England - enough is enough

England - enough is enough

Post by Rod Sta » Thu, 15 Dec 1994 02:02:24



Quote:
>Having watched more depressing news filter in over Ceefax this morning
>I've had just about enough of this *** and I'm fed up defending those
>spineless mercenaries out there who masquerade as the English cricket team.

         <some excellent suggestions deleted>

Quote:
>What do all the other English/British netters think ?
>--Tim

Well, here's my rather long two cents worth:

It does all seem very depressing.  Maybe some miracle will occur and
England will win a test somewhere along the line this winter, but it doesn't
look that likely right now.  What is really depressing is that, for the most
part, we can't even use the traditonal excuse of "if only so-and-so were
available" as we could during the Packer years and the illegal RSA tours.  If
only we haddened been constantly having to ban all the best players, we would
have been pretty good during the late 70s and 80s . :-)

Anyway, I was looking back through Cricinfo at all the recent test series
involving England and it really does look like the core of the current team is
the best we've got right now.  There seem to have been any number of
batsman selected for a few tests who achieved very little.  I don't
know that any of the other available batsman would be better than the top five
of Atherton, Stewart, Gooch, Hick, and Thorpe.  I would probably have
preferred Smith (based on his record--you can't be all bad with a test average
like he has) to Gatting or Crawley, and I certainly wish Gower was still
playing, but I also wish we still had Boycott or Barrington or Hutton or WG
Grace, etc., etc., so that gets us nowhere.

For the bowling, I was horrified to see that the best of our main bowlers
has a test average close to 30 and the rest are much worse.  But then again,
Malcolm is fast, De Freitas showed form last summer, Fraser has the most
consistent record and Gough shows promise (we hope)--so who else would you
prefer? (not McCague)  For the spinners, I don't know much about Tufnell and
Udall, But who else?  Is Emburey still playing?  If so he must be well into
his 40s by now.  

I think one big problem is that since the mid-70s when England was lucky
enough to have first Greig, then Botham, we've been obsessed with fielding an
all-rounder at no. 6--with the result that a number of very mediocre "useful"
players have been used none of whom were good enough as a bowler or a
batsman to make the test side (White seems to be the latest example).  As long
as you've got some bowlers who can bat a bit at numbers 8, 9, and (hopefully)
10 and you have a couple of batsmen who can combine to make a fifth bowler
(Hick and Gooch should be adequate), it's better to pick a specialist batsman
at no. 6 (and that doesn't mean Gatting) unless you really have a true class
all-rounder.

So I think that for the short term we have to bear it with the core of this
team for now.  They do seem better than any alternative available.  But for
the long term, I agree that a lot of fundamental changes are needed to
English cricket.

I would suggest some or all of the following:

1.  Cricket academy--obviously

2.  Cut down on limited over games. Preferably s***the Sunday league, but I
also noticed that there are now all kinds of minor counties, etc., playing in
one of the other competitions, which means more time for the best players
to waste against inferior opponents.  It's been said so many times, but it's
true that so many of the current batsman think that after they've scored an
entertaining 30 or 40 their job is done.  We need batsman who can bat all day,
and (at least until we're competitive again) who gives a s**t if it's boring.

3.  Cut down the the county championship by dividing into two geographical
divisions where teams play each other once (4-day games).  The winners of each
division play each other for the championship. (The benefit is that you can
cut down on games without "demoting" any team as you would with a first and
second division.)

4.  With all the days that are saved by thus cutting back the schedule, add an
additional regional championship of four geographical teams to play each other
twice (4-day games).  Regional teams would be selected ideally by selection
committees from the counties they represent (so as avoid any silly
experimentation by the England selectors and provide some sort of genuine
regional rivalry).  

The last idea is intended to provide a level of cricket between the current
county game and test level where there would be serious competition and
players would have a  natural progression to move up to the test
side.  The level would hopefully be eventually equivalent to the Sheffield
Shield teams in Australia.

But for now, congratulations Aussies.  You seem to be winning on talent,
enthusiasm, and organization.  I just hope we can turn it around one day.

 
 
 

England - enough is enough

Post by Tim Addison - Sun UK - Senior Systems Engine » Wed, 14 Dec 1994 20:21:54

Having watched more depressing news filter in over Ceefax this morning
I've had just about enough of this *** and I'm fed up defending those
spineless mercenaries out there who masquerade as the English cricket team.

Clearly the state of English cricket is in a mess, I hope now that Australia
dish out more hammerings over the coming two months it will be good for us
in the long run, or will it...

Last week the TCCB met to discuss the state of the English game. What might
be the main talking point... how to set up a suitable structure to attract and
nurture talent into the game maybe, or how to restructure the county championship
to increase the intensity of county matches. Well apparently not. What they
actually discussed was how they can prepare county wickets to encourage spin
bowlers, and they are still not sure whether or not an English cricket academy
(on the lines of the Australian one) would be a good idea, they are sending
someone out on an all expenses trip to check it out (at least 5 years after
we first heard about it). Ray Illingworths idea of two divisions was thrown out
by the counties (surprise, surprise noone is going to want to be relegated).

Someone needs to tell these old duffers who run our cricket to remove their
heads from another part of their anatomy and wake up to reality. I would like
to see a new structure setup much akin to the way Rugby Union has reorganised
and a change to the domestic competitions.

I would like to see the Sunday league dropped altogether as being useless for
the development of the game in this country. I would like to see the county
championship being organised into two groups of 8 teams with a round robin
of 4 day games. the top two teams from each group would then go through to
the semis, and finally a 5 day play off at Lords in the final.

We also need to set up an Australian style cricket academy probably based at
Lords with, off shoots in other parts of the country.

What do all the other English/British netters think ?

--Tim

 
 
 

England - enough is enough

Post by Dave Robinso » Thu, 15 Dec 1994 18:54:23

Quote:
> Having watched more depressing news filter in over Ceefax this morning
> I've had just about enough of this *** and I'm fed up defending those
> spineless mercenaries out there who masquerade as the English cricket team.

and after the debacle versus AIS we get a win against australia A ...
there's too much of the `just-in-time' (or `just-too-late') performances
from english cricketers these days - a habit possibly picked up from
the end of english season bash we traditionally see as players see
the winter coming and finally pick up on the idea there's some spon
to be picked up if they get picked for the national squad.  i'm loath
to use such a thatcherite word - but, hell's flames, cricket is a
**c o m p e t e t i v e** sport - and there just doesn't seem to be so
much competition for places amongst the english players: why?

is it the old boy network of fat rich old white men who pick the
`right sort' ?  illingworth was supposed to be the end of this, but
who goes to australia but gooch & gatting - hardly new ***.  maybe
the players don't bother pushing themselves because they know that
performance is only half of the ticket in - look at how poor old
graham thorpe was left out after a promising debut ...

some system that rewards talent is needed.  some system that develops
players is needed.  and some system that keeps the edge is needed.

what do you reckon ?

cheers - dave

 
 
 

England - enough is enough

Post by Tim Addison - Sun UK - Senior Systems Engine » Thu, 15 Dec 1994 20:55:32


Quote:
> Anyway, I was looking back through Cricinfo at all the recent test series
> involving England and it really does look like the core of the current team is
> the best we've got right now.  There seem to have been any number of
> batsman selected for a few tests who achieved very little.  I don't
> know that any of the other available batsman would be better than the top five
> of Atherton, Stewart, Gooch, Hick, and Thorpe.  I would probably have
> preferred Smith (based on his record--you can't be all bad with a test average

I agree with this also. The 16 out there are probably the best we've got.
Maybe only Benjamin could consifer himself lucky to be there. I too would
have preferred Smith to Gatting, but the Shane Warne factor and his weakness
against spin forced the selectors hands. There have been murmurings in the
press about the lack of a second left hander to combat Warne, but the reality
is the best batsmen we have are out there.

Tim

 
 
 

England - enough is enough

Post by Tim Addison - Sun UK - Senior Systems Engine » Thu, 15 Dec 1994 20:51:34


Quote:
> It does all seem very depressing.  Maybe some miracle will occur and
> England will win a test somewhere along the line this winter, but it doesn't
> look that likely right now.  What is really depressing is that, for the most
> part, we can't even use the traditonal excuse of "if only so-and-so were
> available" as we could during the Packer years and the illegal RSA tours.  If

This is an interesting point. I actually think that the Packer rebel series
shielded a lot of the problems with the English system, because all of the
major test sides were weakened to a much greater extent than the English
team.

We probably haven't had a really decent test side since the 60's, and today
we are left in the position where we look to overseas born and trained players
to bolster our weakened international side.

Tim

 
 
 

England - enough is enough

Post by Shamim Naq » Sat, 17 Dec 1994 04:25:28

Just heard that England lost to Zim at the WSC. (Wasn't there an RSC
article a few days ago which said that England will lose to every team
from A to Z!) Apparently, Zim has a leg spinner who did the damage
after a good start by Gooch and Atherton.

--

Shamim

 
 
 

England - enough is enough

Post by Tim Addison - Sun UK - Senior Systems Engine » Fri, 16 Dec 1994 21:35:00


Quote:
> what do you reckon ?

> cheers - dave

I reckon you are right. I have to disagree with you about Gooch though. I still
think he is probably the best batsman we have.

--Tim

 
 
 

England - enough is enough

Post by Tippu Hass » Sat, 17 Dec 1994 13:35:05


Quote:
>Just heard that England lost to Zim at the WSC. (Wasn't there an RSC
>article a few days ago which said that England will lose to every team
>from A to Z!) Apparently, Zim has a leg spinner who did the damage
>after a good start by Gooch and Atherton.

Zim spinners are below par if u ask me. Their pacers on the other hand, esp
Heath Streak, are very good. Havn't seen much of Brain as yet so can't really
comment on him.
Incidently, the ZIM captain said the other day the pakistani public loved us
because they can see that we enjoy playing cricket. Thats our approach to the
game.

Quote:
>--

>Shamim

Tippu badshah...Go the mighty Zimbabweans!
 
 
 

England - enough is enough

Post by G.R. Bars » Sat, 17 Dec 1994 19:40:10


Quote:

>Subject: England - enough is enough
>Date: 13 Dec 1994 11:21:54 GMT
>Having watched more depressing news filter in over Ceefax this morning
>I've had just about enough of this *** and I'm fed up defending those
>spineless mercenaries out there who masquerade as the English cricket team.
>Clearly the state of English cricket is in a mess, I hope now that Australia
>dish out more hammerings over the coming two months it will be good for us
>in the long run, or will it...
>Last week the TCCB met to discuss the state of the English game. What might
>be the main talking point... how to set up a suitable structure to attract and
>nurture talent into the game maybe, or how to restructure the county championship
>to increase the intensity of county matches. Well apparently not. What they
>actually discussed was how they can prepare county wickets to encourage spin
>bowlers, and they are still not sure whether or not an English cricket academy
>(on the lines of the Australian one) would be a good idea, they are sending
>someone out on an all expenses trip to check it out (at least 5 years after
>we first heard about it). Ray Illingworths idea of two divisions was thrown out
>by the counties (surprise, surprise noone is going to want to be relegated).
>Someone needs to tell these old duffers who run our cricket to remove their
>heads from another part of their anatomy and wake up to reality. I would like
>to see a new structure setup much akin to the way Rugby Union has reorganised
>and a change to the domestic competitions.
>I would like to see the Sunday league dropped altogether as being useless for
>the development of the game in this country. I would like to see the county
>championship being organised into two groups of 8 teams with a round robin
>of 4 day games. the top two teams from each group would then go through to
>the semis, and finally a 5 day play off at Lords in the final.
>We also need to set up an Australian style cricket academy probably based at
>Lords with, off shoots in other parts of the country.
>What do all the other English/British netters think ?
>--Tim

We`ve got no such problems up in Yorkshire.We do attract talent like Darren
Gough and Craig White not to mention Richard Stemp.When England win back the
Ashes on 7th February 95 these Aussies will be wanting to come to Yorkshire
like Michael Bevan.We don`t need these useless foreigners!

G.R.Barsey

Leeds,Yorkshire!

 
 
 

England - enough is enough

Post by John Ha » Mon, 19 Dec 1994 00:06:41



Quote:
> We`ve got no such problems up in Yorkshire.We do attract talent like Darren
> Gough and Craig White not to mention Richard Stemp.When England win back the
> Ashes on 7th February 95 these Aussies will be wanting to come to Yorkshire
> like Michael Bevan.We don`t need these useless foreigners!

This would all become a little more convincing if Yorkshire were to win
anything, or even to come close. White and Gough are promising
cricketers, and Martin Moxon a good one, but after that I wouldn't have
said you exactly had an excess of talent.
--


  Cranleigh, Surrey, England          | why do we have Usenet?

 
 
 

England - enough is enough

Post by John Ha » Fri, 23 Dec 1994 05:10:13



           "Tim Addison - Sun UK - Senior Systems Engineer" writes:

Quote:

> > It does all seem very depressing.  Maybe some miracle will occur and
> > England will win a test somewhere along the line this winter, but it doesn't
> > look that likely right now.  What is really depressing is that, for the most
> > part, we can't even use the traditonal excuse of "if only so-and-so were
> > available" as we could during the Packer years and the illegal RSA tours.  If >

> This is an interesting point. I actually think that the Packer rebel series
> shielded a lot of the problems with the English system, because all of the
> major test sides were weakened to a much greater extent than the English
> team.

I agree with this.

Quote:

> We probably haven't had a really decent test side since the 60's, and today
> we are left in the position where we look to overseas born and trained players
> to bolster our weakened international side.

But to say we haven't had a really decent Test side since the '60s is
overstating the case. To take just one example, here is the England
side at Old Trafford in 1981 (playing against an Australian side
containing Kim Hughes, Border, Marsh, Lillee and Alderman):

Gooch
Boycott
Tavare
Gower
Brearley (capt)
Gatting
Botham
Knott (wk)
Emburey
Allott
Willis

There are only two players there who didn't have a long and successful
Test career.

The real decline only seems to have set in subsequent to about 1985,
IMHO.
--


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