Serious question.
Twenty four ***ing years, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times this loser has guided the team home (in a win or a draw).
by Howzza » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 03:40:57
Twenty four ***ing years, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times this loser has guided the team home (in a win or a draw).
by skp » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 08:41:05
Serious response.
For whatever reason, you seem to have a go at his 4th innings digs every time he fails (even if the failure was inconsequential as it was in this instance as the game was already won by the time he came in) and are wholly silent when he actually plays an instrumental 4th innings knock in a win or draw.
He has had 60 4th innings appearances in his career. He has 16 not outs in those 60 at-bats (so already one wonders how many fingers you possess :-)
And despite his recent failures over the past 18 months - and yes, it's time for him to retire - his record in 4th innings over the last 5 years has actually been pretty good (i.e your complaint may have been more valid in the early part of his career). Take a look at his 4th innings digs from and after the Bangalore test in October 2008. There are some very good contributions in that list. Even the 14 not out against RSA in Cape Town was a very good contribution having batted for 2.5 hours to help get the draw.
Is he at or near the best for 4th innings knocks? Of course not. Guys like Smith, Ponting etc. have done better. But I would say that he has done as well or better than some other ATGs like Richards, Lara, Gavaskar etc. I seem to recall that you and I had a discussion about this a couple of years ago where I did a crude comparative analysis of various ATGs (of 4th innings significant knocks i.e. match saving or match winning 4th innings knocks).
All that said, it would have been nice to see him remain not out in Delhi for I believe that he has played his last test.
skp
by Howzza » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 09:39:19
> > Serious question. Twenty four ***ing years, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times this loser has guided the team home (in a win or a draw).
> http://SportToday.org/;fil...
> Serious response.
> For whatever reason, you seem to have a go at his 4th innings digs every time he fails (even if the failure was inconsequential as it was in this instance as the game was already won by the time he came in) and are wholly silent when he actually plays an instrumental 4th innings knock in a win or draw.
> He has had 60 4th innings appearances in his career. He has 16 not outs in those 60 at-bats (so already one wonders how many fingers you possess :-)
> And despite his recent failures over the past 18 months - and yes, it's time for him to retire - his record in 4th innings over the last 5 years has actually been pretty good (i.e your complaint may have been more valid in the early part of his career). Take a look at his 4th innings digs from and after the Bangalore test in October 2008. There are some very good contributions in that list. Even the 14 not out against RSA in Cape Town was a very good contribution having batted for 2.5 hours to help get the draw.
> Is he at or near the best for 4th innings knocks? Of course not. Guys like Smith, Ponting etc. have done better. But I would say that he has done as well or better than some other ATGs like Richards, Lara, Gavaskar etc. I seem to recall that you and I had a discussion about this a couple of years ago where I did a crude comparative analysis of various ATGs (of 4th innings significant knocks i.e. match saving or match winning 4th innings knocks).
> All that said, it would have been nice to see him remain not out in Delhi for I believe that he has played his last test.
> skp
Look, I seriously believe that Tendulkar is (and has always been) a mentally weak Test batsman (note that I am talking Tests only). I know you and others will point to the 50 Test hundreds and all that, but I continue to believe that he has seriously underachieved relative to the talent he had, and the early start he got to his Test career. Forget the 4th innings performance, how many Tests do you think he has helped win overseas? During the 1990s when he was supposedly at his peak, and the second coming of Bradman, India won a grand total on ONE test overseas in the entire decade - that too in Sri Lanka. Sure I understand that it's a team game, but for some some considered to be the best of all time, is it too much to expect a few single-handed match-winning knocks in 24 years? Lara played for a much weaker team and has more to show in a far shorter Test career.
Yes, he should retire. An year or so ago I might have shed a tear or two when that happened but now the feeling of relief and good-riddance will overwhelm any other.
By the way, while I am ranting, let me also suggest that SRT has got to be the most self-centered individual you could hope to find in any team game. In periods of significant change for the team over the years, with Dravid and now Pujara forced to open the batting, Laxman shuttled all over the place in the batting line-up, now Kohli being asked to bat at #3, the one constant has been SRT's holy #4 spot. You are a pretty reasonable guy skp, so justify this one for me.
At the end of the day, I guess SRT fanatics (not you!)are getting what they deserve. It is sickening to see the cheers when the guy as much as fields a ball, while the real performances by others in the middle go relatively unrecognized. As far as I am concerned, we (if I may be allowed to use "we" to represent India and the fans of its cricket team) have long repaid Tendulkar's debts from the 1990s - it is time to cut the cord.
by willsutto » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:01:59
> Twenty four ***ing years, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times this loser has guided the team home (in a win or a draw).
by Howzza » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 11:28:56
> > Serious question.
> > Twenty four ***ing years, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times this loser has guided the team home (in a win or a draw).
> mate, he is one of the all time greats and deserves RESPECT
People who keep going on about his 24 years, 198 Tests etc. fail to realize that he has played for so long because he has been allowed to. In Australia or England, where the game is bigger than the individual, he would have been dropped several times over. Perhaps as far back as in 2006.
by Southpa » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 13:41:55
> > > Serious question.
> > > Twenty four ***ing years, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times this loser has guided the team home (in a win or a draw).
> > mate, he is one of the all time greats and deserves RESPECT
> I know, and we have given him plenty over the years. Like I said, he has run out of credits, and then some. He owes us, the fans, some respect and walk away as nobody in India has the balls to even ask him to bat at a position other than #4, let alone drop him.
> People who keep going on about his 24 years, 198 Tests etc. fail to realize that he has played for so long because he has been allowed to. In Australia or England, where the game is bigger than the individual, he would have been dropped several times over. Perhaps as far back as in 2006.
In retrospect, I wouldn't criticize anything that happened in Indian cricket during the 2000s, a decade in which India rose from #8 to freaking world champions.
Even the Greg Chappell years might have been a blessing in disguise, and his attitude wound up Zaheer, Sehwag, and Ganguly to come back with a vengeance.
-Samarth.
by skp » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 14:15:37
> > > Serious question. Twenty four ***ing years, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times this loser has guided the team home (in a win or a draw).
> > http://SportToday.org/;fil...
> > Serious response.
> > For whatever reason, you seem to have a go at his 4th innings digs every time he fails (even if the failure was inconsequential as it was in this instance as the game was already won by the time he came in) and are wholly silent when he actually plays an instrumental 4th innings knock in a win or draw.
> > He has had 60 4th innings appearances in his career. He has 16 not outs in those 60 at-bats (so already one wonders how many fingers you possess :-)
> > And despite his recent failures over the past 18 months - and yes, it's time for him to retire - his record in 4th innings over the last 5 years has actually been pretty good (i.e your complaint may have been more valid in the early part of his career). Take a look at his 4th innings digs from and after the Bangalore test in October 2008. There are some very good contributions in that list. Even the 14 not out against RSA in Cape Town was a very good contribution having batted for 2.5 hours to help get the draw.
> > Is he at or near the best for 4th innings knocks? Of course not. Guys like Smith, Ponting etc. have done better. But I would say that he has done as well or better than some other ATGs like Richards, Lara, Gavaskar etc. I seem to recall that you and I had a discussion about this a couple of years ago where I did a crude comparative analysis of various ATGs (of 4th innings significant knocks i.e. match saving or match winning 4th innings knocks).
> > All that said, it would have been nice to see him remain not out in Delhi for I believe that he has played his last test.
> > skp
> You are correct in that I tend to lash out when he fails in the 4th innings. Thanks for the analysis - if anything I think it proves my point. If we start counting innings like the one in the first Test where he he came in with the team needing 20 odd to win and scored 13*, of course I'll have to start using the fingers on my other hand (maybe even my toes). But surely you get the point - both here and in that last Test in Mohali where there was a potentially tense situation he failed. This is in fact so predictable that any relative success has to be seen as an exception. And don't forget that he has had more chances than anyone else (198 Tests, for crying out loud), and off the top of my head I can recall only 2 really significant 4th innings knocks - the match saving innings against England in 1990 (his first Test hundred) and the hundred against the same team in Chennai 2008. For someone hailed by his fans as the next thing (or better than) Don Bradman that is some serious underachievement.
> Look, I seriously believe that Tendulkar is (and has always been) a mentally weak Test batsman (note that I am talking Tests only). I know you and others will point to the 50 Test hundreds and all that, but I continue to believe that he has seriously underachieved relative to the talent he had, and the early start he got to his Test career. Forget the 4th innings performance, how many Tests do you think he has helped win overseas? During the 1990s when he was supposedly at his peak, and the second coming of Bradman, India won a grand total on ONE test overseas in the entire decade - that too in Sri Lanka. Sure I understand that it's a team game, but for some some considered to be the best of all time, is it too much to expect a few single-handed match-winning knocks in 24 years? Lara played for a much weaker team and has more to show in a far shorter Test career.
> Yes, he should retire. An year or so ago I might have shed a tear or two when that happened but now the feeling of relief and good-riddance will overwhelm any other.
> By the way, while I am ranting, let me also suggest that SRT has got to be the most self-centered individual you could hope to find in any team game. In periods of significant change for the team over the years, with Dravid and now Pujara forced to open the batting, Laxman shuttled all over the place in the batting line-up, now Kohli being asked to bat at #3, the one constant has been SRT's holy #4 spot. You are a pretty reasonable guy skp, so justify this one for me.
> At the end of the day, I guess SRT fanatics (not you!)are getting what they deserve. It is sickening to see the cheers when the guy as much as fields a ball, while the real performances by others in the middle go relatively unrecognized. As far as I am concerned, we (if I may be allowed to use "we" to represent India and the fans of its cricket team) have long repaid Tendulkar's debts from the 1990s - it is time to cut the cord.
http://SportToday.org/;fil...
Lara has played 46 4th innings knocks with 5 not outs. Lara's stats in 4th innings knocks were the Windies won or drew are set out above.
He has had 5 knocks that could be said to be instrumental in wins or draws. The 5 knocks are 48*, 80*, 86, 153*, and the 60 (though the Windies had two other guys make tons in that innings)
As for SRT, he has had 60 4th innings at-bats with 16 not outs.
In wins and draws, Tendulkar's 4th innings stats are set out below:
http://SportToday.org/;fil...
His significant knocks amount to about 7.
They include the 119*, 56*, 49, 103*, 54, 53*, 14* (against RSA in Cape Town), and 76.
Unfortunately, his best knock ever (136 against Pak) doesn't make the list.
But overall, the above crude analysis would suggest that he compares well with Lara (and no one ever suggests that Lara is a choker; granted, no one also suggests that he is better than Bradman like some do about SRT).
I am going to suggest - without looking it up - that Gavaskar, Greg Chappell, Sanga, and Kallis won't have had a greater number of significant 4th innings knocks (even when normalized). I am pretty sure that Smith and Ponting will have a greater number of such knocks. Maybe even Hayden.
But I stand corrected on where these other chaps rank.
As for the undeserved praise showered on SRT. I have long maintained that SRT gets way more credit than he deserves. For example, it was absolutely nuts of the Delhi crowd to cheer Kohli's dismissal so that they can see SRT bat.
On the other hand, SRT's failures also get put under the microscope more than any either player. For example, no one criticizes Lara et al for his 4th innings numbers (average is about 35) but they do take potshots against SRT's numbers even though he compares well with Lara.
As for lack of overseas wins, it is a team game as you have acknowledged. India's bowlers pretty well sucked overseas during SRT's glory years. When their bowling got a little better (and some batting support emerged on overseas wickets), India did get some overseas test wins and even series wins and draws. SRT no doubt played a very strong role in the series draw against RSA and an important role in the series win against England. He also did his part in Sydney 2004 - enough to get a series win but the toothless Indian bowling and an obdurate Steve Waugh got in the way. It is a matter of luck and timing too. If Agarkar took his 6-fer in I4 Sydney as opposed to I3 Adelaide in 2003, SRT would have been the hero in that series rather than Dravid.
As for sticking to his No. 4 spot, I don't think it was a big deal at all until perhaps now. i.e., if he decides to continue to play and the selectors let him, it is clear to me that he should drop down to at least #5 and Kohli should move up to No. 4.
But until now, I have never felt that India's strength as a team was in some way compromised by SRT remaining at No. 4 and not moving to 1, 2, 3 or 5. Besides, I have heard no indication from any corner that the Indian think thank asked SRT to move from No. 4 and he refused.
And there have been occasions (i.e., special situations other than nigh***chman situations), where he has been moved from No. 4. I recall when he came in at No. 6 when India decided to go for a win against England (IIRC, in 2005 or 2006) late on day 5 when it was clear for most of the day that they were playing for the draw. Flintoff was captaining England then. I can't recall the Indian captain (might have been Dravid filling in for an injured Ganguly). Anyway, a faster scorer was sent in ahead of SRT. Yes, that was a one-off but he presumably was told "hey, this other guy would be a better pick than you for his situation" and SRT presumably agreed and obliged).
skp
by willsutto » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 15:15:55
>>> Serious question.
>>> Twenty four ***ing years, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times this loser has guided the team home (in a win or a draw).
>> mate, he is one of the all time greats and deserves RESPECT
> I know, and we have given him plenty over the years. Like I said, he has run out of credits, and then some. He owes us, the fans, some respect and walk away as nobody in India has the balls to even ask him to bat at a position other than #4, let alone drop him.
> People who keep going on about his 24 years, 198 Tests etc. fail to realize that he has played for so long because he has been allowed to. In Australia or England, where the game is bigger than the individual, he would have been dropped several times over. Perhaps as far back as in 2006.
by vijaykum.. » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 16:42:41
> > > > Serious question. Twenty four ***ing years, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times this loser has guided the team home (in a win or a draw).
> > >http://SportToday.org/;fil...
> > > Serious response.
> > > For whatever reason, you seem to have a go at his 4th innings digs every time he fails (even if the failure was inconsequential as it was in this instance as the game was already won by the time he came in) and are wholly silent when he actually plays an instrumental 4th innings knock in a win or draw.
> > > He has had 60 4th innings appearances in his career. ?He has 16 not outs in those 60 at-bats (so already one wonders how many fingers you possess :-)
> > > And despite his recent failures over the past 18 months - and yes, it's time for him to retire - his record in 4th innings over the last 5 years has actually been pretty good (i.e your complaint may have been more valid in the early part of his career). ?Take a look at his 4th innings digs from and after the Bangalore test in October 2008. ?There are some very good contributions in that list. ?Even the 14 not out against RSA in Cape Town was a very good contribution having batted for 2.5 hours to help get the draw.
> > > Is he at or near the best for 4th innings knocks? ?Of course not. ?Guys like Smith, Ponting etc. have done better. ?But I would say that he has done as well or better than some other ATGs like Richards, Lara, Gavaskar etc. I seem to recall that you and I had a discussion about this a couple of years ago where I did a crude comparative analysis of various ATGs (of 4th innings significant knocks i.e. match saving or match winning 4th innings knocks).
> > > All that said, it would have been nice to see him remain not out in Delhi for I believe that he has played his last test.
> > > skp
> > You are correct in that I tend to lash out when he fails in the 4th innings. Thanks for the analysis - if anything I think it proves my point. If we start counting innings like the one in the first Test where he he came in with the team needing 20 odd to win and scored 13*, of course I'll have to start using the fingers on my other hand (maybe even my toes). But surely you get the point - both here and in that last Test in Mohali where there was a potentially tense situation he failed. This is in fact so predictable that any relative success has to be seen as an exception. And don't forget that he has had more chances than anyone else (198 Tests, for crying out loud), and off the top of my head I can recall only 2 really significant 4th innings knocks - the match saving innings against England in 1990 (his first Test hundred) and the hundred against the same team in Chennai 2008. For someone hailed by his fans as the next thing (or better than) Don Bradman that is some serious underachievement.
> > Look, I seriously believe that Tendulkar is (and has always been) a mentally weak Test batsman (note that I am talking Tests only). I know you and others will point to the 50 Test hundreds and all that, but I continue to believe that he has seriously underachieved relative to the talent he had, and the early start he got to his Test career. Forget the 4th innings performance, how many Tests do you think he has helped win overseas? During the 1990s when he was supposedly at his peak, and the second coming of Bradman, India won a grand total on ONE test overseas in the entire decade - that too in Sri Lanka. Sure I understand that it's a team game, but for some some considered to be the best of all time, is it too much to expect a few single-handed match-winning knocks in 24 years? Lara played for a much weaker team and has more to show in a far shorter Test career.
> > Yes, he should retire. An year or so ago I might have shed a tear or two when that happened but now ?the feeling of relief and good-riddance will overwhelm any other.
> > By the way, while I am ranting, let me also suggest that SRT has got to be the most self-centered individual you could hope to find in any team game. In periods of significant change for the team over the years, with Dravid and now Pujara forced to open the batting, Laxman shuttled all over the place in the batting line-up, now Kohli being asked to bat at #3, the one constant has been SRT's holy #4 spot. You are a pretty reasonable guy skp, so justify this one for me.
> > At the end of the day, I guess SRT fanatics (not you!)are getting what they deserve. It is sickening to see the cheers when the guy as much as fields a ball, while the real performances by others in the middle go relatively unrecognized. As far as I am concerned, we (if I may be allowed to use "we" to represent India and the fans of its cricket team) have long repaid Tendulkar's debts from the 1990s - it is time to cut the cord.
> I will just throw out some random comments in response. ?I don't have time right now to make the post read better.
> http://SportToday.org/;fil...
> Lara has played 46 4th innings knocks with 5 not outs. ?Lara's stats in 4th innings knocks were the Windies won or drew are set out above.
> He has had 5 knocks that could be said to be instrumental in wins or draws. ?The 5 knocks are 48*, 80*, 86, 153*, and the 60 (though the Windies had two other guys make tons in that innings)
> As for SRT, he has had 60 4th innings at-bats with 16 not outs.
> In wins and draws, Tendulkar's 4th innings stats are set out below:
> http://SportToday.org/;fil...
> His significant knocks amount to about 7.
> They include the 119*, 56*, 49, 103*, 54, 53*, 14* (against RSA in Cape Town), and 76.
> Unfortunately, his best knock ever (136 against Pak) doesn't make the list.
> But overall, the above crude analysis would suggest that he compares well with Lara (and no one ever suggests that Lara is a choker; granted, no one also suggests that he is better than Bradman like some do about SRT).
> I am going to suggest - without looking it up - that Gavaskar, Greg Chappell, Sanga, and Kallis won't have had a greater number of significant 4th innings knocks (even when normalized). ?I am pretty sure that Smith and Ponting will have a greater number of such knocks. ?Maybe even Hayden.
> But I stand corrected on where these other chaps rank.
> As for the undeserved praise showered on SRT. I have long maintained that SRT gets way more credit than he deserves. ?For example, it was absolutely nuts of the Delhi crowd to cheer Kohli's dismissal so that they can see SRT bat.
> On the other hand, SRT's failures also get put under the microscope more than any either player. ?For example, no one criticizes Lara et al for his 4th innings numbers (average is about 35) but they do take potshots against SRT's numbers even though he compares well with Lara.
> As for lack of overseas wins, it is a team game as you have acknowledged. ?India's bowlers pretty well sucked overseas during SRT's glory years. ?When their bowling got a little better (and some batting support emerged on overseas wickets), India did get some overseas test wins and even series wins and draws. ?SRT no doubt played a very strong role in the series draw against RSA and an important role in the series win against England. ?He also did his part in Sydney 2004 - enough to get a series win but the toothless Indian bowling and an obdurate Steve Waugh got in the way. ?It is a matter of luck and timing too. ?If Agarkar took his 6-fer in I4 Sydney as opposed to I3 Adelaide in 2003, SRT would have been the hero in that series rather than Dravid.
> As for sticking to his No. 4 spot, I don't think it was a big deal at all until perhaps now. ?i.e., if he decides to continue to play and the selectors let him, it is clear to me that he should drop down to at least #5 and Kohli should move up to No. 4.
> But until now, I have never felt that India's strength as a team was in some way compromised by SRT remaining at No. 4 and not moving to 1, 2, 3 or 5. ?Besides, I have heard no indication from any corner that the Indian think thank asked SRT to move from No. 4 and he refused.
> And there have been occasions (i.e., special situations other than nigh***chman situations), where he has been moved from No. 4. I recall when he came in at No. 6 when India decided to go for a win against England (IIRC, in 2005 or 2006) late on day 5 when it was clear for most of the day that they were playing for the draw. ?Flintoff was captaining England then. ? I can't recall the Indian ?captain (might have been Dravid filling in for an injured Ganguly). ?Anyway, a faster scorer was sent in ahead of SRT. ?Yes, that was a one-off but he presumably was told "hey, this other guy would be a better pick than you for his situation" and SRT presumably agreed and obliged).
> skp- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
SRT has also opened once in his career when India were
looking for quick runs. AFAIR, it did not come off.
Vijay
by Who Care » Thu, 04 Apr 2013 01:59:27
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filt...
by alve » Thu, 04 Apr 2013 04:02:45
by eusebiu » Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:17:33
> In retrospect, I wouldn't criticize anything that happened in Indian cricket during the 2000s, a decade in which India rose from #8 to freaking world champions.
1. India are bigger chokers than South Africa - Gavaskar
2. South Africa will put champion-or-choker Tendulkar to the ultimate test
3. Why Tendulkar is bigger than Woods or Federer
4. Chokers? New Zealand are chokers
5. I am nowhere near the final stop yet: Tendulkar
6. I am worried about future of test cricket
7. I am sorry Mr. Tendulkar..you are selfish in some sort of way
8. Glenn McGrath - "I am scared of Sachin so I am pretending to be injured"
9. Ins and Outs
10. How flat ins that Chennai pitch and what usually happens on Day 3 or 4?
11. INS NZ - 3ODI - LATEST (NZ after 42 overs) !!!
12. Ring-ins in WC99
13. I am the real Anonymous and I am a paki fan