Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Ambrish Sundara » Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:19:04


Heres the Rest of India squad, as annonced, to play against Mumbai in
the upcoming 2003-2004 Irani Trophy:

Sourav Ganguly (captain), Sanjay Bangar, Virender Sehwag, VVS Laxman,
Rahul Dravid, Yuvraj Singh, Parthiv Patel, Zaheer Khan, L Balaji, Amit
Bhandari, Harbhajan Singh, Anil Kumble, Murali Kartik, Rohan Gavaskar

The surprise inclusions are those of Yuvraj Singh and Rohan Gavaskar.
Neither, imho, deserves to be in the squad based on performances in the
longer version of the game.

I had anticipated at least two (if not all three) of Sriram, Gambhir,
and Das to play the game (to check out the openers for the upcoming
international commitments). With Jaffer opening for Mumbai, this may
have been a good "Test" launch pad for the potential openers. This squad
indicates that Bangar and Sehwag are still being looked at as the
openers and that is not the right way to go - definitely not a long-term
solution to the problems with the opening spots.

Also surprising is the omission of Amit Mishra. Kumble is clearly in the
autumn of his career and Mishra is being spoken of as his replacement.
This would have been the ideal time to test him out for the longer
version of the game. I understand that Kumble is still a contender,
especially for Tests on Indian soil. But the series against New Zealand
may be the right time to introduce Amit Mishra and groom him, as opposed
to throwing him against the wolves (reference : the series against
Australia). With Kumble's inclusion, Kartik may have to sit out and that
may not be the best thing to happen. But I guess, that's my personal
bias against Kumble speaking.

Bhandari gets in, I think, based on his domestic performances and the
performance for the "A" squad. I would have liked to see Pathan play
this game. But that again is a marginal call and Pathan may have to wait
for his turn.

Ambrish "Mumbai to win the Irani Trophy" Sundaram

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Uday Raja » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:34:42

Quote:

> Heres the Rest of India squad, as annonced, to play against Mumbai in
> the upcoming 2003-2004 Irani Trophy:

> Sourav Ganguly (captain), Sanjay Bangar, Virender Sehwag, VVS Laxman,
> Rahul Dravid, Yuvraj Singh, Parthiv Patel, Zaheer Khan, L Balaji, Amit
> Bhandari, Harbhajan Singh, Anil Kumble, Murali Kartik, Rohan Gavaskar

> The surprise inclusions are those of Yuvraj Singh and Rohan Gavaskar.
> Neither, imho, deserves to be in the squad based on performances in the
> longer version of the game.

Yuvraj' f.c. performances have been average to poor on the
whole. I think Rohan Gavaskar has done better at the f.c.
level, but at 28 or whatever, he's not a serious long-term
prospect. I'm surprised to see 14 in the squad, instead of
just 12. Why carry around 3 passengers just for the sake of
it? I guess Gavaskar, Kartik, and Bhandari will be doing
drinks duty.

Quote:
> Ambrish "Mumbai to win the Irani Trophy" Sundaram

No such luck. The ROI batting is way too strong, and Bombay
really has no batting to speak of. Tendulkar is returning
from injury, and likely to ease himself back in. Kambli is
always a big question mark. ROI will easily put up 500+, and
Bombay will be lucky to escape with a loss on the first
innings instead of an outright one.

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Mike Holman » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 01:06:02

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:19:04 GMT, Ambrish Sundaram

Quote:
>This squad
>indicates that Bangar and Sehwag are still being looked at as the
>openers and that is not the right way to go - definitely not a long-term
>solution to the problems with the opening spots.

Question: why does the long term matter?

India face Australia away and home over the next seven months, and
should therefore be looking to construct the XI which will have the
best chance of competing with them, not worrying about what the
implications are for some time down the line.

If you believe that two of Das, Sriram, Gambhir and Jaffer are likely
to do better *against Australia* than Sehwag/Bangar, then fine.

And it's worth thinking about what you mean by "better", as well. One
of the things which can help you win a match against Australia is to
upset Glenn McGrath, because he gets riled up and loses his bowling
discipline. A good way of upsetting McGrath is to whack his new ball
spells to the boundary. Sehwag is unlikely to be able to do it every
innings, but if he comes off even a few times it could disturb the
smooth running of the Aussie juggernaut, and that's how you beat them.

You might get a slightly higher average opening partnership out of
having two conventional openers, but with Sehwag you get a potential
big win and with Bangar you get a decent stock bowler to help relieve
the main four while Australia rattle up their customary 600.

Cheers,

Mike

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Shripathi Kamat » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 02:03:49


Quote:
> Heres the Rest of India squad, as annonced, to play against Mumbai in
> the upcoming 2003-2004 Irani Trophy:

> Sourav Ganguly (captain), Sanjay Bangar, Virender Sehwag, VVS Laxman,
> Rahul Dravid, Yuvraj Singh, Parthiv Patel, Zaheer Khan, L Balaji, Amit
> Bhandari, Harbhajan Singh, Anil Kumble, Murali Kartik, Rohan Gavaskar

> The surprise inclusions are those of Yuvraj Singh and Rohan Gavaskar.
> Neither, imho, deserves to be in the squad based on performances in the
> longer version of the game.

> I had anticipated at least two (if not all three) of Sriram, Gambhir,
> and Das to play the game (to check out the openers for the upcoming
> international commitments). With Jaffer opening for Mumbai, this may
> have been a good "Test" launch pad for the potential openers. This squad
> indicates that Bangar and Sehwag are still being looked at as the
> openers and that is not the right way to go - definitely not a long-term
> solution to the problems with the opening spots.

Actually I'd settle for a short-term solution, myself.  The operative word
being solution. :-)  But I agree that this would have been a good time to
try out Gambhir, Das and/or Sriram.  Maybe they get shots via the BP XI
route?

Quote:
> Also surprising is the omission of Amit Mishra. Kumble is clearly in the
> autumn of his career and Mishra is being spoken of as his replacement.
> This would have been the ideal time to test him out for the longer
> version of the game. I understand that Kumble is still a contender,
> especially for Tests on Indian soil. But the series against New Zealand
> may be the right time to introduce Amit Mishra and groom him, as opposed
> to throwing him against the wolves (reference : the series against
> Australia).

I do not agree that Kumble is in the autumn of his career, he is still very
good on Indian tracks as you mention.  Having said that, I agree that
Mishra/Kartik may have been worth a shot in this match.  Still, there is no
way that having played in this match would have given Mishra just the
confidence to face the Aussies later.  Mishra has been on India 'A' tours,
so the exposure is there, just not the experience of Kumble.  It hardly
would matter if they were playing the Aussies.

Quote:
> With Kumble's inclusion, Kartik may have to sit out and that
> may not be the best thing to happen. But I guess, that's my personal
> bias against Kumble speaking.

Probably, especially since Kartik did not do much of note (neither did any
bowler really) on the recent India 'A' tour.

Quote:
> Bhandari gets in, I think, based on his domestic performances and the
> performance for the "A" squad. I would have liked to see Pathan play
> this game. But that again is a marginal call and Pathan may have to wait
> for his turn.

Again, has Pathan been that impressive?

Quote:
> Ambrish "Mumbai to win the Irani Trophy" Sundaram

Well, Aggy and Salvi should lock up spots if Mumbai does.  :-)

--
Shripathi Kamath

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Ambrish Sundara » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:15:27

Quote:

> On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:19:04 GMT, Ambrish Sundaram

>>This squad
>>indicates that Bangar and Sehwag are still being looked at as the
>>openers and that is not the right way to go - definitely not a long-term
>>solution to the problems with the opening spots.

> Question: why does the long term matter?

> India face Australia away and home over the next seven months, and
> should therefore be looking to construct the XI which will have the
> best chance of competing with them, not worrying about what the
> implications are for some time down the line.

> If you believe that two of Das, Sriram, Gambhir and Jaffer are likely
> to do better *against Australia* than Sehwag/Bangar, then fine.

> And it's worth thinking about what you mean by "better", as well. One
> of the things which can help you win a match against Australia is to
> upset Glenn McGrath, because he gets riled up and loses his bowling
> discipline. A good way of upsetting McGrath is to whack his new ball
> spells to the boundary. Sehwag is unlikely to be able to do it every
> innings, but if he comes off even a few times it could disturb the
> smooth running of the Aussie juggernaut, and that's how you beat them.

> You might get a slightly higher average opening partnership out of
> having two conventional openers, but with Sehwag you get a potential
> big win and with Bangar you get a decent stock bowler to help relieve
> the main four while Australia rattle up their customary 600.

The issues here are -

a. Sehwag has expressed the desire to move back to the middle-order. He
was/is a makeshift opener. An unwilling opener is not someone I would
want to pin my hopes on.

b. You have said - "if he comes off even a few times..." - That is a BIG
IF. Sehwag's technique may work well in the shorter version of the game
and he may get away with his minimal footwork and other weaknesses
(example - not-too convincing technique against short-pitched bowling).
With the pitch aiding the bowlers and the ball moving around, I believe
he will be exposed. That is where the long-term prospects come into
play. Gambhir, Jaffer, and Das are regular openers. Yes, each has his
weaknesses. But they need to be given the opportunity to develop. Sehwag
may succeed as an opener in the sub-continent (in Tests and ODIs), but
he cannot be relied upon to deliver the goods, as an opener, in Tests,
especially abroad. The regular openers need to be groomed and that is a
process in itself. The earlier this process begins, the better it will
be for Indian cricket.

c. As for Bangar - I believe that he makes up for his lack of talent
with his grit. He may be a better fit as an opener than Sehwag for the
Tests. And his bowling, while nothing out of the ordinary, is a plus.
Again, he has to compete against the likes of Gambhir, Jaffer etc as
they are regular openers and have done well in the domestics. Bangar has
opened and played in the middle-order. He is a mixed bag, in that respect.

d. You have also talked about the customary 600 that Australia racks up.
The infrequent blitzkriegs of Sehwag and Co., when they occur, will be
good to watch, but will not be sufficient to post a fighting response to
such huge totals. I guess I am from the old school that says that the
batsmen need to grit it out in the Tests and that's the way to get on
the nerves of the bowlers. Bowlers, I believe, prefer to bowl to the
likes of Sehwag, because they (Sehwag and his ilk) always give the
bowler a chance to get their wickets. Bowlers do not like to bowl to
batsmen like Sunil Gavaskar because these batsmen are willing to play
the ball on merit and will wait it out and tire the bowlers out
(mentally and physically). These batsmen believe that there is no harm
in giving the first hour of play to the bowlers before taking over.
India desperately needs such batsmen. We have enough of the flashy ones
- Sehwag, Laxman, and ***yes*** (imho) Tendulkar (more often than not).
It's the gritty ones who are missing and therein lies the problem with
Indian batting.

e. The Australians have openers who are technically sound and can score
runs at good speed. That is not the case with India. India needs batsmen
who stay and contribute to the team total. India should play the game on
its own terms, not that of the Australians.

e. Using Sehwag as an opener may be a good trick to surprise the
opposition, when they are least expecting it. But I am not sure it will
work as a regular strategy.

Ambrish "India's opening problems persist - thanks to the myopic vision
of the selectors and team management" Sundaram

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Shripathi Kamat » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:23:24


<snipped without prejudice>

Excellent post, dude!

Any thoughts on what could have been had they persisted with the last
regular-openers pair India put forth: Das and Ramesh?

--
Shripathi Kamath

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Ambrish Sundara » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:23:52

Quote:

>>Ambrish "Mumbai to win the Irani Trophy" Sundaram

> No such luck. The ROI batting is way too strong, and Bombay
> really has no batting to speak of. Tendulkar is returning
> from injury, and likely to ease himself back in. Kambli is
> always a big question mark. ROI will easily put up 500+, and
> Bombay will be lucky to escape with a loss on the first
> innings instead of an outright one.

The Mumbai batting does not look too strong. But if Tendulkar and Jaffer
get going, the ROI bowlers will find the going tough. Of course Jaffer
has shown the tendency to get out when he seems good to go for a big
score. But he has done well in the past and I wouldn't bet against him.

Also, don't discount the Mumbai bowling. In Salvi, Kulkarni, and
Bahutule they have a good combination. Ramesh Powar has provided good
support to his team in the past, both as a bowler and as a batsman.

Agarkar may be now-hot-now-cold and that is why I am not including him
in the list of the reliable ones. :-)

Ambrish

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Ambrish Sundara » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:44:27

Quote:

> Actually I'd settle for a short-term solution, myself.  The operative word
> being solution. :-)  But I agree that this would have been a good time to
> try out Gambhir, Das and/or Sriram.  Maybe they get shots via the BP XI
> route?

Quite possible. There is also a New Zealand versus India 'A' game
scheduled before the first test. But the Irani Trophy would have been a
good opportunity for these guys to be tried out under lesser pressure,
as opposed to directly playing the New Zealand team. Playing in the
Irani trophy could have helped get them into the right frame of mind and
thereby reduced the pressure on them.

Quote:
> I do not agree that Kumble is in the autumn of his career, he is still very
> good on Indian tracks as you mention.  Having said that, I agree that
> Mishra/Kartik may have been worth a shot in this match.  Still, there is no
> way that having played in this match would have given Mishra just the
> confidence to face the Aussies later.  Mishra has been on India 'A' tours,
> so the exposure is there, just not the experience of Kumble.  It hardly
> would matter if they were playing the Aussies.

And how will Mishra get the experience if we do not play him? Again,
getting him to bowl to batsmen like Tendulkar nad Jaffer would be a good
test of his skills in the longer form of the game. later on, playing him
in the BP XI game or the India 'A' game would have helped him ease into
the team.

With the Indian tracks supposedly getting a facelift (I, for one, don't
believe it, but if for a moment we assume that it is true), Kumble may
be a lesser force. If pitches have indeed been relaid, it makes more
sense to play Mishra, who is supposedly a bigger turner of the ball and
has more variety than Kumble.

Quote:
>>Bhandari gets in, I think, based on his domestic performances and the
>>performance for the "A" squad. I would have liked to see Pathan play
>>this game. But that again is a marginal call and Pathan may have to wait
>>for his turn.

> Again, has Pathan been that impressive?

As I said, a marginal call, imho. Pathan, to me, seems like a player who
is there for the longer-term. But Bhandari has done well in the
domestics and Pathan can wait and not be discouraged.

Ambrish "No solution in sight for the opening problems" Sundaram

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Ambrish Sundara » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 05:11:17

  > Any thoughts on what could have been had they persisted with the last

Quote:
> regular-openers pair India put forth: Das and Ramesh?

Good thought, especially bringing Ramesh back into focus. But apparently
he is not in the selectors' radar and needs to fight his way back with
huge scores in the domestics this year.

Ramesh has done well in the past, but he has also supposedly run afoul
of the management (admin/team management) thanks to his supposed
lackadaisical approach. If he can get around that, then he may find
himself in the reckoning. Unfortunately, in India, once a player runs
afoul of the selectors/admin/team management, his international career
is generally gonners, even if he makes amends later.

Ganguly and Co. delivered some sweet sound-bytes when asked about Ramesh
recently, but I am not sure Ramesh is in serious contention at this
point of time.

But if he did come back into contention, then I would want him to play
as the regular opener. The Das-Ramesh partnership would provide India
with some benefits. In addition to the left-right combination, the
partnership would see the sedate Das as a good foil to Ramesh, the
strokemaker.

Yes Ramesh has scored runs, against the likes of Wasim and Waqar. But he
has to tighten his footwork up. He was caught wanting in the World Cup
in England where the swing bowlers were getting good help from the
conditions. Das has to get over his weaknesses too. But if they both do,
then it would be good combination. But it is all a BIG IF.....

Some food for thought - In some senses, the Gambhir of today is a
version of Ramesh. Isn't it? Especially his loose play outside the offstump?

Ambrish

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Andrew Dunfor » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:03:00


Quote:
> On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:19:04 GMT, Ambrish Sundaram

> >This squad
> >indicates that Bangar and Sehwag are still being looked at as the
> >openers and that is not the right way to go - definitely not a long-term
> >solution to the problems with the opening spots.

> Question: why does the long term matter?

> India face Australia away and home over the next seven months, and
> should therefore be looking to construct the XI which will have the
> best chance of competing with them, not worrying about what the
> implications are for some time down the line.

> If you believe that two of Das, Sriram, Gambhir and Jaffer are likely
> to do better *against Australia* than Sehwag/Bangar, then fine.

> And it's worth thinking about what you mean by "better", as well. One
> of the things which can help you win a match against Australia is to
> upset Glenn McGrath, because he gets riled up and loses his bowling
> discipline. A good way of upsetting McGrath is to whack his new ball
> spells to the boundary.

This seems an unnecessarily complex method, when you could just sledge him
instead.

<snip>

Andrew

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Shripathi Kamat » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:16:52


<snip>

Quote:
> Some food for thought - In some senses, the Gambhir of today is a
> version of Ramesh. Isn't it? Especially his loose play outside the
offstump?

I saw a little bit of him during the TVS cup in Bangla-.  He reminded me
more of Ganguly's expeditions outside the off than Ramesh's :-)

Big difference is that Ramesh has delivered in tests, Gambhir is yet to.  If
he can be even as good as Ramesh, that's a huge win, imo.

I only brought up Ramesh+Das because imo, that was the last set of openers
for India who played a bit together that put up something quit consistently.
On average Dravid did not have to come in until 45 runs were on the board.

It is sad to see one of them out, and the other struggling.

Bangar and Sehwag it is (groan!), with Jaffer maybe having an outside
chance.  Hope that they all do well.  That is a better problem for India to
have -- too many deserving contestants for the opener slots than too few.

--
Shripathi Kamath

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Aditya Basru » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:21:29


Quote:



> <snip>

> > Some food for thought - In some senses, the Gambhir of today is a
> > version of Ramesh. Isn't it? Especially his loose play outside the
> offstump?

> I saw a little bit of him during the TVS cup in Bangla-.  He reminded me
> more of Ganguly's expeditions outside the off than Ramesh's :-)

> Big difference is that Ramesh has delivered in tests, Gambhir is yet to.
If
> he can be even as good as Ramesh, that's a huge win, imo.

> I only brought up Ramesh+Das because imo, that was the last set of openers
> for India who played a bit together that put up something quit
consistently.
> On average Dravid did not have to come in until 45 runs were on the board.

> It is sad to see one of them out, and the other struggling.

> Bangar and Sehwag it is (groan!), with Jaffer maybe having an outside
> chance.  Hope that they all do well.  That is a better problem for India
to
> have -- too many deserving contestants for the opener slots than too few.

But all the same, is Bangar's batting really all that good? Or is he just a
sacrificial lamb, a la Ram Jaane's notion of Parthiv Patel as an opener,
who's expected perhaps to come off once in a while? From what little I've
seen, I'm not convinced that Bangar is any more worthwhile than Vijay
Bharadwaj on a good day.

Aditya [Hoping Jaffer can make it, BTW.] Basrur

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Shripathi Kamat » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:33:52


Quote:




<snip>

Quote:
> But all the same, is Bangar's batting really all that good?

Going by the little evidence we have, he has played a couple of good
supporting knocks.  At Headingley where, in conjunction with Dravid, he
blunted the England attack under trying circumstances, which provided
Tendulkar and Ganguly the luxury of coming in much later than they normally
do, and against WI where he held one end up while the stampede from Sehwag
was on at the other end.

At his best, I envision him playing knocks like the one he did at
Headingley.

Oh, he also had another 50+ score in that series, and also a 100 in tests.

I think that he has shown that he *can* play the role of holding an end up
and delaying the arrival of the middle order.  That will be crucial imo in
Australia, where if SRT comes in at 2/15 and Lee and Gillespie bowling with
their tails up, it will be scary.

Now if Bangar were to hold up one end, and allow Tendulkar to come in even
at 2/50 but with 20-25 overs seen though, and the bowlers a bit tired, it
gives them a fair shot of letting SRT do his thing.

It remains to be seen if he can do it consistently enough, though.  And I
guess that is why Ambrish--rightly so, imo--calls him a mixed bag.  He is
not a specialist opener, he is not consistent, but he has shown that he
*can* do the job.  At least he shows some regard for application.

Quote:
> Or is he just a
> sacrificial lamb, a la Ram Jaane's notion of Parthiv Patel as an opener,
> who's expected perhaps to come off once in a while?

I think he is more like a safe, dull choice if the specialist ones aren't up
to snuff.  Parthiv Patel as an opener is asking for it, imo.  That is too
much pressure on a kid who is still finding his groove.

Quote:
> From what little I've
> seen, I'm not convinced that Bangar is any more worthwhile than Vijay
> Bharadwaj on a good day.

I think he is a lot more valuable than Vijay Bharadwaj, who I cannot recall
to have done much of anything.

Quote:
> Aditya [Hoping Jaffer can make it, BTW.] Basrur

I really think he'll.  I am guessing that if Jaffer hits it big in the Irani
tie, Sehwag's will re-aggravate his injury, and will be sidelined for the
first test, allowing openers to be tried.

--
Shripathi Kamath

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Spaceman Spif » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:34:02

Raising himself from all fours,

bellowed:

Quote:


>> But all the same, is Bangar's batting really all that good?
> [snip]

> At his best, I envision him playing knocks like the one he did at
> Headingley.

> Oh, he also had another 50+ score in that series, and also a 100 in
> tests.
> [snip]

bangar's only two innings of the 2002 series vs england were 68 & 21.

--
stay cool,
Spaceman Spiff

Mister jailer go away now, don't tell me no lies,
Mister jailer go away, don't tell me no lies,
When the train's going down, she's rollin' down the line.

 
 
 

Rest of India squad for Irani Trophy

Post by Shripathi Kamat » Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:08:16


Quote:
> Raising himself from all fours,

> bellowed:


> >> But all the same, is Bangar's batting really all that good?
> > [snip]

> > At his best, I envision him playing knocks like the one he did at
> > Headingley.

> > Oh, he also had another 50+ score in that series, and also a 100 in
> > tests.
> > [snip]

> bangar's only two innings of the 2002 series vs england were 68 & 21.

Sorry, misplaced the para.  I meant to include that after the WI knock
description

--
Shripathi Kamath