Why India should play at Karachi

Why India should play at Karachi

Post by vdeolali.. » Sun, 01 Jan 2006 02:33:15


While it is obviously at some level a purely security matter, I think
Indians have the most goodwill among the residents of Karachi, since it
is home to the mohajir (immigrants from India) community who are
culturally the same as other Indians.

I grew up around a lot of Pakistanis (in the middle east), and the only
ones who were absolutely hostile to Indians were Punjabis. Urdu
speakers actually found Indian company more agreeable than that of
Punjabi Pakistanis.  There were a few Pakistanis who used to hang out
only with Indians, and these were invariably urdu speakers from Karachi
area.

I think we should definitely play in Karachi where there is much
goodwill for India and its people.

Vinay

 
 
 

Why India should play at Karachi

Post by shariq_ta.. » Sun, 01 Jan 2006 03:06:35

Vinay, you used quite a few generalizations that need to be cleared.

Did you know that 70% of the immigrants from India were Punjabis. Most
of my Punjabi friends have their ancestry from the Indian side of
Punjab. It just so happend that they integrated with the local Punjabis
based on culture and language. Put many of them in a room with an
Indian Punjabi and they will connect immediately and meet like long
lost brothers

A number of Karachiites have ancestry that were driven away from their
homes in India and had their belongings confiscated. So there is some
degree of hostility towards India

So it's not correct to say that Punjabis have hostility towards India
and Mohajirs don't

As a Karachiite myself nothing will give me more pleasure than my city
hosting test matches and ODIs because the city really does love its
cricket. I don't expect much of a turnout for the test matches although
with India things may be different, but the ODI tickets will be sold
out within 24 hours of going on sale

Shariq

 
 
 

Why India should play at Karachi

Post by vdeolali.. » Sun, 01 Jan 2006 03:14:34

Shariq,

What you say might be true, but the Punjabis who migrated found a home
in the Punjab in Pakistan, while mohajirs had a tougher time - am I not
correct in that statement? It is kind of like they say about giving
away a daughter in marriage - agar sasural mein pyaar milta hai, to
ladki maikey ko bhool jaati hai.

Also, I wrote my experience. My experience remains (even after coming
to the US) that the Pakistanis that I have found most friendly towards
Indians to be the urdu speaking ones.

Perhaps my statement is a generalization, and surely there will be
exceptions to it (those that you point out), but I think that on the
average what I said is true - that you are more likely to find a crowd
in karachi that is friendly to India than a crowd in another city.
Actually, to be honest with you, I have never encountered a Karachiite
(you included) who was not friendly towards India and had goodwill
towards its people. Most Karachiites I have met tend to regard India as
their "mother country" at *some* level, and I think that is a source of
this goodwill. Hence I would like India to play in front of such crowds
- it will foster more goodwill I think.

Vinay

 
 
 

Why India should play at Karachi

Post by ampar.. » Sun, 01 Jan 2006 04:21:45

Quote:

> While it is obviously at some level a purely security matter, I think
> Indians have the most goodwill among the residents of Karachi, since it
> is home to the mohajir (immigrants from India) community who are
> culturally the same as other Indians.

> I grew up around a lot of Pakistanis (in the middle east), and the only
> ones who were absolutely hostile to Indians were Punjabis. Urdu
> speakers actually found Indian company more agreeable than that of
> Punjabi Pakistanis.  There were a few Pakistanis who used to hang out
> only with Indians, and these were invariably urdu speakers from Karachi
> area.

> I think we should definitely play in Karachi where there is much
> goodwill for India and its people.

> Vinay

goodwill towards Indians and Indian cricket team in Karachi ? are you
kidding me ?
 
 
 

Why India should play at Karachi

Post by Southpa » Sun, 01 Jan 2006 04:35:45

Quote:


> > While it is obviously at some level a purely security matter, I think
> > Indians have the most goodwill among the residents of Karachi, since it
> > is home to the mohajir (immigrants from India) community who are
> > culturally the same as other Indians.

> > I grew up around a lot of Pakistanis (in the middle east), and the only
> > ones who were absolutely hostile to Indians were Punjabis. Urdu
> > speakers actually found Indian company more agreeable than that of
> > Punjabi Pakistanis.  There were a few Pakistanis who used to hang out
> > only with Indians, and these were invariably urdu speakers from Karachi
> > area.

> > I think we should definitely play in Karachi where there is much
> > goodwill for India and its people.

> > Vinay

> goodwill towards Indians and Indian cricket team in Karachi ? are you
> kidding me ?

On the 1989-90 tour, two separate games were hindered by crowd trouble
at Karachi. During the test, a madman ran onto the field and started
chasing the Indian captain while India were fielding. Then the ODO was
abandoned due to crowd trouble with Pakistan 28/3 in the 15th over.

-Samarth.

 
 
 

Why India should play at Karachi

Post by vdeolali.. » Sun, 01 Jan 2006 06:35:26

Samarth,

You are absolutely right about these two incidents, and I am at a loss
to explain that in light of political issues. I have had acquaintance
with many many Pakistanis and this rule (that Karachi urdu speakers are
friendlier towards India than their Punjabi counterparts) seems to hold
true with overwhelming regularity. Infact I have had Karachi urdu
speakers say to me that they consider themselves Indian more than
Pakistani on more than one occassion (although I must also add that
both these guys had lived outside their country for long periods of
time). I really dont know how to explain these two incidents you have
pointed to (both of which I witnessed live on TV.). It is my belief
based on long experience that Karachi urdu speakers do have a higher
affinity towards India, but this is obviously not reflected in the
events you point out. I dont know how to explain this discrepancy.
Perhaps my understanding is incorrect, but I would doubt it given that
these experiences involve a lot of people over a long period of time.

Btw, AMAZING deliveries by Prabhakar in the ODI, no? Kya inswing tha. I
was jumping up and down when the crowd stopped the game. Watching on
black and white TV in Delhi.

Vinay

 
 
 

Why India should play at Karachi

Post by vignes1.. » Sun, 01 Jan 2006 09:47:46

I always thought the converts and the affected ones show stronger
feelings and all kinds of -isms compared to the natives.

I 'expected' Bngladeshis not to support the Pakistani team.  In the
India - Pakistan matches, number of my Bangladeshi acquantances (in US)
cheered the Pakistani team.

Vicky:
[Advani was from West Pakistan, right?]

 
 
 

Why India should play at Karachi

Post by vdeolali.. » Sun, 01 Jan 2006 09:59:10

Quote:

> I always thought the converts and the affected ones show stronger
> feelings and all kinds of -isms compared to the natives.

> I 'expected' Bngladeshis not to support the Pakistani team.  In the
> India - Pakistan matches, number of my Bangladeshi acquantances (in US)
> cheered the Pakistani team.

> Vicky:
> [Advani was from West Pakistan, right?]

Well Vicky, it is not like only the muhajirs are converts - the
Punjabis are also converts as are the Afghans (Afghanistan was a 100%
Buddhist country till about the 7th century - actually I was in a
museum of Asian antiquities in Tokyo recently, and almost all the
buddhist exhibits were from what is today Afghanistan and NWFP in
Pakistan - many from the Kushan period. The Kushan empire in the 4th
century roughly corresponded to these two areas.).

To answer your question - Yes Advani was from West Pakistan - I believe
he was from Karachi actually and attended St Patrick's there for some
time. I think they showed him a roster with his name on it during his
recent visit there.

But I have always felt that muhajirs have great cultural affinity with
us. In my personal interactions, I have found them very similar to us,
and quite friendly towards us.

Do you live in the bay area? Are you a member of ICC? If you go there,
talk to Wasim bhai (the caretaker). He will tell you a lot about
muhajirs (he has many relatives in Pakistan). He feels that Muhajirs
belong in India culturally - he is quite passionate about it too. From
all the muhajirs I have interacted with, I kinda agree with him. They
are really very similar to us in every way.  If I could, I would try to
devise some sort of dual citizenship for them so they could return to
their country if they wished to.

By muhajir, I mean specifically those people whom the british called
"hindusthani muslims" and who migrated to Pakistan in 1947.

Frankly, I too have a lot of affinity towards them :-)

Vinay

 
 
 

Why India should play at Karachi

Post by Madhusudan Sing » Sun, 01 Jan 2006 11:53:11

Quote:

> While it is obviously at some level a purely security matter, I think
> Indians have the most goodwill among the residents of Karachi, since it
> is home to the mohajir (immigrants from India) community who are
> culturally the same as other Indians.

> I grew up around a lot of Pakistanis (in the middle east), and the only
> ones who were absolutely hostile to Indians were Punjabis. Urdu
> speakers actually found Indian company more agreeable than that of
> Punjabi Pakistanis.  There were a few Pakistanis who used to hang out
> only with Indians, and these were invariably urdu speakers from Karachi
> area.

> I think we should definitely play in Karachi where there is much
> goodwill for India and its people.

> Vinay

I have not interacted with as many Pakistanis as you have, but I have found
Punjabi Pakistanis to be quite nice to get along with. Of course, this
could have a lot to do with a shared language and culture (much as modern
Pakistani "history" may try to place its roots in the Perso-Arabic sphere)
as well as the unrepresentative sample I encountered. The bonhomie lasts as
long as you do not bring up history, and there too some seem to indicate
that they regret the Partition.

As to Mohajirs, I have met but a few, and they were as nice (or converse) as
their Punjabi countrymen.

And as to playing at Karachi, it is a rank bad idea, goodwill or no
goodwill. When touring Pakistan, the security of the team must come before
anything else. There is a great deal of hatred for India (not individual
Indians necessarily) in many sections of the Pakistani society, and even if
you can prove that a bare majority of Pakistanis are not ill-disposed
towards Indians, you have to remember that Karachi was the place where
Daniel Pearl was taken before being beheaded in a most ***ic and brutal
fashion. Sorry, I would put the personal safety of Indian players (yes,
even Ganguly :) ) above any softminded considerations when it comes to
Pakistan in general, and Karachi in particular.

 
 
 

Why India should play at Karachi

Post by vdeolali.. » Sun, 01 Jan 2006 14:07:09

Quote:


> > While it is obviously at some level a purely security matter, I think
> > Indians have the most goodwill among the residents of Karachi, since it
> > is home to the mohajir (immigrants from India) community who are
> > culturally the same as other Indians.

> > I grew up around a lot of Pakistanis (in the middle east), and the only
> > ones who were absolutely hostile to Indians were Punjabis. Urdu
> > speakers actually found Indian company more agreeable than that of
> > Punjabi Pakistanis.  There were a few Pakistanis who used to hang out
> > only with Indians, and these were invariably urdu speakers from Karachi
> > area.

> > I think we should definitely play in Karachi where there is much
> > goodwill for India and its people.

> > Vinay

> I have not interacted with as many Pakistanis as you have, but I have found
> Punjabi Pakistanis to be quite nice to get along with. Of course, this
> could have a lot to do with a shared language and culture (much as modern
> Pakistani "history" may try to place its roots in the Perso-Arabic sphere)
> as well as the unrepresentative sample I encountered. The bonhomie lasts as
> long as you do not bring up history, and there too some seem to indicate
> that they regret the Partition.

Yes, I have had this experience, but never with Punjabis - only with
Muhajirs. Quite a few seemed to regret partition and leaving India.
Although I must say that at the time I was not aware of this
difference, and only now when I think back I realize all those were
urdu speakers who traced their roots somewhere in UP/Bihar/Deccan.

Quote:

> As to Mohajirs, I have met but a few, and they were as nice (or converse) as
> their Punjabi countrymen.

> And as to playing at Karachi, it is a rank bad idea, goodwill or no
> goodwill. When touring Pakistan, the security of the team must come before
> anything else. There is a great deal of hatred for India (not individual
> Indians necessarily) in many sections of the Pakistani society,

Absolutely agree.

Quote:
> and even if
> you can prove that a bare majority of Pakistanis are not ill-disposed
> towards Indians, you have to remember that Karachi was the place where
> Daniel Pearl was taken before being beheaded in a most ***ic and brutal
> fashion. Sorry, I would put the personal safety of Indian players (yes,
> even Ganguly :) )

You had to didn't you :-)

Vinay

 
 
 

Why India should play at Karachi

Post by Ravi » Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:00:07

Quote:

> While it is obviously at some level a purely security matter, I think
> Indians have the most goodwill among the residents of Karachi, since it
> is home to the mohajir (immigrants from India) community who are
> culturally the same as other Indians.

> I grew up around a lot of Pakistanis (in the middle east), and the only
> ones who were absolutely hostile to Indians were Punjabis. Urdu
> speakers actually found Indian company more agreeable than that of
> Punjabi Pakistanis.  There were a few Pakistanis who used to hang out
> only with Indians, and these were invariably urdu speakers from Karachi
> area.

> I think we should definitely play in Karachi where there is much
> goodwill for India and its people.

> Vinay

Men's cricket is business and big bucks and hence the need for
security. Quoting from Prem Panicker's blog (someone sent an email).

++++++++++++++++++++
With all the security fuss being made about Karachi in the upcoming
Pakistan tour, did you notice that the Pakistan-India Asia Cup match
was played in, guess where, Karachi? No advance security detail (at
least not that we know of), no government directives, not even any
concern raised by the media that our women were going to play there.
++++++++++++++++++++

So it seems security is to protect the 'productive BCCI assets',
otherwise who cares?

- Ravi