Sehwag is injured Ganguly could play. However, when
Sehwag returns he should play in place of Ganguly. Unless Dravid opens
with Das and we see Tendulkar come in at 3, Sehwag at 4, Laxman at 5
and Ganguly at 6. Play the wicketkeeper at 7 and then the four
bowlers.

Regards,

CC

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> if-then-else do not hold in Cricket.

> > was very small considering the nature of the pitch and the fact that
> > chasing over 300 was never going to be easy even for a strong
> > Australian team on this pitch. (Leave alone a relatively weak WI
> > side).

> Make up your mind! Is it the pitch or the one-extra-wrong-decision for
> Chanderpaul that cost WI the match??

> > The result actually shows how weak India is rather than its strength.
> > I had mentioned earlier that Kumble should have played. I also

> There you go again.. if (Kumble had played) then  (India would have won
> easily if there were no more wrong decisions and if the pitch had been more
> helpful and if....)

> > mentioned that India might win and then people will forget the
> > mistakes in the team selection. This is the tragedy of Indian cricket.

> IF India does not select the team that you listed and go on to win some
> cup/series THEN please think on the lines that you might have made some
> mistake

> > Still, well done India and well done West Indies.
> To end, I agree :)

 
 
 

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by Spaceman Spif » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 06:08:21


Quote:

> For IMHO Ganguly doesn't deserve to be in the team let alone
> captain it. Even in this series where he has scored a good 75, his
> average is only around 33 or so.

nope, its 52.50.
105 runs for twice dismissed. You do the math.

--
stay cool,
Spaceman Spiff

If you see St Annie, please tell her thanks alot
My thoughts they are twisted, my tentacles are all in a knot
I don't even have the strength to get up and take another shot.
Now my best friend, my drummer, won't even tell what it was that I dropped

 
 
 

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by Shishir Path » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 18:41:48

Quote:




> > > One decision which did cost the West Indies was the one against
> > > Chanderpaul. Barring that decision there were equal number of mistakes
> > > made for either side. That one terrible decision cost the West Indies
> > > the match. However, India did well to win but the margin of victory

> > I am a new subscriber to this group and could not understand if you are
> > serious or sarcastic here.
> > In case you are sarcastic/kidding please ignore this mail.

> > Lets take the case of one set of wrong decisions you 'cancelled out'.
> > <assuming it is the most likely Lara-Tendulkar set>
> > Do you mean to imply here that if Tendulkar was not given out wrongly in the
> > second innings he would have scored exactly the no of runs that Lara would
> > have scored in the first innings if he had not been given out?

> I honestly could not discuss the second innings decision as I did not
> watch it. However, it has been my experience that whenever Tendulkar
> has been given out lbw the fans seem to feel shortchanged.

Crud.

Tendulkar was dismissed lbw in the first innings of this Test, as also
in the only innings in the Bourda Test.  Moreover, in the recent
Ind-Zim ***, he was adjudged lbw 2 out 3 times he was dismissed in
the series.

No one complained about the umpiring then.

Quit trying to defend poor quality of umpiring.  Leave that to Larry.

Cheers,

Shishir

 
 
 

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by Nikhil De » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 22:56:33



Quote:


> I honestly could not discuss the second innings decision as I did not
> watch it. However, it has been my experience that whenever Tendulkar
> has been given out lbw the fans seem to feel shortchanged. I did see
> Tendulkar's first innings and he was out at least 3 times possibly 5
> times lbw. two out of those five shouts were quite plumb. Tendulkar
> was hardly on 20 or maybe 25 when one of those loud and quite plumb
> appeals were made. Had Tendulkar been given out India would hardly
> have made 200 let alone 300 plus.

Dear CC:

Since I have not watched a single ball in this test match, I cannot give any
opinion.

But my point has nothing to do about how many decisions were wrong.
It is about the assumption that had one decision gone the other way, the
rest of
the things would have remained the same and so that decision 'definitely'
could
have changed the outcome of the match.
(yes ..my views are greatly inspired by the idea of parallel universe and
'Back to the future' :) )

If Tendulkar had been given out when you thought he was out, maybe someone
else would
have played better ..maybe India would have made more runs... who knows.

So at the end of match, it is best not to discuss 'what if' as frankly
nobody knows... well unless
it is a case like someone won by 1 wicket and you are saying what if the
last man was given
out 10 runs back.. I agree that outcome would have been different..

enjoy the game!

 
 
 

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by Nikhil De » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 23:03:42



Quote:


> I honestly could not discuss the second innings decision as I did not
> watch it. However, it has been my experience that whenever Tendulkar
> has been given out lbw the fans seem to feel shortchanged. I did see
> Tendulkar's first innings and he was out at least 3 times possibly 5
> times lbw. two out of those five shouts were quite plumb. Tendulkar
> was hardly on 20 or maybe 25 when one of those loud and quite plumb
> appeals were made. Had Tendulkar been given out India would hardly
> have made 200 let alone 300 plus.

Dear CC:

Since I have not watched a single ball in this test match, I cannot give any
opinion.

But my point has nothing to do about how many decisions were wrong.
It is about the assumption that had one decision gone the other way, the
rest of
the things would have remained the same and so that decision 'definitely'
could
have changed the outcome of the match.
(yes ..my views are greatly inspired by the idea of parallel universe and
'Back to the future' :) )

If Tendulkar had been given out when you thought he was out, maybe someone
else would
have played better ..maybe India would have made more runs... who knows.

So at the end of match, it is best not to discuss 'what if' as frankly
nobody knows... well unless
it is a case like someone won by 1 wicket and you are saying what if the
last man was given
out 10 runs back.. I agree that outcome would have been different..

enjoy the game!

 
 
 

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by Kurt Toolsi » Sat, 27 Apr 2002 00:57:23

Sorry for top-posting but I suspect that if all the decisions
went against India you would not be so magnanimous.

Kurt


Quote:

> But my point has nothing to do about how many decisions were wrong.
> It is about the assumption that had one decision gone the other way, the
> rest of
> the things would have remained the same and so that decision 'definitely'
> could
> have changed the outcome of the match.
> (yes ..my views are greatly inspired by the idea of parallel universe and
> 'Back to the future' :) )

> If Tendulkar had been given out when you thought he was out, maybe someone
> else would
> have played better ..maybe India would have made more runs... who knows.

> So at the end of match, it is best not to discuss 'what if' as frankly
> nobody knows... well unless
> it is a case like someone won by 1 wicket and you are saying what if the
> last man was given
> out 10 runs back.. I agree that outcome would have been different..

> enjoy the game!

 
 
 

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by Nikhil De » Sat, 27 Apr 2002 01:48:48


Quote:
> Sorry for top-posting but I suspect that if all the decisions
> went against India you would not be so magnanimous.

> Kurt

When is India touring Australia ? :)

BTW, I fail to understand, why you would spend time in writing 'Sorry for
top-posting' when you know it is frowned upon and you could have used the
same time to scroll down and then write..

 
 
 

Inspite of Defeat WI should be proud of their performance

Post by Kurt Toolsi » Sun, 28 Apr 2002 00:07:27


Quote:



> > Sorry for top-posting but I suspect that if all the decisions
> > went against India you would not be so magnanimous.

> > Kurt

> When is India touring Australia ? :)

> BTW, I fail to understand, why you would spend time in writing 'Sorry for
> top-posting' when you know it is frowned upon and you could have used the
> same time to scroll down and then write..

...because this was one of the rare occasions when I felt
that top posting was preferable.

Kurt