England better then NZ "Man for man"

England better then NZ "Man for man"

Post by Justin Mansfiel » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:52:02


Or so says Andy Caddick, I wonder Andrew, was this observation made after
you were dropped?

From the NZPA via Stuff:

Discarded England pace bowler Andrew Caddick has added spice to the third
one-day cricket international here tomorrow by rating his team a better man
for man unit than New Zealand.

England go into the day-night match at McLean Park battling to keep pace
with New Zealand in all three disciplines of the game after the 155-run loss
in Wellington last Saturday which saw them go 0-2 down in the five-match
series.

A confident New Zealand side are looking to finish off the series on a pacy
pitch here then look to a repeat of their 5-0 whitewash of the West Indies
at home two years ago.

Caddick, who was dropped for the second match after a pedestrian start to
the tour, is unlikely to play again tomorrow as the English selectors favour
Yorkshire's Matthew Hoggard.

While New Zealand had their moments in Christchurch and were helped by a
limp England batting collapse, the flat tourists had no answer to the home
side in Wellington.

It was difficult to see them recovering but the noises from the England camp
suggest they will respond to a familiar position.

"We are a funny side who seem to have made a career out of starting slowly
and coming back . . . it means that we can come back at New Zealand,"
Caddick wrote in his newspaper column.

"On paper, player for player, we are a better side. We have better
individual players. We have allowed them to beat us."

It was an interesting assessment but one which will be tested tomorrow as
England have their last chance to get back on track.

Marcus Trescothick should take the wicketkeeping gloves again and is under
pressure to perform with the bat after dual failures. He topped the averages
in India when England recovered to square the recent series 3-3.

Allrounders Paul Collingwood and Craig White also need to match the deeds of
their New Zealand counterparts Andre Adams and Chris Cairns, with Adams the
star of the series so far.

Trescothick yesterday said there was no panic in the England side, only
mystery as to why they had started the series so slowly.

One suggestion was they were enjoying the comforts of New Zealand too much
after three consecutive subcontinent tours. It was something Trescothick
didn't rule out.

"It's something we're trying to work out ourselves. It was a hectic tour of
India, everything was a lot different to what we've seen here," he said.

New Zealand had a two-hour training session in the Napier sun yesterday
while England went for the same time but concentrated mainly on fielding.

Dropped catches, missed run outs and slow chasing have made them look far
inferior to their opponents.

One of the Black Caps' best, Lou Vincent, was surprised at England's efforts
on Saturday but said his team were wary of writing them off.

"They're definitely a way better team than that, and I wouldn't be
surprised, being a desperate game for them, that they'll come out and apply
themselves a lot more," Vincent said.

"We're stoked with the way we're playing, and once you're on a winning roll
you don't want to stop it. It feels good, and we're definitely keen to knock
it over on Wednesday."

While the pressure has gone on England captain Nasser Hussain and coach
Duncan Fletcher to lift their side, New Zealand coach Denis Aberhart had
little motivational work to do.

He labelled Saturday's victory as one of the team's most satisfying in his
time in charge. With such an experienced core of players he was needing to
have little motivational input.

"In Wellington the guys came out and put the gameplan into place for pretty
much the entire game.

"The players know pretty well what's expected of them. They're experienced,
they know what their role is and they know when a wicket falls they need to
establish another partnership."

Aberhart wouldn't confirm whether speedster Ian Butler, 20, would play here,
but it seems likely he will replace batsman Brendon McCullum at a ground
renowned for its pacy pitch.

Teams:

New Zealand (from): Stephen Fleming (captain), Nathan Astle, Chris Nevin,
Brendon McCullum, Craig McMillan, Chris Cairns, Lou Vincent, Chris Harris,
Andre Adams, Daniel Vettori, Daryl Tuffey, Ian Butler.

England (from): Nasser Hussain (captain), Marcus Trescothick, Nick Knight,
Graham Thorpe, Michael Vaughan, Owais Shah, Paul Collingwood, Andrew
Flintoff, Craig White, Ben Hollioake, Ashley Giles, Matthew Hoggard, Darren
Gough, James Foster, Andrew Caddick, Jeremy Snape.

 
 
 

England better then NZ "Man for man"

Post by TomV » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:55:32

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:52:02 +0800, "Justin Mansfield"

Quote:

>"On paper, player for player, we are a better side. We have better
>individual players. We have allowed them to beat us."

England have a strange sports mentality. I can't pinpoint the flaw,
but there is something in the psyche that causes a disparity between
their self image and reality.

Their rugby team has been classic at it for decades. It will be
interesting to see how they deal with actually being half way decent
for a bit.

...tom

 
 
 

England better then NZ "Man for man"

Post by Bobs » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:09:08

Quote:

> On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:52:02 +0800, "Justin Mansfield"

> >"On paper, player for player, we are a better side. We have better
> >individual players. We have allowed them to beat us."

> England have a strange sports mentality. I can't pinpoint the flaw,
> but there is something in the psyche that causes a disparity between
> their self image and reality.

> Their rugby team has been classic at it for decades. It will be
> interesting to see how they deal with actually being half way decent
> for a bit.

Well, to be fair their top order is probably a bit better than ours
(except for maybe Astle). Thorpe and Knight are class players. However,
from there onwards there really isn't any comparison. Gough excepted.

Quote:

> ...tom

--
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The
inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. - Churchill

 
 
 

England better then NZ "Man for man"

Post by TomV » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:03:44

Quote:

>Thorpe and Knight are class players. However,
>from there onwards there really isn't any comparison. Gough excepted.

Picked both of them in my fantasy side. Wicket keeper is giving me
probs, Trescothwick isn't available as an option and if I pick Nevin
I'd have to drop another Kiwi.

...tom

 
 
 

England better then NZ "Man for man"

Post by Andrew Dunfor » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:26:48


Quote:
> Or so says Andy Caddick, I wonder Andrew, was this observation made after
> you were dropped?

> From the NZPA via Stuff:

> Discarded England pace bowler Andrew Caddick has added spice to the third
> one-day cricket international here tomorrow by rating his team a better
man
> for man unit than New Zealand.

<snip the article>

I believe Caddick's column is published in the Independent on Sunday.

Whatever the relative merits of the individual players of both sides, the
match-up is much closer than we have seen in the two matches played.

It was a meaningless throw-away comment probably written by a ghost anyway.
Bound to attract a bit of derision at a time when most of the team are
under-performing, but not worth getting e***d about when compared with
Caddick's comments re. not wanting to tour India before Christmas.  He's not
exactly in danger of getting a job at the United Nations once his days in
cricket are finished.

Now something which *was* really funny: the reporting of Caddick's comments
prompted Lynn McConnell of CricInfo to publish a long and detailed analysis
in which he paired off the players of each side and compared them
head-to-head.  I got as far as the first match-up, in which we were told
that Chris Nevin is as good a player as Marcus Trescothick, before giving
up.  Chips on that shoulder? I'd like tomato sauce with mine, thanks.

Andrew

 
 
 

England better then NZ "Man for man"

Post by Shishir Path » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:48:20

Quote:

> Or so says Andy Caddick, I wonder Andrew, was this observation made after
> you were dropped?

> From the NZPA via Stuff:

> Discarded England pace bowler Andrew Caddick has added spice to the third
> one-day cricket international here tomorrow by rating his team a better man
> for man unit than New Zealand.

Hmmm.  So when was the last time Fleming asked Vettori to pitch 24
inches outside the leg?

Cheers,

Shishir

 
 
 

England better then NZ "Man for man"

Post by Simon Pleasant » Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:06:49

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:26:48 +1300, "Andrew Dunford"

Quote:

>Now something which *was* really funny: the reporting of Caddick's comments
>prompted Lynn McConnell of CricInfo to publish a long and detailed analysis
>in which he paired off the players of each side and compared them
>head-to-head.  I got as far as the first match-up, in which we were told
>that Chris Nevin is as good a player as Marcus Trescothick, before giving
>up.  Chips on that shoulder? I'd like tomato sauce with mine, thanks.

You wouldn't happen to have a url for that article would you?  I can't
search Cricinfo at the moment because it is not working (in fact it
very rarely does, it would seem).

As for the relative truth or otherwise behind Caddick's comments,
England do seem always to have had a history of looking good on paper
individually but not delivering as a team.  I would have said of late
this is the first time the reverse has been true - to me the England
side that toured India felt as weak as any I had ever seen but
delivered rather better results than I had hoped for.

But, by the same token, it has to be said that New Zealand, on paper
do not look very convincing but I think their performance shows
clearly they can and do compete with the best.

Simon

 
 
 

England better then NZ "Man for man"

Post by Mike Holman » Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:33:03

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:06:49 +0000, Simon Pleasants

Quote:
>On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:26:48 +1300, "Andrew Dunford"

>>Now something which *was* really funny: the reporting of Caddick's comments
>>prompted Lynn McConnell of CricInfo to publish a long and detailed analysis
>>in which he paired off the players of each side and compared them
>>head-to-head.  I got as far as the first match-up, in which we were told
>>that Chris Nevin is as good a player as Marcus Trescothick, before giving
>>up.  Chips on that shoulder? I'd like tomato sauce with mine, thanks.

>You wouldn't happen to have a url for that article would you?  I can't
>search Cricinfo at the moment because it is not working (in fact it
>very rarely does, it would seem).

I tried looking for it earlier, but it seems to have disappeared. I'm
mildly interested that Andrew, as a sceptical NZ supporter, thought it
was fairly ridiculous while I, as a sceptical England supporter
thought it was only slightly one-eyed. Such are our respective lacks
of faith in our odo sides.

Quote:

>As for the relative truth or otherwise behind Caddick's comments,
>England do seem always to have had a history of looking good on paper
>individually but not delivering as a team.  I would have said of late
>this is the first time the reverse has been true - to me the England
>side that toured India felt as weak as any I had ever seen but
>delivered rather better results than I had hoped for.

>But, by the same token, it has to be said that New Zealand, on paper
>do not look very convincing but I think their performance shows
>clearly they can and do compete with the best.

That's a fair endor***t of the captaincy and coaching of both sides.

But what got me interested was this feeling that the team was "weak".

Did you really feel the side was weak, or were you just not confident
that they would do well because there weren't many players with a good
Test track record?

To me, the only definite weak link in the party was Ormond, of whom I
entertain no expectations for a future career because I think he's a
good county bowler and will never be anything more than that. But I
was confident in the ability of the other players: the question in my
mind was how well they would cope. I didn't have any doubts about
Hoggard, though, and said so - it was about the only firm prediction I
made before the series that Hoggard would do well, and got a load of
flak from Sadiq for my pains.

I was not confident that the side would do well, which is one
definition of "weak", but I always felt that we'd run India close
because I thought we had a party of basically good players, and if
they could all get it together, good enough to cause an upset. I
didn't think it was weak in the same way as when we fielded an attack
of Cork, Ilott, Martin and Illingworth with Gallian in the middle
order, when we were picking several players who were simply not of the
required class and never would be.

Cheers,

Mike

 
 
 

England better then NZ "Man for man"

Post by Simon Pleasant » Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:35:36

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:33:03 +0000, Mike Holmans

Quote:

>But what got me interested was this feeling that the team was "weak".

>Did you really feel the side was weak, or were you just not confident
>that they would do well because there weren't many players with a good
>Test track record?

I didn't really see the definition in the way you have defined it, to
be honest.  I can now, but at the time of writing what I was thinking
of was confidence.  We were fielding a team that consisted of a number
of very inexperienced players, thrown in together with "senior"
players for experience, but even they were ones with a very dubious
record at test level.

In recent times I have come to look at Atherton, Stewart and Thorpe as
the proven batsmen and Gough and Caddick as the bowling.  Now for the
Indian series were doing without all of them (albeit Thorpe was on
tour but often unavailable).  When a team is considered to be a weak
international side, as England (rightly or wrongly) is, removing all
of whom I considered to be the best players was certainly not going to
help our cause, although at least we did have the benefit of Nasser as
captain, unlike the Ashes series.

Simon

 
 
 

England better then NZ "Man for man"

Post by Andrew Dunfor » Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:14:00


Quote:
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:26:48 +1300, "Andrew Dunford"

> >Now something which *was* really funny: the reporting of Caddick's
comments
> >prompted Lynn McConnell of CricInfo to publish a long and detailed
analysis
> >in which he paired off the players of each side and compared them
> >head-to-head.  I got as far as the first match-up, in which we were told
> >that Chris Nevin is as good a player as Marcus Trescothick, before giving
> >up.  Chips on that shoulder? I'd like tomato sauce with mine, thanks.

> You wouldn't happen to have a url for that article would you?  I can't
> search Cricinfo at the moment because it is not working (in fact it
> very rarely does, it would seem).

(with apologies in advance for the url wrapping onto multiple lines):

www.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2002/FEB/099448...
EB2002.html

Quote:
> As for the relative truth or otherwise behind Caddick's comments,
> England do seem always to have had a history of looking good on paper
> individually but not delivering as a team.  I would have said of late
> this is the first time the reverse has been true - to me the England
> side that toured India felt as weak as any I had ever seen but
> delivered rather better results than I had hoped for.

> But, by the same token, it has to be said that New Zealand, on paper
> do not look very convincing but I think their performance shows
> clearly they can and do compete with the best.

I think that sums things up reasonably well.  On paper it's not exactly a
clash of the titans but has made for an interesting series.

Andrew

 
 
 

England better then NZ "Man for man"

Post by Andrew Dunfor » Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:21:22


Quote:
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:06:49 +0000, Simon Pleasants

> >On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:26:48 +1300, "Andrew Dunford"

> >>Now something which *was* really funny: the reporting of Caddick's
comments
> >>prompted Lynn McConnell of CricInfo to publish a long and detailed
analysis
> >>in which he paired off the players of each side and compared them
> >>head-to-head.  I got as far as the first match-up, in which we were told
> >>that Chris Nevin is as good a player as Marcus Trescothick, before
giving
> >>up.  Chips on that shoulder? I'd like tomato sauce with mine, thanks.

> >You wouldn't happen to have a url for that article would you?  I can't
> >search Cricinfo at the moment because it is not working (in fact it
> >very rarely does, it would seem).

> I tried looking for it earlier, but it seems to have disappeared. I'm
> mildly interested that Andrew, as a sceptical NZ supporter, thought it
> was fairly ridiculous while I, as a sceptical England supporter
> thought it was only slightly one-eyed. Such are our respective lacks
> of faith in our odo sides.

I have been back and read the whole article now, and to be fair to Lynn
McConnell, it didn't really get any sillier than the Trescothick v Nevin
comparison.  Also Tresco seems to be trying very hard to not out-perform
Nevin in the current series.

McConnell's judgement appears to be based on balancing out Trescothick's
superior batting with the gem that Nevin is a "full-time wicket-keeper".
Whilst I don't rate Trescothick's keeping very highly, I'd hate to see what
Nevin's glovework was like if he only did it part-time.

<snip>

Andrew