Sport Today

by **Neo** » Sat, 03 Jan 2004 19:56:43

All,

In India and in Australia, we see few posters complaining about
selectors favoring a few states. There used to be this time in Indian
cricket where there used to be loads of players from mumbai (SMG,DBV,
Sandeep Patil) and another time where the karnataka team and the indian
team looked very similar (RSD, JS, AK and a few also rans like Vijay
Bharadwaj, David Johnson). I have seen australian posters complaining
that players from the states of NSW and Victoria get into the team
easier and stay there longer than players from the other states (WA, SA
and Tasmania ).

I was wondering if such things do happen in other countries like
England, SA and the West Indies. The WestIndies are very particular
about such instances, IMHO. I remember a particular test in barbados
(??) when people didn't turn up since a local cricketer (anderson
cummins ??) was dropped.

Can the english, SA-n and westindian supporters share their opinion on
hints of favoritism to states in their national team ??

Neo.

by **Framp** » Sat, 03 Jan 2004 23:06:10

Quote:

> Bharadwaj, David Johnson). I have seen australian posters complaining
> that players from the states of NSW and Victoria get into the team

Not sure about other countries - but utter BS about Australia - As far as I
am concerned (as a Mexican - i.e. Victorian) , our Players get less of a
chance than others - case in point... Hayden, though he finally proved
himself, he got mroe of a chance than say Matty Ellitott who was a quality
opening batter! NSW is by far an away favoured by the selectors IMHO in
Australia!

Count the current squash for players... Shit load from NSW, couple from NSW,
couple from elsewhere... sweet FA victorian's in the team! Just saying,
don't group us with them, the Vic's for such a large state get very little
assistance from the selectors who are for the majority NSW based
(remembering Qld'ers that Border is actually from NSW despite not playing
for them that much!)

by **Bob Dube** » Sat, 03 Jan 2004 23:52:52

Quote:

> Can the english, SA-n and westindian supporters share their opinion on
> hints of favoritism to states in their national team ??

I don't think it goes on in SA. Recently we've had Nel and Hall from
an unfashionable province but playing for SA.

However, there are various schools of thought.

In the Johannesburg papers there is a stink every time a
Gauteng/Highveld/Transvaal (the name keeps on changing) player gets
dropped. There hasn't been a lot of this lately because G/H/T players
don't get picked that often. Kruger was in the squad for T1, but he's
an import in his first season and so might not count. Some members of
the Jo'burg press are still stuck 20 years in the past when Springbok
teams picked to play whichever bunch of mercenaries were in town would
have a majority of Transvaal players. I think the mean machine once
had 9 in the XI against the rebel Australians.

Natal papers and supporters believe there is a *** to load the
team with WP players and to have a WP captain. THAT is why the
snotnose Smith replaced Pollock and started badmouthing the white
knight Klusener. And look at how useless gits like Gibbs, Kirsten and
Kallis keep on getting picked.

by **John Hal** » Sat, 03 Jan 2004 20:16:45

Quote:

>All,

>In India and in Australia, we see few posters complaining about
>selectors favoring a few states.

Few? I'd have said that we see quite a lot.

<snip>

Quote:

>I was wondering if such things do happen in other countries like
>England, SA and the West Indies. The WestIndies are very particular
>about such instances, IMHO. I remember a particular test in barbados
>(??) when people didn't turn up since a local cricketer (anderson
>cummins ??) was dropped.

>Can the english, SA-n and westindian supporters share their opinion on
>hints of favoritism to states in their national team ??

There have been suggestions by some people that selection of the English
team is biased towards counties in the London area (Middlesex, Surrey,
Essex and Kent). I don't think that there's really much evidence of
that. However there have been occasional selections of players from the
same county as the Test captain that I've suspected owed something to
the captain's advocacy, and where it seemed unlikely that the player
would have been picked had he played for a different county. (In
England, the captain has normally been one of the selection panel.)
--
John Hall "He crams with cans of poisoned meat
The subjects of the King,
And when they die by thousands G.K.Chesterton:
Why, he laughs like anything." from "Song Against Grocers"

by **alve** » Sun, 04 Jan 2004 06:51:39

snip

Quote:

> There have been suggestions by some people that selection of the English
> team is biased towards counties in the London area (Middlesex, Surrey,
> Essex and Kent). I don't think that there's really much evidence of
> that. However there have been occasional selections of players from the
> same county as the Test captain that I've suspected owed something to
> the captain's advocacy, and where it seemed unlikely that the player
> would have been picked had he played for a different county. (In
> England, the captain has normally been one of the selection panel.)

Wandering slightly here John, but I'd opine that there's actually two
biases in English selections. Region and Oxbridge/top school.

Thinking Pringle, Brearley, Edmonds etc

Comments?

alvey

by **John Hal** » Sun, 04 Jan 2004 07:08:05

Quote:

>Wandering slightly here John, but I'd opine that there's actually two
>biases in English selections. Region and Oxbridge/top school.

>Thinking Pringle, Brearley, Edmonds etc

>Comments?

Those players are all from some way back. I'm not sure that their
selection indicates bias. Edmonds was probably the best left-arm spinner
in the country at the time. Brearley was very successful as a batsman
below Test level, but may have had more chances than he should have done
prior to becoming captain and ascending to God-hood. Pringle had
astonishing figures against the counties whilst still at Cambridge, and
his original selection I think was justified, but he was arguably
persisted with much too long.

From the same era, I can also think of Tavare and Vic Marks. In the case
of all these players, with the exception of Pringle, I don't think that
they were picked until they had had considerable success for their
counties.

In recent years, the only selections that I can think of with an
Oxbridge background have been Atherton and Hussain, both clearly worth a
place on merit.
--
John Hall Weep not for little Leonie
Abducted by a French Marquis!
Though loss of honour was a wrench
Just think how it's improved her French. Harry Graham (1874-1936)

by **John Hal** » Sun, 04 Jan 2004 07:18:08

Quote:

>In recent years, the only selections that I can think of with an
>Oxbridge background have been Atherton and Hussain, both clearly worth a
>place on merit.

To correct myself, Hussain of course went to Durham University, not
Oxford or Cambridge. (And Atherton didn't have a traditional public
school background, having been to Manchester Grammar School.)
--
John Hall Weep not for little Leonie
Abducted by a French Marquis!
Though loss of honour was a wrench
Just think how it's improved her French. Harry Graham (1874-1936)

by **Mike Holman** » Sun, 04 Jan 2004 07:46:13

Quote:

>>Can the english, SA-n and westindian supporters share their opinion on
>>hints of favoritism to states in their national team ??

>There have been suggestions by some people that selection of the English
>team is biased towards counties in the London area (Middlesex, Surrey,
>Essex and Kent). I don't think that there's really much evidence of
>that. However there have been occasional selections of players from the
>same county as the Test captain that I've suspected owed something to
>the captain's advocacy, and where it seemed unlikely that the player
>would have been picked had he played for a different county. (In
>England, the captain has normally been one of the selection panel.)

I basically agree, although there are clear examples where favouritism
has ruled, most recently Ray Illingworth's bizarre enthusiasm for
Yorkshire-born players when he was Lord High Everything in the
mid-90s.

Winning teams tend to get a lot of their players picked, possibly on
the unsound theory that if a player does well for a team that does
well, he must be a good player.

However, there is little doubt in my mind that there are a few
unfashionable counties - Derbyshire, Northants and Glamorgan spring to
mind - and that a player has to be extra-specially good to get picked
if he plays for them. I don't think it's in any way a deliberate
policy. It may be something to do with their fans: all those sides
have fans who can usually be described as "morose", standing around
with shoulders hunched and given to lugubrious comments along the
lines of "Well, at least this beer's good. Pity about the team, ain't
it?" and "Not a-***y-gain!" as some perpetually disappointing
batsman chips it to mid-off for the fifth time this season.

If you do a statistical analysis, I expect you will find that there is
something of a southern bias in selection, but I suspect the biggest
factor in that is that the pitches tend to be better and the weather
more conducive to continuous play, thus showing off the players to
better advantage.

Cheers,

Mike

by **Mike Holman** » Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:24:28

Quote:

>>Wandering slightly here John, but I'd opine that there's actually two
>>biases in English selections. Region and Oxbridge/top school.

>>Thinking Pringle, Brearley, Edmonds etc

>>Comments?

>Those players are all from some way back. I'm not sure that their
>selection indicates bias. Edmonds was probably the best left-arm spinner
>in the country at the time.

And was very much considered an all-rounder, since he made several
centuries in f-c cricket early on.

Quote:

>Brearley was very successful as a batsman
>below Test level, but may have had more chances than he should have done
>prior to becoming captain and ascending to God-hood.

Two Tests against WI in 1976 and dropped, and then the tour of India
the following winter, when he averaged just over 30. And then there
was Packer, which came just in time to save his place.

Quote:

>Pringle had
>astonishing figures against the counties whilst still at Cambridge, and
>his original selection I think was justified, but he was arguably
>persisted with much too long.

And there was definitely a case of Essex mafia in the persistence,
because Gnome Fletcher was in charge. His previous background wasn't
as important as the fact that he was close to Gooch and Fletcher.

Quote:

>From the same era, I can also think of Tavare and Vic Marks. In the case
>of all these players, with the exception of Pringle, I don't think that
>they were picked until they had had considerable success for their
>counties.

>In recent years, the only selections that I can think of with an
>Oxbridge background have been Atherton and Hussain, both clearly worth a
>place on merit.

You've already corrected yourself on Hussain.

However, the following players have got Blues since 1980 and
subsequently played for England:

DR Pringle
TS Curtis
MA Atherton
SP James
JP Crawley
JER Gallian
ET Smith

That's more names than you expected, isn't it? Well, it's more than I
expected, anyway. I knew about Smith, Atherton and Pringle, but the
others hadn't really registered as being Varsity men. The only one I
think it benefited was Crawley, who I now recall impressed the touring
Australians when they played against him while he was up.

Others who have played a fair amount of county cricket:

AJT Miller
GJ Toogood (actually, not too good)
RJ Boyd-Moss
PGP Roebuck
JD Carr
MA Crawley
SP Henderson
RR Montgomerie
WS Kendall
IJ Sutcliffe
JN Batty
MA Wagh
PS Jones
JMM Averis
JWM Dalrymple

Of those, Wagh is likely to play for England, and Dalrymple is a
long-term maybe.

If you want to find examples of the kind of class bias that Alvey's
referring to, you can go back fifty years or more and find them all
over the place. Nowadays, I don't think it has any bearing at all. In
that playing for Oxford or Cambridge used to get you f-c experience
before you played for a county, it was a help, I guess, but now that
there are 4-6 UCCEs playing f-c cricket, that opportunity is spread
rather wider these days.

Cheers,

Mike

by **Mad Hamis** » Sun, 04 Jan 2004 12:55:53

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:06:10 +1000, "Frampy"

Quote:

>Not sure about other countries - but utter BS about Australia - As far as I
>am concerned (as a Mexican - i.e. Victorian) , our Players get less of a
>chance than others - case in point... Hayden, though he finally proved
>himself, he got mroe of a chance than say Matty Ellitott who was a quality
>opening batter!

Really?
Elliott was picked after
a) not producing for as long as Hayden had
b) averaging lower than Hayden had
c) being outscored by Hayden in a tour match (Hayden scored a double
100, Elliott didn't and Hayden scored at a faster rate in terms of
runs per ball while Elliott was still there)
d) Hayden was dropped after 1 really bad tour (for which Elliott's
running takes some of the credit)
e) Elliott was dropped later after a similar series
f) Elliott was recalled before Hayden and had an absolutely stinking
tour _and_ apparently was a huge tosser on the tour
--
"Hope is replaced by fear and dreams by survival, most of us get by."
Stuart Adamson 1958-2001

Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws

by **Philip Felto** » Sun, 04 Jan 2004 14:23:45

Quote:

> >In recent years, the only selections that I can think of with an
> >Oxbridge background have been Atherton and Hussain, both clearly worth a
> >place on merit.

> To correct myself, Hussain of course went to Durham University, not
> Oxford or Cambridge. (And Atherton didn't have a traditional public
> school background, having been to Manchester Grammar School.)
> --

MGS isn't exactly your neighborhood state school either!

Phil.

by **Philip Felto** » Sun, 04 Jan 2004 14:30:26

Quote:

> >>Wandering slightly here John, but I'd opine that there's actually two
> >>biases in English selections. Region and Oxbridge/top school.

> >>Thinking Pringle, Brearley, Edmonds etc

> >>Comments?

> >Those players are all from some way back. I'm not sure that their
> >selection indicates bias. Edmonds was probably the best left-arm spinner
> >in the country at the time.

> And was very much considered an all-rounder, since he made several
> centuries in f-c cricket early on.

> >Brearley was very successful as a batsman
> >below Test level, but may have had more chances than he should have done
> >prior to becoming captain and ascending to God-hood.

> Two Tests against WI in 1976 and dropped, and then the tour of India
> the following winter, when he averaged just over 30. And then there
> was Packer, which came just in time to save his place.

> >Pringle had
> >astonishing figures against the counties whilst still at Cambridge, and
> >his original selection I think was justified, but he was arguably
> >persisted with much too long.

> And there was definitely a case of Essex mafia in the persistence,
> because Gnome Fletcher was in charge. His previous background wasn't
> as important as the fact that he was close to Gooch and Fletcher.

> >From the same era, I can also think of Tavare and Vic Marks. In the case
> >of all these players, with the exception of Pringle, I don't think that
> >they were picked until they had had considerable success for their
> >counties.

> >In recent years, the only selections that I can think of with an
> >Oxbridge background have been Atherton and Hussain, both clearly worth a
> >place on merit.

> You've already corrected yourself on Hussain.

> However, the following players have got Blues since 1980 and
> subsequently played for England:

> DR Pringle
> TS Curtis
> MA Atherton
> SP James
> JP Crawley
> JER Gallian
> ET Smith

> That's more names than you expected, isn't it? Well, it's more than I
> expected, anyway. I knew about Smith, Atherton and Pringle, but the
> others hadn't really registered as being Varsity men. The only one I
> think it benefited was Crawley, who I now recall impressed the touring
> Australians when they played against him while he was up.

They made a big fuss about James having opened with Atherton at University
when he was called in as an 11th hr replacement.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> Others who have played a fair amount of county cricket:

> AJT Miller
> GJ Toogood (actually, not too good)
> RJ Boyd-Moss
> PGP Roebuck
> JD Carr
> MA Crawley
> SP Henderson
> RR Montgomerie
> WS Kendall
> IJ Sutcliffe
> JN Batty
> MA Wagh
> PS Jones
> JMM Averis
> JWM Dalrymple

> Of those, Wagh is likely to play for England, and Dalrymple is a
> long-term maybe.

> If you want to find examples of the kind of class bias that Alvey's
> referring to, you can go back fifty years or more and find them all
> over the place. Nowadays, I don't think it has any bearing at all. In
> that playing for Oxford or Cambridge used to get you f-c experience
> before you played for a county, it was a help, I guess, but now that
> there are 4-6 UCCEs playing f-c cricket, that opportunity is spread
> rather wider these days.

I recall Frank Hayes playing at Sheffield University when I worked there and
I think Chris Broad played at Nottingham U.

Phil.

by **John Hal** » Sun, 04 Jan 2004 18:41:02

Quote:

>> To correct myself, Hussain of course went to Durham University, not
>> Oxford or Cambridge. (And Atherton didn't have a traditional public
>> school background, having been to Manchester Grammar School.)

>MGS isn't exactly your neighborhood state school either!

It certainly isn't, but AIUI to get a place there you have to be bright
rather than rich.
--
John Hall

"I am not young enough to know everything."
Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

by **John Hal** » Sun, 04 Jan 2004 18:47:30

Quote:

>>In recent years, the only selections that I can think of with an
>>Oxbridge background have been Atherton and Hussain, both clearly worth a
>>place on merit.

>You've already corrected yourself on Hussain.

>However, the following players have got Blues since 1980 and
>subsequently played for England:

>DR Pringle
>TS Curtis
>MA Atherton
>SP James
>JP Crawley
>JER Gallian
>ET Smith

>That's more names than you expected, isn't it?

It is, though when I said "recent years" I was thinking of more like
1990 than 1980, so Pringle and probably Curtis would fall outside it. I
hadn't realised that James went to Oxford/Cambridge, but I should have
been able to come up with the names of the others. Of those, only
Crawley has hyad an extended run, and that's probably due to how
successful he's been at county level. (Along with Hick and Ramprakash,
he forms the trio who look like world-beaters for their counties but who
haven't quite been able to do it at Test level.)
--
John Hall

"I am not young enough to know everything."
Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

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