Sport Today

Please pardon the somewhat patriotic tone, no doubt induced by Pak's
win, of the following message:

Examining the three most recent one-day cups we have the following
results:

Sharjah Cup 1989: Pak defeats India and WI (twice each) to win the cup.
Nehru Cup 1989: Pak defeats Eng, India, WI, SL to win the cup.
Australasia Cup 1990: Pak defeats NZ, SL, India, Aus to win the cup.

Therefore, it may now be claimed that Pak has the best one-day team
in the world.

From all accounts, Australia was never in the reckoning in this
Australasia final: for most of Pakistan's innings, and after about 8
overs of their own innings, Aus always needed a monumental effort and
were playing catch-up cricket.

In an earlier posting, I had pointed out the problems that Pak had
with Australian umpires. I did not see the matches so my reporting was
based upon what John Woodcock wrote in The Times, what Henry Blofeld
wrote in The Cricketer, and what the ABC commentators said. It is
interesting to speculate what would have happened if neutral umpires
had been used in that series as is the case at Sharjah.

Finally, is it true that Wasim Akram is the only bowler to have two
hat-tricks in 1-day cricket (the first against WI, and now against
Aus)?
--
--shamim

Didn't they just get thrashed (drubbed/killed/embarrased/shamed) by
Australia in the 1989/90 World Series Cup?  And didn't this prompt
Imran Khan to say "Australia is now the second best team in the world
after the West Indies" (as quoted in the Sydney Morning Herald)?

... and ...

Didn't Australia win the World Cup last year (beating *England*)?

Hmmm .... so now let's re-examine the facts.   Pak wins the "Sharjah"
Cup, the "Nehru" Cup and the "Australasia" Cup (played in Sharjah).
They get killed in the World Series Cup and do not place in the
World Cup.  Maybe you should have said:

"Therefore, it may now be claimed that Pak has the best one-day team
in the world *when playing in the Middle East*."

--
  Greg Widdicombe  ---  Up from Down Under        _--_|\
  One of Kipling's "White flannelled fools."     /      \ <-- Brizzo
  [  Look mate, strange women lying in ponds  ]  \_.--._/
  [  is no basis for a system of government.  ]        v

Salman [hitting past the silly point] Azhar

        "For verily God does not change the state of a people
                   unless they themselves change"  

C'mon - give credit where credit is due. Pakistan won fair and square - seems
to me like they have every right to claim to be the best in the world at
present. Australia may have been best in previous years - doesn't mean they
are the best now. You can't live on past glories forever.

Ian Hawthorn

P.S. Shouldn't the quote be " Look mate, strange women lying in ponds
    _dispensing_swords_ is no basis for a sound system of government "

Rajeev
--
Rajeev Raman    

UUCP: ...!{ames,cmcl2,rutgers}!rochester!raman

   Yes ... you *may* claim that Pak has the best one-day team but ....

   Didn't they just get thrashed (drubbed/killed/embarrased/shamed) by
   Australia in the 1989/90 World Series Cup?  And didn't this prompt
   Imran Khan to say "Australia is now the second best team in the world
   after the West Indies" (as quoted in the Sydney Morning Herald)?

   ... and ...

   Didn't Australia win the World Cup last year (beating *England*)?

   Hmmm .... so now let's re-examine the facts.   Pak wins the "Sharjah"
   Cup, the "Nehru" Cup and the "Australasia" Cup (played in Sharjah).
   They get killed in the World Series Cup and do not place in the
   World Cup.  Maybe you should have said:

   "Therefore, it may now be claimed that Pak has the best one-day team
   in the world *when playing in the Middle East*."

You have to read my posting a little more carefully, Greg.

Australia beat England for the world cup at Calcutta in 1987. It
was not last year! You can not live on past glories. Many
international events have taken place since then and Aus has lost in
them.

Yes, Aus beat Pak IN AUS (2-0 in the finals) a few weeks ago. The
point I was making, rather explicitly, was that under neutral umpires
Pakistan beat Aus convincingly, and that it would be interesting to
speculate what would have happened if Aus had used neutral umpires,
so that there wasn't this controversy about the Aus/Pak series. After all
winning 2-0 and then losing convincingly two weeks later is sure to
raise some eyebrows.

Let me repeat my facts again: Since the world cup of 1987, Aus has not
won any 1-day international cup outside of Aus (and in the Australian
world series they have three sides, so it isn't exactly international,
anyway).  Since 1988 Pakistan has won every international event
(the last two of which had Aus in the competition). Everytime since
1987, Pak has beaten Aus outside of Aus.

What does this tell us? Perhaps simply that Aus is very
good at home!  Reminds one of NZ not losing a test series in NZ for
the last ten years and look at their record outside of NZ!

Finally, allow me to re-state my claim as follows: In 1989 WI were the
acknowledged 1-day champions. They had beaten everybody, even Aus in
Aus. The last two international cups that they have played, they've lost
to Pakistan.

--
--shamim

   ...I think the Middle East is probably the best
   place for Pakistan to be playing in: they have playing conditions similar  
   to those at home, they have a large and vociferous following and presumably
   they don't even have to face the "feet of clay" syndrome that affects any
   team playing at home in front of an idolizing crowd. Ie, like home, only
   better, so a win at Sharjah for Pakistan should be the equivalent of a win
   at home: creditable, but not nearly as nice as a win on the road.

   Rajeev

1. There are more indians at Sharjah than Pakistanis.

2. Over the last few years Pakistan has beaten India in India in front
of large, vociferous pro-indian crowds in tests and one day matches.
Think of the Nehru cup match at Eden Gardens with India where Pakistan
had to win to qualify for the semis.

3. Pakistan beat Eng in Eng.

4. Pakistan played the WI to a 1-1 tie in the WI.

Seems like a nice on the road record to me. The only blemish on this
record is the loss to Aus.
--
--shamim

)) >Didn't they just get thrashed (drubbed/killed/embarrased/shamed) by
)) >Australia in the 1989/90 World Series Cup?  And didn't this prompt
))
)) I would lie to point something out. Pak beat aus convicnigly in two
)) matches out of 6. It is another thing that with such high stakes, it
)) would not be profitable to let Pak win in Aus. So, umpires are FORCED
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
)) to cheat etc. BTW, let us ignore how teams perform at home and look
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
)) toward nuetral grounds....

I thought only Indian umpires cheated. Now the Aussies too, eh ?

I have a question. Does this imply that when stakes are high, cheating
routinely takes place ? Does Pakistan cheat in such cases, or is it
just the others ?

Pakistan has had a great one-day side for years. Today they are one of
the better teams, without doubt. But to claim that everyone else cheats
to win, is *NOT* patriotism. It is silly.

))
))
)) Salman [hitting past the silly point] Azhar
))
))

Rajeev Menon

   )) >Didn't they just get thrashed (drubbed/killed/embarrased/shamed) by
   )) >Australia in the 1989/90 World Series Cup?  And didn't this prompt
   ))
   )) I would lie to point something out. Pak beat aus convicnigly in two
   )) matches out of 6. It is another thing that with such high stakes, it
   )) would not be profitable to let Pak win in Aus. So, umpires are FORCED
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   )) to cheat etc. BTW, let us ignore how teams perform at home and look
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   )) toward nuetral grounds....

   I thought only Indian umpires cheated. Now the Aussies too, eh ?

   I have a question. Does this imply that when stakes are high, cheating
   routinely takes place ? Does Pakistan cheat in such cases, or is it
   just the others ?

   Pakistan has had a great one-day side for years. Today they are one of
   the better teams, without doubt. But to claim that everyone else cheats
   to win, is *NOT* patriotism. It is silly.

   ))
   ))
   )) Salman [hitting past the silly point] Azhar
   ))
   ))

   Rajeev Menon

Rajeev:

I have included your posting above in its entirety. Please note that
the following statement  

   )) I would lie to point something out. Pak beat aus convicnigly in two
   )) matches out of 6. It is another thing that with such high stakes, it
   )) would not be profitable to let Pak win in Aus. So, umpires are FORCED
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   )) to cheat etc. BTW, let us ignore how teams perform at home and look
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   )) toward nuetral grounds....

was not a part of my message.  You cite Salman Azhar's name at the
bottom but the top portion of your message misleadingly associates my
name with this message. Please be careful with your citations.

--shamim

--
--shamim