Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by La » Sun, 01 Feb 2004 13:46:39


I am looking around the All-Time Indian XI's posted in RSC, the most
recent one I found is Mike Holmans' 2002 list.

SM Gavaskar
VM Merchant
D Vengsarkar
SR Tendulkar
VS Hazare
CK Nayudu
N Kapil Dev (c)
SMH Kirmani (k)
EAS Prasanna
Amar Singh
BS Chandrasekhar

I think after the Australian tour, this list needs an update,
Rahul Dravid in for Dilip Vengsarkar. Not sure about about CK Nayudu,
either.

Cheers,
Lax

 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by Anonymou » Sun, 01 Feb 2004 19:41:51

Vengsarkar, Prasanna, and Nayudu definitely don't belong in this team.
Dravid belonged in the team even well before the Aus. tour.

Gavaskar
Merchant
Dravid
Tendulkar
Laxman
Hazare
Kapil Dev
Engineer/Kirmani
Harbhajan Singh/S Gupte
Mohammad Nissar
Kumble/Chandrasekhar

12th man:  Eknath Solkar/Yajurvindra Singh

 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by V » Mon, 02 Feb 2004 00:37:10

Quote:

> Vengsarkar, Prasanna, and Nayudu definitely don't belong in this team.

How much do you know about Nayudu? How long has VVS played and how
many centuries has he scored? Against what type of opposition bowling?
Isnt it a tad early to be putting him in an all time XI? He has just
about cemented a place in the current XI.

Quote:
> Dravid belonged in the team even well before the Aus. tour.

> Gavaskar
> Merchant
> Dravid
> Tendulkar
> Laxman
> Hazare
> Kapil Dev
> Engineer/Kirmani
> Harbhajan Singh/S Gupte
> Mohammad Nissar
> Kumble/Chandrasekhar

> 12th man:  Eknath Solkar/Yajurvindra Singh

Oh, you have Harby in there as well? On the basis of what - his 32
wicket haul? Maybe Hirwani should be in there as well.

-VJ

 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by Anonymou » Mon, 02 Feb 2004 01:01:01


Check the stats first.  Then come back to debate with me.

 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by Mike Holman » Mon, 02 Feb 2004 03:02:25


Quote:
>I am looking around the All-Time Indian XI's posted in RSC, the most
>recent one I found is Mike Holmans' 2002 list.

>SM Gavaskar
>VM Merchant
>D Vengsarkar
>SR Tendulkar
>VS Hazare
>CK Nayudu
>N Kapil Dev (c)
>SMH Kirmani (k)
>EAS Prasanna
>Amar Singh
>BS Chandrasekhar

>I think after the Australian tour, this list needs an update,
>Rahul Dravid in for Dilip Vengsarkar.

If it were just the Aus tour, I might quibble at that. But I think I
posted that team before the Eng v Ind series that year, and that
series coupled with the Aus one edge Vengsarkar out.

And I'm sticking with Nayudu at 6 because a top order featuring SMG,
Dravid, Merchant and Hazare is liable to take ages getting anywhere
and there will sometimes be a need for a blaster to come in and
thwack. None of the other plausible candidates seem to me to be as
well-fitted for that task than Nayudu.

Cheers,

Mike

 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by Arvind Bor » Mon, 02 Feb 2004 04:37:08

Quote:



> Check the stats first.  Then come back to debate with me.

You mean the stats that show that Prasanna had four superb series,
two at home and two away (plus a few good ones), compared to Harbhajan's
two outstanding home series (plus a few good ones)?  Or do you mean
the "away" averages of the two (34 for Pras vs 37 for Harby)?  

I saw Prasanna live at his peak and I've seen footage of Harbhajan at
what was very likely his. There's no doubt in my mind that Prasanna
was the superior bowler: his flight, variation and control were all
better, as was his action (surprisingly smooth and relaxed for a
somewhat portly fellow).  

Arvind

 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by Anonymou » Mon, 02 Feb 2004 04:48:01

So how is Harbhajan better than Prasanna?  Oh, let me count the ways...

                        Wickets/match:        Average                Strike
Rate
Bhajji                4.19                        28.47
63.8
Pras.                3.85                           30.38
75.9

 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by Anonymou » Mon, 02 Feb 2004 04:59:45

Nayudu - batting average - 25; bowling average - 42.88

Need to know any more?

VVS has the same average as Merchant and Hazare (47+), had played 5 times
the Test matches that Hazare did and 20 more than Merchant.  Has scored most
of his runs and centuries against the best bowling attack in the world.

Quote:
> Oh, you have Harby in there as well? On the basis of what - his 32
> wicket haul? Maybe Hirwani should be in there as well.

Check stats in post below.
 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by Anonymou » Mon, 02 Feb 2004 05:02:19

Quote:
> VVS has the same average as Merchant and Hazare (47+), had played 5 times
> the Test matches that Hazare did and 20 more than Merchant.  Has scored
most
> of his runs and centuries against the best bowling attack in the world.

Should have been 5 times as many as Merchant and 20 more than Hazare.
 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by V » Mon, 02 Feb 2004 08:55:03

Quote:



> Check the stats first.  Then come back to debate with me.

Stats are not everything. There, I can write silly one liners too.

-VJ

 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by DiiVolu » Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:07:25

Quote:


> >I am looking around the All-Time Indian XI's posted in RSC, the most
> >recent one I found is Mike Holmans' 2002 list.

> >SM Gavaskar
> >VM Merchant
> >D Vengsarkar
> >SR Tendulkar
> >VS Hazare
> >CK Nayudu
> >N Kapil Dev (c)
> >SMH Kirmani (k)
> >EAS Prasanna
> >Amar Singh
> >BS Chandrasekhar

> >I think after the Australian tour, this list needs an update,
> >Rahul Dravid in for Dilip Vengsarkar.

> If it were just the Aus tour, I might quibble at that. But I think I
> posted that team before the Eng v Ind series that year, and that
> series coupled with the Aus one edge Vengsarkar out.

> And I'm sticking with Nayudu at 6 because a top order featuring SMG,
> Dravid, Merchant and Hazare is liable to take ages getting anywhere
> and there will sometimes be a need for a blaster to come in and
> thwack. None of the other plausible candidates seem to me to be as
> well-fitted for that task than Nayudu.

That is correct..but on a day when SMG and Merchant both strike
form...there would little chance for anyone else even to visit the
wicket...though expect mass spectator suicides:-)...i was told
merchant at his defensive was still a treat to watch ....

I would though put in Mohinder in instead of vengsarkar and put in
hazare ahead of SRT in batting...rest are standard...might use bedi or
nasser for Chandra...

Quote:
> Cheers,

> Mike

regards
PRanshu B Saxena
 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by R. Bharat Ra » Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:32:13


Quote:
> I am looking around the All-Time Indian XI's posted in RSC, the most

Here's mine

Gavaskar
Merchant
Dravid (recent change)
Tendulkar
Hazare
Mankad
Kapil Dev
Kirmani
Srinath (Kumble instead for home tests)
Prasanna
Chandrasekhar

Prasanna instead of Bedi because Mankad was comparable (but not quite as
good) as an LAS, and a genuine bat -- IMO, the 4th greatest Indian player
ever.

Dravid is now in over Azhar, Vishwanath, Amarnath, Vengsarkar and other
contenders.

Bharat

 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by Shripathi Kamat » Mon, 02 Feb 2004 22:56:00



Quote:



> > I am looking around the All-Time Indian XI's posted in RSC, the most

Here's mine

Gavaskar
Mankad
Mohinder Amarnath
Tendulkar
Dravid
Hazare
Kapil Dev
Kirmani
Srinath
Prasanna
Chandrasekhar

...same as it was last year

--
Shripathi Kamath

 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by DiiVolu » Tue, 03 Feb 2004 04:26:22

Quote:

> I am looking around the All-Time Indian XI's posted in RSC, the most
> recent one I found is Mike Holmans' 2002 list.

> SM Gavaskar
> VM Merchant
> D Vengsarkar
> SR Tendulkar
> VS Hazare
> CK Nayudu
> N Kapil Dev (c)
> SMH Kirmani (k)
> EAS Prasanna
> Amar Singh
> BS Chandrasekhar

> I think after the Australian tour, this list needs an update,
> Rahul Dravid in for Dilip Vengsarkar. Not sure about about CK Nayudu,
> either.

> Cheers,
> Lax

Old article I had posted on RSC with an some comments from others:
 
 
 

Time to update the All-Time Indian XI?

Post by DiiVolu » Tue, 03 Feb 2004 04:27:45

Quote:

> I am looking around the All-Time Indian XI's posted in RSC, the most
> recent one I found is Mike Holmans' 2002 list.

> SM Gavaskar
> VM Merchant
> D Vengsarkar
> SR Tendulkar
> VS Hazare
> CK Nayudu
> N Kapil Dev (c)
> SMH Kirmani (k)
> EAS Prasanna
> Amar Singh
> BS Chandrasekhar

> I think after the Australian tour, this list needs an update,
> Rahul Dravid in for Dilip Vengsarkar. Not sure about about CK Nayudu,
> either.

> Cheers,
> Lax

Old article I had posted: Try 2

evidently the link did not come through: So prose is put in

Hi,

I do not know if my previous 4 attempts at posting to this thread
succeeded or not. If they did, i do apologise for taking extra
bandwidth.

Anyway, I want to jump into the discussion on Indian Legends
nominating these 7 players for starters from 1930s.
(DB Deodhar, KM Mistry, Duleep, Ranji have to wait).

CK Nayudu : The Father of Indian Cricket

Lala Amarnath : The Stormy Petrel

Merchant & Mushtaq :  Prose & Poetry

Of course Thunder & Lightening ( Nasser & Amar Singh)
& DD Hindelkar.

I would start with deeds of an Indore born sportsman (not Dravid, his
spiritual grandfather).
CK played first class cricket for first time in 1919 with Cooch Behar
's XI
and graduated to quadrangular where he was a regular member of the
Hindus
side. In 1926, he foiled a ploy by Hindu captain Vithal and saved a
career
of a chap he had met for first time. ("Are you the ramaswamy of
madras,
whatever happens, you are padding up to bat").
Ramaswamy scored a ton then and 14 years later was to add 73 in 48
minutes
with CK vs Voce & Farnes at their fastest.

In 1932, in face of stiff opposition from section of team , he lead
with
dignity and saw a fledgling Indian XI to 11 first class wins under
him.
Scored 1600 at 40 and bowled adequately.
in 1936, humiliated by previous patron and saw a trusted colleague
send
home on trumped up charge, with skipper offering test caps to those
who would
abuse him, he still averaged in 40s (he was 40 years of age),
his bowling drew admiration from certain Wally Hammond and coming at
crucial
junction when 2nd test still could be lost added the said 73 in 48
minutes.

in 3rd test, with india facing innings defeat, hit on chest by an
allen
bouncer which did'nt rise, he valiantly struck out for 2 hours scoring
86 in his swan song, on off , he lead india last time in 1939
vs ceylon and also lead an Indian XI to first win over international
side
in 1931 when India defeated Ceylon ( Navle & Naomal added 150 for
opeing wicket.)

Still, colonel 's greatest achievemnt was in 26 when he blasted the
MCC
attack for 11 sixes and scored 153 in even time.

Shunned by test authorities, returned home in 1946 (at age of 50)
to develop a Ranji side which went to next 6 ranji finals winning him
trophy
3 times. retiring in 1953, he was called bya developing weak
association
to lead them. At age of 62, he took the challenge and took them
(UP) to semifinals scoing 22 & 52 while taking 3 wickets in each
innings
including those of Apte, Umrigar, Ramchand.

He defeated Indian snooker, billiards, chess champions of his time and
extended the squash champion, there is rumour that he beat the tennis
champion
("Are you Ramaswamy of madras") once too.
His life long friend and compatriot DB Deodhar said that but for
smoking which
caused his early death at age of 72 (DB himself scored a century in
life:-)
he was the quintennsial sportsman.

The grateful Indians remember the Father of cricket with only statue
ever put
up of a cricketer in India (prob. world)

Son was lala amarnath the punjabi prodigy whose 118 delighted the
spectators
so much that rich ladies in member's stands showered jwellery on him
as he returned with his partner in crime a certain CK with whom he
added 184.

Next season saw him score 3 tons against Ryder 's Australians ,
including 144 in 4 hours for Moinud Dowla XI (the best representative
side
of its times). Then he would score 3 more vs Tennyson 's including 2
in test
matches (low scoring) in 1937.

1936, he was heading the batting and bowling averages on english tour
when he
was send back. He had recently scored 100 & 130 (India 184 all out)
and took 7 wickets vs Essex.?

in 1939-40, MCC 's chosen side for offical tour of india was far
weaker than
Tennyson's XI and fate intervened in WWI.

Destroyed the jardine's services and lankans in war time when
Australian
Services arrived lead by Hassett, boasting Miller et al.
After 2 tests, Amrnath bowled hassett 3 times in 3 innings.
in 3rd test,Lala started with 113 in 2 hours and 4 wickets to destroy
aussies and won india the test & series.
Russy mody helped too witha 203 :-)

In 1946, he was india 's primary bowler at age of 35, and despite
lumbago, india's reserve keepr, Nimablkar having injured himself.

in first test, took 5 wickets in only english innings.
in second test, took 5 wickets again starting with 4/13 spell which
accounted for Hutton, Washbrook, Hammond.
In second innings took another 3 of 5 to fall.
in 3rdt test, on spinning pitch, english only lost 3 wickets.
Lala took 13 of 28 english test wickets in that series.

he also scored runs in his imperious style and kept wickets on & off.

Ina match vs hampshire, with lot of time lost that hamp captain
had agreed to cancel innings intervals, he ran through side and bowled
last one , hamps automatically followed on and with next ball
he got the same batsman again, getting a batsman out in first class
cricket
out twice within a minute.

Then when Merchant 's injury propelled him to skippership to Australia
,
he enjoyed a great tour not albiet in tests and his leadership skills
were
commented on by Don himself.
He started off with 144 & 94* vs South Australia where india chasing
287 had simmered down to 16/4 when lala and mankad added 200 , india
finishing with 235/5

Or vs Victoria as lala walked into at score 0/3 (Hazare, Mankad,
Adhikari)
and scored 228 out of 403 (6 indians scored ducks) , this innings was
chosen as Innings of 1948-61 period by Times of India for their 150th
celebrations.

Furthermore, Don enjoyed the strategic battles with lala (lala & he
both send
tailenders to open at times in the series) and the spirit of
friendship
in which the series took place.

Returning, he lead india out of 3 consec. positions of defeat to draw,
in calcutta took up the challenge of scoring 431 in a day and 110
minutes,
fates and dew conspired to rob him of 60 minutes on last day as India
66/0
overnight added 270 in 5 hours with he himself going hammer & tongs at
58*
when match was called off India 330/3.
Even in the final test, Indian keeper was injured and lala took up
gloves ,
took 4 catches and set up victory target of 360, when both openers
fell
cheaply on 4rth evening, he walked in very angry & furious (mushtaq
ali
recalled later ) and smashed 37 runs in 28 balls , Modi,  Hazare then
took
over (both commenting on lala 's innings as inspiring) and with
8 down at 320 (rememeber keeper could not bat), Phadkar smashed
windies
to reach 355 with windies delaying tactics like 6 drinks breaks &
keeper walcott dropping his gloves and runing to boundary to collect
the ball
saving their bacon.

anyway, he got into a fight with management again to not included over
next 2
years and then Vizzy making up with him, returned as Indian captain &
won the first offical series for India vs pakistan, himself starting
the
ball rolling with 4 wickets in a furious spell (hanif, kardar et al)
at age of 42.
In second test, with india nearing defeat, (7 rookies in side),
he smashed fzal & khan mohammed to score unconquered 61.

retired from cricket, he was called back to lead india vs commonwealth
xi
in 1957 age of 46 and lead india to win (this was to celebrate india
's
silver jublee in tests). Umrigar did good by 2 tons too.
retired soon after taking 4 wickets for 0 runs in Ranji in 1958.

Served as Indian chairman of selectors and trusted kenny and took a
gamble in
Patel which saw one of the greatest indian wins all time at kanpur
1959.

of course, 2 of the sons added to the splendour of the name of
Bhardwaj.
(Like KapilDev, his name is Amarnath, lala being a nick name, surname
is Bhardwaj)

Then we come to the holy ghost, Vijay Merchant
started with 19* & 67* vs jardine 's MCC who called him india 's
solidest
bat, had precisely 23 first class matches when he went to UK where he
played
23 more , scoring 1700 runs at 52. carrying bat in both innings of
match etc.
with a 36 in first test (on a minefield), 114 adding 203 in 135
minutes
with Mushtaq india 368 runs behind or 52 in 3rd test.
He had a bad time vs tennyson's team scoring only 97 in 9 innings
(captaincy
was not the problem, breakup with mentor LP Jai was the cause)
scored 137 & 36 vs wickramsinge 's ceylon but had another bad moment
on death
of his buddy Amar Singh, he was 32. (amar & vijay named their first
sons
after each other)
scored 200 (including 98 in a session) vs Jardine's services.
Hit 2 valiant tons to save 1st 2 tests includinga massive 155* vs
australian
services, he was robbed of captaincy to england but played still
scoring 2400
runs in 27 matches. including a marvellous 128 on wet wicket in 3rd
test.

Injury forced him out of next two years of cricket.
On return, he lead india in first 2 test vs CXI when he got injured
again,
Hazare took over winning 2 tests and scoring 675 runs.

He lead india vs second CXI and scored well and best was 107 on last
day of
series on a horrible wicket.
In next test, scored 154 vs Howard's englishmen, in fielding, his
injury
reoccured and he left test cricket for good.
His career spanned 18 years of which 6 were lost to war & 4 to injury.
In 1963, another blow in ICC ruling took place robbing him of test
captaincy
record and cutting his career from 25 tests to mere 10.
Lala 's career too was cut by this ruling from 34 to 24 tests.

Their rivalry was legendary Merchant was later ...

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