Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by Mike Holman » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:42:40


Well, I've just finished reading Mihir Bose's History of Indian
Cricket, so now I know everything there is to know about Indian
cricket. Therefore I am able to select the authoritative best ever
Indian Test XI.

Which is:

SM Gavaskar
VM Merchant
D Vengsarkar
SR Tendulkar
VS Hazare
CK Nayudu
N Kapil Dev (c)
SMH Kirmani (k)
EAS Prasanna
Amar Singh
BS Chandrasekhar

The one who sort of doesn't belong there is Vengsarkar, but there are
hordes of fine Indian batsmen who batted at four, and *** all who
batted at three. I see no point in playing Vishy out of position, for
instance.

Anyone attempting to deploy statistically-based arguments to prove
that this is wrong will be laughed at, because this is the team *I*
have selected. It is not in the Indian tradition to place any reliance
on figures when picking teams, which must always be guided solely by
the prejudices and personal allegiances of the selectors (in this
case, me), although it is quite possible that these could be
influenced by offers of personal preferment at some later date. So, if
anyone wants to change this team, they're going to have to tell me
what's in it for me.

(A more important reason to ignore the stats is that the number and
spacing of Tests played by India prior to about 1971 make the samples
pretty dubious as a statistical basis, as well as some of the very
earliest players having had careers before they started Test cricket,
rather as WG Grace's Test stats give a misleading picture of how good
he was in 1876 before Tests started.)

Cheers,

Mike

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by John P Darc » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:05:33

Quote:

> SM Gavaskar
> VM Merchant
> D Vengsarkar
> SR Tendulkar
> VS Hazare
> CK Nayudu
> N Kapil Dev (c)
> SMH Kirmani (k)
> EAS Prasanna
> Amar Singh
> BS Chandrasekhar

(All explanations and caveats duly noted)

Without looking up stats or anything else, I am interested in your
omission of Bishen Bedi.  Furthermore, is Kapil the best captain
available in this XI? ...

--

Cheers

John

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by Mike Holman » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:38:18


Quote:

>> SM Gavaskar
>> VM Merchant
>> D Vengsarkar
>> SR Tendulkar
>> VS Hazare
>> CK Nayudu
>> N Kapil Dev (c)
>> SMH Kirmani (k)
>> EAS Prasanna
>> Amar Singh
>> BS Chandrasekhar

>(All explanations and caveats duly noted)

>Without looking up stats or anything else, I am interested in your
>omission of Bishen Bedi.

I thought quite a bit about Bedi or Prasanna. Since Pras was an offie
and Bedi an SLA, and Chandra is a given and a leggie, Pras gets the
nod on variety grounds. I suspect he was actually also the more
dangerous bowler.

Quote:
> Furthermore, is Kapil the best captain
>available in this XI? ...

I think he's the best captain of this XI. I'm not saying he is the
best captain of any XI, but of the various captains on offer, he was
the least prone to playing regional favourites and factional games,
had a decent record while in the job, and seemed to get his players to
play well for him. With the personalities and rivalries in this team,
I think he's the man for the job.

The bloke I really wanted as skipper was Tiger Pataudi, but he wasn't
really a good enough bat to get in the side at 4 or 5. Yet another one
who never went in at 3.

Cheers,

Mike

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by gmurth » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:44:37

Quote:

> Well, I've just finished reading Mihir Bose's History of Indian
> Cricket, so now I know everything there is to know about Indian
> cricket. Therefore I am able to select the authoritative best ever
> Indian Test XI.

> Which is:

> SM Gavaskar
> VM Merchant
> D Vengsarkar
> SR Tendulkar
> VS Hazare
> CK Nayudu
> N Kapil Dev (c)
> SMH Kirmani (k)
> EAS Prasanna
> Amar Singh
> BS Chandrasekhar

Good selection! I'd have Amarnath(M) instead of Vengsarkar. I would have
tried to squeeze Mankad in there notwithstanding the fact that Kapil is
already
chosen as an all-rounder.

-Ganesh

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by Jai Nataraja » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:49:55

You could perhaps find your way to putting Amarnath at 3 and making Gavaskar
the captain ?
Actually the drought at #3 is quite revealing.
Apart from that, not much to quibble. Good choice of Pras over Bedi, esp.
outside India.
Aren't you short one bowler ?

jai


Quote:


> >> SM Gavaskar
> >> VM Merchant
> >> D Vengsarkar
> >> SR Tendulkar
> >> VS Hazare
> >> CK Nayudu
> >> N Kapil Dev (c)
> >> SMH Kirmani (k)
> >> EAS Prasanna
> >> Amar Singh
> >> BS Chandrasekhar

> >(All explanations and caveats duly noted)

> >Without looking up stats or anything else, I am interested in your
> >omission of Bishen Bedi.

> I thought quite a bit about Bedi or Prasanna. Since Pras was an offie
> and Bedi an SLA, and Chandra is a given and a leggie, Pras gets the
> nod on variety grounds. I suspect he was actually also the more
> dangerous bowler.

> > Furthermore, is Kapil the best captain
> >available in this XI? ...

> I think he's the best captain of this XI. I'm not saying he is the
> best captain of any XI, but of the various captains on offer, he was
> the least prone to playing regional favourites and factional games,
> had a decent record while in the job, and seemed to get his players to
> play well for him. With the personalities and rivalries in this team,
> I think he's the man for the job.

> The bloke I really wanted as skipper was Tiger Pataudi, but he wasn't
> really a good enough bat to get in the side at 4 or 5. Yet another one
> who never went in at 3.

> Cheers,

> Mike

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by Mike Holman » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:10:57


Quote:


>> Well, I've just finished reading Mihir Bose's History of Indian
>> Cricket, so now I know everything there is to know about Indian
>> cricket. Therefore I am able to select the authoritative best ever
>> Indian Test XI.

>> Which is:

>> SM Gavaskar
>> VM Merchant
>> D Vengsarkar
>> SR Tendulkar
>> VS Hazare
>> CK Nayudu
>> N Kapil Dev (c)
>> SMH Kirmani (k)
>> EAS Prasanna
>> Amar Singh
>> BS Chandrasekhar

>Good selection! I'd have Amarnath(M) instead of Vengsarkar. I would have
>tried to squeeze Mankad in there notwithstanding the fact that Kapil is
>already
>chosen as an all-rounder.

There was that wonderful series in WI in which Amarnath shone, but
then there was also his binary series, which counts against him. I saw
Vengsarkar at Headingley, which was the best innings I've personally
witnessed by an Indian, so he gets the nod.

I originally voted for Mankad, but I over-ruled myself, because in
order to get him in, I would have had to play SRT, Hazare or Nayudu at
3, and none of them batted at that position. It's been one of India's
besetting sins to play people out of position (esp. middle-order
players with decent technique who get made to open), and it has nearly
always been a total disaster, so I decided to eschew that line.

And I wasn't going to drop Nayudu. I am persuaded that he was about
the nearest thing to a right-handed Lara that India have had. And
there can't be any question of not picking the other four in the top
order either, and you've got DBV at 3, so I just don't see where
Mankad gets in. (The thought of a sixth-wicket stand between Nayudu
and Kapil Dev with both of them going on the rampage is particularly
delicious, especially after what is liable to have been one of the
most boring opening stands of 243 you could wish to endure.)

The only method I can see of getting him in is to replace Kirmani with
Engineer and have him bat at 3. But I don't like that, so non-striking
batsmen will be quite safe against my team.

Cheers,

Mike

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by dougi » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:33:42



Quote:


>>> Well, I've just finished reading Mihir Bose's History of Indian
>>> Cricket, so now I know everything there is to know about Indian
>>> cricket. Therefore I am able to select the authoritative best ever
>>> Indian Test XI.

>>> Which is:

>>> SM Gavaskar
>>> VM Merchant
>>> D Vengsarkar
>>> SR Tendulkar
>>> VS Hazare
>>> CK Nayudu
>>> N Kapil Dev (c)
>>> SMH Kirmani (k)
>>> EAS Prasanna
>>> Amar Singh
>>> BS Chandrasekhar

What about Viswanath. I know nothing about Indian cricket, except they
struggle when they're not playing in India. But he was one bat that was
good to watch outside India, in Aus anyway.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> The only method I can see of getting him in is to replace Kirmani with
> Engineer and have him bat at 3. But I don't like that, so non-striking
> batsmen will be quite safe against my team.

> Cheers,

> Mike

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by samarth harish sha » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:40:14

Quote:


> > Well, I've just finished reading Mihir Bose's History of Indian
> > Cricket, so now I know everything there is to know about Indian
> > cricket. Therefore I am able to select the authoritative best ever
> > Indian Test XI.

> > Which is:

> > SM Gavaskar
> > VM Merchant
> > D Vengsarkar
> > SR Tendulkar
> > VS Hazare
> > CK Nayudu
> > N Kapil Dev (c)
> > SMH Kirmani (k)
> > EAS Prasanna
> > Amar Singh
> > BS Chandrasekhar

> Good selection! I'd have Amarnath(M) instead of Vengsarkar. I would have
> tried to squeeze Mankad in there notwithstanding the fact that Kapil is
> already
> chosen as an all-rounder.

I agree on both counts. I would choose Mankad over Amar Singh, too. (Not
batting at #10, of course!) BTW, Mike's team has a player from 5 different
religions - amazing, really! I don't know if it was intentional, though.

Merchant's the Parsi, Hazare the Christian, Kirmani the Muslim and Amar
Singh the Sikh. The rest are Hindus.

-Samarth.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> -Ganesh

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by samarth harish sha » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:42:04

Quote:

> Well, I've just finished reading Mihir Bose's History of Indian
> Cricket, so now I know everything there is to know about Indian
> cricket. Therefore I am able to select the authoritative best ever
> Indian Test XI.

> Which is:

> SM Gavaskar
> VM Merchant
> D Vengsarkar
> SR Tendulkar
> VS Hazare
> CK Nayudu
> N Kapil Dev (c)
> SMH Kirmani (k)
> EAS Prasanna
> Amar Singh
> BS Chandrasekhar

> The one who sort of doesn't belong there is Vengsarkar, but there are
> hordes of fine Indian batsmen who batted at four, and *** all who
> batted at three. I see no point in playing Vishy out of position, for
> instance.

> Anyone attempting to deploy statistically-based arguments to prove
> that this is wrong will be laughed at, because this is the team *I*
> have selected. It is not in the Indian tradition to place any reliance
> on figures when picking teams, which must always be guided solely by
> the prejudices and personal allegiances of the selectors (in this
> case, me), although it is quite possible that these could be
> influenced by offers of personal preferment at some later date. So, if
> anyone wants to change this team, they're going to have to tell me
> what's in it for me.

> (A more important reason to ignore the stats is that the number and
> spacing of Tests played by India prior to about 1971 make the samples
> pretty dubious as a statistical basis, as well as some of the very
> earliest players having had careers before they started Test cricket,
> rather as WG Grace's Test stats give a misleading picture of how good
> he was in 1876 before Tests started.)

This is also a most PC team because it includes players of 5 different
religions - Hinduism, Zorastrianism (sp?), Christianity, Islam and
Sikhism! :-)

-Samarth.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> Cheers,

> Mike

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by C.G.J » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:52:09

I would thought that Srinath would deserve consideration.
He has taken 200+ wickets at an average of 29 which is great considering he
plays half his cricket on flat, dusty, unhelpful wickets. He also carries
the attack when they are away from home.


Quote:
> Well, I've just finished reading Mihir Bose's History of Indian
> Cricket, so now I know everything there is to know about Indian
> cricket. Therefore I am able to select the authoritative best ever
> Indian Test XI.

> Which is:

> SM Gavaskar
> VM Merchant
> D Vengsarkar
> SR Tendulkar
> VS Hazare
> CK Nayudu
> N Kapil Dev (c)
> SMH Kirmani (k)
> EAS Prasanna
> Amar Singh
> BS Chandrasekhar

> The one who sort of doesn't belong there is Vengsarkar, but there are
> hordes of fine Indian batsmen who batted at four, and *** all who
> batted at three. I see no point in playing Vishy out of position, for
> instance.

> Anyone attempting to deploy statistically-based arguments to prove
> that this is wrong will be laughed at, because this is the team *I*
> have selected. It is not in the Indian tradition to place any reliance
> on figures when picking teams, which must always be guided solely by
> the prejudices and personal allegiances of the selectors (in this
> case, me), although it is quite possible that these could be
> influenced by offers of personal preferment at some later date. So, if
> anyone wants to change this team, they're going to have to tell me
> what's in it for me.

> (A more important reason to ignore the stats is that the number and
> spacing of Tests played by India prior to about 1971 make the samples
> pretty dubious as a statistical basis, as well as some of the very
> earliest players having had careers before they started Test cricket,
> rather as WG Grace's Test stats give a misleading picture of how good
> he was in 1876 before Tests started.)

> Cheers,

> Mike

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by Mike Holman » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:55:06


Quote:





>> >> SM Gavaskar
>> >> VM Merchant
>> >> D Vengsarkar
>> >> SR Tendulkar
>> >> VS Hazare
>> >> CK Nayudu
>> >> N Kapil Dev (c)
>> >> SMH Kirmani (k)
>> >> EAS Prasanna
>> >> Amar Singh
>> >> BS Chandrasekhar
>You could perhaps find your way to putting Amarnath at 3 and making Gavaskar
>the captain ?

No, I couldn't. I've explained my preference for DBV over Jimmy
Amarnath already. And Gavaskar came from the Bombay school of
captaincy: haughty with the players and a preference for first
ensuring the avoidance of defeat before thinking about whether a win
could be manufactured, which is also why Merchant isn't captain (and
I'd choose him over SMG as skipper if it were between the two of
them).

Quote:
>Actually the drought at #3 is quite revealing.

It is, isn't it? I'm surprised how few decent 3s there have been in
Indian history.

Quote:
>Apart from that, not much to quibble. Good choice of Pras over Bedi, esp.
>outside India.
>Aren't you short one bowler ?

Possibly. But the four main bowlers are very good (this is the early
Kapil's bowling we're talking about, obviously), and SRT, SMG, and CKN
all turn their arms over fairly respectably, so I'm not worried about
the apparent shortage.

Cheers,

Mike

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by gmurth » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:04:25

Quote:

> >Good selection! I'd have Amarnath(M) instead of Vengsarkar. I would have
> >tried to squeeze Mankad in there notwithstanding the fact that Kapil is
> >already
> >chosen as an all-rounder.

> There was that wonderful series in WI in which Amarnath shone, but
> then there was also his binary series, which counts against him. I saw
> Vengsarkar at Headingley, which was the best innings I've personally
> witnessed by an Indian, so he gets the nod.

Yes, that was a good hundred. Vengsarkar also did quite well against
Lhoyd's WI in the home series in 83-84 and was the only Indian bat
other than SMG to average 50+ in that series. Regarding Mohinder,
yes, he did have the binary series, but the 82-83 twin tour of Pak and
WI really proved that he was top class against pace, and well, everyone
has one of those failures like Jimmy so I'd be a little forgiving and
put him in. But since the thread  is titled "Mike's All Time India
Test XI", I would have to rename myself to put Jimmy in :-).
Technically though I think Mohinder was quite easily a better player
than Vengsarkar against both pace and spin.

Quote:
> I originally voted for Mankad, but I over-ruled myself, because in
> order to get him in, I would have had to play SRT, Hazare or Nayudu at
> 3, and none of them batted at that position. It's been one of India's
> besetting sins to play people out of position (esp. middle-order
> players with decent technique who get made to open), and it has nearly
> always been a total disaster, so I decided to eschew that line.

You're right. Its not easy to get Mankad in unless you get him in
as an opener in place of Merchant, also not easy. However, 4
bowlers is a little short on bowling IMO (unless those 4 are the
ferocious WI pace battery of the 80's) so I'd be tempted to drop
Hazare and have an all-rounder like Mankad coming in at #7.
Since bowling has been the major bane of Indian cricket, one
might even consider going in for a 5th bowler, perhaps someone
like Mohd Nissar (or possibly even Subhash Gupte) and
eliminating a batting slot (unfortunately the axe falling once again
on Hazare).

Quote:
> And I wasn't going to drop Nayudu. I am persuaded that he was about
> the nearest thing to a right-handed Lara that India have had. And

Oh no, I would never suggest dropping Nayadu! To me he is an
automatic pick.

Cheers,
Ganesh

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by gmurth » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:11:48

Quote:



> > > Well, I've just finished reading Mihir Bose's History of Indian
> > > Cricket, so now I know everything there is to know about Indian
> > > cricket. Therefore I am able to select the authoritative best ever
> > > Indian Test XI.

> > > Which is:

> > > SM Gavaskar
> > > VM Merchant
> > > D Vengsarkar
> > > SR Tendulkar
> > > VS Hazare
> > > CK Nayudu
> > > N Kapil Dev (c)
> > > SMH Kirmani (k)
> > > EAS Prasanna
> > > Amar Singh
> > > BS Chandrasekhar

> > Good selection! I'd have Amarnath(M) instead of Vengsarkar. I would have
> > tried to squeeze Mankad in there notwithstanding the fact that Kapil is
> > already
> > chosen as an all-rounder.

> I agree on both counts. I would choose Mankad over Amar Singh, too. (Not
> batting at #10, of course!) BTW, Mike's team has a player from 5 different
> religions - amazing, really! I don't know if it was intentional, though.

Hey, that was an interesting piece of info, the 5 religions thing! Also, I
didn't
know that Merchant was parsi.

-Ganesh

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by samarth harish sha » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:17:14

Quote:



> >> Well, I've just finished reading Mihir Bose's History of Indian
> >> Cricket, so now I know everything there is to know about Indian
> >> cricket. Therefore I am able to select the authoritative best ever
> >> Indian Test XI.

> >> Which is:

> >> SM Gavaskar
> >> VM Merchant
> >> D Vengsarkar
> >> SR Tendulkar
> >> VS Hazare
> >> CK Nayudu
> >> N Kapil Dev (c)
> >> SMH Kirmani (k)
> >> EAS Prasanna
> >> Amar Singh
> >> BS Chandrasekhar

> >Good selection! I'd have Amarnath(M) instead of Vengsarkar. I would have
> >tried to squeeze Mankad in there notwithstanding the fact that Kapil is
> >already
> >chosen as an all-rounder.

> There was that wonderful series in WI in which Amarnath shone, but
> then there was also his binary series, which counts against him. I saw

Amarnath had many other good to great series. He had a 50-something away
average in the 80s. He had good series in Pakistan, England, SL and
Australia. Also did reasonably well at home. In the 70s, too, he had a
couple of good series. The binary series was his only *really* poor series
and to be fair (although it's a very poor excuse), he was ill in one of
those tests.

Quote:
> Vengsarkar at Headingley, which was the best innings I've personally
> witnessed by an Indian, so he gets the nod.

I know this is your list so you can do what you deem fit with it, but this
seems to be a clear case of one good innings winning over a career of
consistent performances (with only one really poor show).

-Samarth.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> I originally voted for Mankad, but I over-ruled myself, because in
> order to get him in, I would have had to play SRT, Hazare or Nayudu at
> 3, and none of them batted at that position. It's been one of India's
> besetting sins to play people out of position (esp. middle-order
> players with decent technique who get made to open), and it has nearly
> always been a total disaster, so I decided to eschew that line.

> And I wasn't going to drop Nayudu. I am persuaded that he was about
> the nearest thing to a right-handed Lara that India have had. And
> there can't be any question of not picking the other four in the top
> order either, and you've got DBV at 3, so I just don't see where
> Mankad gets in. (The thought of a sixth-wicket stand between Nayudu
> and Kapil Dev with both of them going on the rampage is particularly
> delicious, especially after what is liable to have been one of the
> most boring opening stands of 243 you could wish to endure.)

> The only method I can see of getting him in is to replace Kirmani with
> Engineer and have him bat at 3. But I don't like that, so non-striking
> batsmen will be quite safe against my team.

> Cheers,

> Mike

 
 
 

Mike's All-Time India Test XI

Post by samarth harish sha » Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:23:00

Quote:




> > > > Well, I've just finished reading Mihir Bose's History of Indian
> > > > Cricket, so now I know everything there is to know about Indian
> > > > cricket. Therefore I am able to select the authoritative best ever
> > > > Indian Test XI.

> > > > Which is:

> > > > SM Gavaskar
> > > > VM Merchant
> > > > D Vengsarkar
> > > > SR Tendulkar
> > > > VS Hazare
> > > > CK Nayudu
> > > > N Kapil Dev (c)
> > > > SMH Kirmani (k)
> > > > EAS Prasanna
> > > > Amar Singh
> > > > BS Chandrasekhar

> > > Good selection! I'd have Amarnath(M) instead of Vengsarkar. I would have
> > > tried to squeeze Mankad in there notwithstanding the fact that Kapil is
> > > already
> > > chosen as an all-rounder.

> > I agree on both counts. I would choose Mankad over Amar Singh, too. (Not
> > batting at #10, of course!) BTW, Mike's team has a player from 5 different
> > religions - amazing, really! I don't know if it was intentional, though.

> Hey, that was an interesting piece of info, the 5 religions thing! Also, I
> didn't
> know that Merchant was parsi.

Actually, now that you mention it, I don't think he was. In my eagerness
though, I classified him as one. His real name was Vijay Thackersey, I
think. A Hindu Gujju like myself. :-)

-Samarth.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> -Ganesh