On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by R Bharat Ra » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 21:03:14


sdavmor suggested there was a vast difference between Harbhajan's non-
lbw and Ian Bell's recall. And I agree, but it got me thinking.

Harbhajan was excoriated for reportedly calling Symonds a monkey.
Branded a racist, probably one of the worst tags to pin on a man
today.  I for one believe he probably did use the "M" word (my issue
was that the burden of proof was not met, but thats not the subject of
this essay), and that if he did, it either was the traditional Indian
curse "maa ki" or done deliberately to get under Symonds' skin.  But I
don't believe it was racist.  In the context of India, monkey isn't
racist, period.

Cue, bazillions of articles, including one from jz (just remember this
one) that racism is defined by the culture of the recipient not the
broadcaster -- fair enough.

Fast forward to 2011 when Hussain called the Indian team a bunch of
donkeys or some such.  Now, not for a moment do I believe Hussain was
being racist, that he was referring to the slow-footed Indian
fielding.

But, in India *donkey* is a pretty severe insult.  To be called a
donkey in India, is to be called extremely stupid, lazy, shiftless and
lacking in all social graces to boot (the fact that donkeys are
intelligent and hard working is irrelevant).  It is not a pleasant
thing -- reserved by Indian teachers for the back benchers who are the
bottom 5% of the academic ladder.  It stings deep into the Indian
psyche.

Again, I know his intention was not to say anything like that, but one
could argue (on far far stronger ground than one could for Harbhajan)
that Hussain would be quite aware of the cultural significance of his
slur.

So, just wondering when the Harbhajan-hammerer's would apply the same
standard to this case.  Or is it only the case that you would be
offended if the slur is one *you* find offensive, but ignore those
that other recepients would?  That you would offer Hussain
forgiveness, but not Harbhajan, because you know Hussain's context is
not racist, and ignore all suggestions that in Harbhajan's context .
That somehow Harbhajan's offense is worse because it was against one
man, and Hussain's against some unnamed members (worse, IMO, because
it slurs the whole team -- think how someone like Laxman, a man who
was well on his way to becoming a doctor had he not convinced his
parents to let him try cricket for a year, and plans to continue his
medical studies, would feel about being called a donkey, given the
definition above?)

The post will probably bring out all the loonies who will scream about
racist Aussies / English -- I request you to ignore those, and focus
on this topic.

Bharat

 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by jzfredrick » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 22:01:09


Quote:
> sdavmor suggested there was a vast difference between Harbhajan's non-
> lbw and Ian Bell's recall. And I agree, but it got me thinking.

> Harbhajan was excoriated for reportedly calling Symonds a monkey.
> Branded a racist, probably one of the worst tags to pin on a man
> today.  I for one believe he probably did use the "M" word (my issue
> was that the burden of proof was not met, but thats not the subject of
> this essay), and that if he did, it either was the traditional Indian
> curse "maa ki" or done deliberately to get under Symonds' skin.  But I
> don't believe it was racist.  In the context of India, monkey isn't
> racist, period.

> Cue, bazillions of articles, including one from jz (just remember this
> one) that racism is defined by the culture of the recipient not the
> broadcaster -- fair enough.

Indeed. What Nasser intended doesn't really matter. If an India player
was greatly insulted by that comment, then they were greatly insulted.
Period.
Where intent matters is how easy it is to accept the apology.
I've never heard of "donkey" being used as a racist insult, so if Nasser
is accused of racism and he says "sorry, I didn't mean it that way" I'd
accept that at face value.

 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by RSX » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 22:23:32


Quote:
> sdavmor suggested there was a vast difference between Harbhajan's non-
> lbw and Ian Bell's recall. And I agree, but it got me thinking.

> Harbhajan was excoriated for reportedly calling Symonds a monkey.
> Branded a racist, probably one of the worst tags to pin on a man
> today. ?I for one believe he probably did use the "M" word (my issue
> was that the burden of proof was not met, but thats not the subject of
> this essay), and that if he did, it either was the traditional Indian
> curse "maa ki" or done deliberately to get under Symonds' skin. ?But I
> don't believe it was racist. ?In the context of India, monkey isn't
> racist, period.

> Cue, bazillions of articles, including one from jz (just remember this
> one) that racism is defined by the culture of the recipient not the
> broadcaster -- fair enough.

> Fast forward to 2011 when Hussain called the Indian team a bunch of
> donkeys or some such. ?Now, not for a moment do I believe Hussain was
> being racist, that he was referring to the slow-footed Indian
> fielding.

> But, in India *donkey* is a pretty severe insult. ?To be called a
> donkey in India, is to be called extremely stupid, lazy, shiftless and
> lacking in all social graces to boot (the fact that donkeys are
> intelligent and hard working is irrelevant). ?It is not a pleasant
> thing -- reserved by Indian teachers for the back benchers who are the
> bottom 5% of the academic ladder. ?It stings deep into the Indian
> psyche.

> Again, I know his intention was not to say anything like that, but one
> could argue (on far far stronger ground than one could for Harbhajan)
> that Hussain would be quite aware of the cultural significance of his
> slur.

> So, just wondering when the Harbhajan-hammerer's would apply the same
> standard to this case. ?Or is it only the case that you would be
> offended if the slur is one *you* find offensive, but ignore those
> that other recepients would? ?That you would offer Hussain
> forgiveness, but not Harbhajan, because you know Hussain's context is
> not racist, and ignore all suggestions that in Harbhajan's context .
> That somehow Harbhajan's offense is worse because it was against one
> man, and Hussain's against some unnamed members (worse, IMO, because
> it slurs the whole team -- think how someone like Laxman, a man who
> was well on his way to becoming a doctor had he not convinced his
> parents to let him try cricket for a year, and plans to continue his
> medical studies, would feel about being called a donkey, given the
> definition above?)

> The post will probably bring out all the loonies who will scream about
> racist Aussies / English -- I request you to ignore those, and focus
> on this topic.

> Bharat

For starters, Harby's offense (if he actually used the Monkey word at
Sydney) is a repeat offense as Symonds apparently spoke to him in
Mumbai before that series.
 The Indian team members have been called more offensive words than
donkey on the field (remember Indian counter charges against Aussies
for calling them bastards in the same series?). And donkey though
offensive probably is relatively lower in the order of offensiveness
(at least not as offensive as a racist slur).
So, I would say Indian team should not bother about it.

I am not sure if Hussain is even going to apologize. So, there is no
question of forgiveness here. Personally Hussein's alleged offense is
no big deal (not like the 'Terrorist' comment).

 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by higg » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 22:36:34


Quote:
> sdavmor suggested there was a vast difference between Harbhajan's non-
> lbw and Ian Bell's recall. And I agree, but it got me thinking.

> Harbhajan was excoriated for reportedly calling Symonds a monkey.
> Branded a racist, probably one of the worst tags to pin on a man
> today. ?I for one believe he probably did use the "M" word (my issue
> was that the burden of proof was not met, but thats not the subject of
> this essay), and that if he did, it either was the traditional Indian
> curse "maa ki" or done deliberately to get under Symonds' skin. ?But I
> don't believe it was racist. ?In the context of India, monkey isn't
> racist, period.

> Cue, bazillions of articles, including one from jz (just remember this
> one) that racism is defined by the culture of the recipient not the
> broadcaster -- fair enough.

> Fast forward to 2011 when Hussain called the Indian team a bunch of
> donkeys or some such. ?Now, not for a moment do I believe Hussain was
> being racist, that he was referring to the slow-footed Indian
> fielding.

> But, in India *donkey* is a pretty severe insult. ?To be called a
> donkey in India, is to be called extremely stupid, lazy, shiftless and
> lacking in all social graces to boot (the fact that donkeys are
> intelligent and hard working is irrelevant). ?It is not a pleasant
> thing -- reserved by Indian teachers for the back benchers who are the
> bottom 5% of the academic ladder. ?It stings deep into the Indian
> psyche.

> Again, I know his intention was not to say anything like that, but one
> could argue (on far far stronger ground than one could for Harbhajan)
> that Hussain would be quite aware of the cultural significance of his
> slur.

> So, just wondering when the Harbhajan-hammerer's would apply the same
> standard to this case. ?Or is it only the case that you would be
> offended if the slur is one *you* find offensive, but ignore those
> that other recepients would? ?That you would offer Hussain
> forgiveness, but not Harbhajan, because you know Hussain's context is
> not racist, and ignore all suggestions that in Harbhajan's context .
> That somehow Harbhajan's offense is worse because it was against one
> man, and Hussain's against some unnamed members (worse, IMO, because
> it slurs the whole team -- think how someone like Laxman, a man who
> was well on his way to becoming a doctor had he not convinced his
> parents to let him try cricket for a year, and plans to continue his
> medical studies, would feel about being called a donkey, given the
> definition above?)

> The post will probably bring out all the loonies who will scream about
> racist Aussies / English -- I request you to ignore those, and focus
> on this topic.

> Bharat

So referring to the Indian effort this summer as slow footed and lazy
(and by extension stupid, shiftless and lacking in all social graces)
is racist, but calling a black guy a monkey isn't?

Well I'll be dipped in dogshit......

Higgs

 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by jzfredrick » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 22:39:30


Quote:
> So referring to the Indian effort this summer as slow footed and lazy
> (and by extension stupid, shiftless and lacking in all social graces)
> is racist, but calling a black guy a monkey isn't?

> Well I'll be dipped in dogshit......

Yep. RSC takes 1 step forwards (someone like Subi admitting monkey, in
this context, was racist) and 2 steps backwards (someone as respected as
Bharat saying that monkey, in this context, isn't racist).
 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by R Bharat Ra » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 23:23:04


Quote:

> So referring to the Indian effort this summer as slow footed and lazy
> (and by extension stupid, shiftless and lacking in all social graces)
> is racist, but calling a black guy a monkey isn't?

> Well I'll be dipped in dogshit......

Mr Higgs, do read what I have said, in my thread.  I am giving both
Harbhajan & Hussain the benefit of the doubt, and *THAT* is
consistent.  As I did Gavaskar.

What I'm finding somewhat confusing is the resounding silence from
those -- such as yourself, unless I have your mixed up with someone
else -- who have roundly condemned Harbhajan, but are saying nothing
about Hussain.  Kindly enlighten me when you've climbed out of
whatever you have dipped yourself in (and I'm fairly tolerant, but I
fail to see the redeeming features of a bath in dog err. poop).

Bharat

 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by Indian Poss » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 23:31:30


Quote:
> sdavmor suggested there was a vast difference between Harbhajan's non-
> lbw and Ian Bell's recall. And I agree, but it got me thinking.

> Harbhajan was excoriated for reportedly calling Symonds a monkey.
> Branded a racist, probably one of the worst tags to pin on a man
> today. ?I for one believe he probably did use the "M" word (my issue
> was that the burden of proof was not met, but thats not the subject of
> this essay), and that if he did, it either was the traditional Indian
> curse "maa ki" or done deliberately to get under Symonds' skin. ?But I
> don't believe it was racist. ?In the context of India, monkey isn't
> racist, period.

> Cue, bazillions of articles, including one from jz (just remember this
> one) that racism is defined by the culture of the recipient not the
> broadcaster -- fair enough.

> Fast forward to 2011 when Hussain called the Indian team a bunch of
> donkeys or some such. ?Now, not for a moment do I believe Hussain was
> being racist, that he was referring to the slow-footed Indian
> fielding.

> But, in India *donkey* is a pretty severe insult. ?To be called a
> donkey in India, is to be called extremely stupid, lazy, shiftless and
> lacking in all social graces to boot (the fact that donkeys are
> intelligent and hard working is irrelevant). ?It is not a pleasant
> thing -- reserved by Indian teachers for the back benchers who are the
> bottom 5% of the academic ladder. ?It stings deep into the Indian
> psyche.

> Again, I know his intention was not to say anything like that, but one
> could argue (on far far stronger ground than one could for Harbhajan)
> that Hussain would be quite aware of the cultural significance of his
> slur.

> So, just wondering when the Harbhajan-hammerer's would apply the same
> standard to this case. ?Or is it only the case that you would be
> offended if the slur is one *you* find offensive, but ignore those
> that other recepients would? ?That you would offer Hussain
> forgiveness, but not Harbhajan, because you know Hussain's context is
> not racist, and ignore all suggestions that in Harbhajan's context .
> That somehow Harbhajan's offense is worse because it was against one
> man, and Hussain's against some unnamed members (worse, IMO, because
> it slurs the whole team -- think how someone like Laxman, a man who
> was well on his way to becoming a doctor had he not convinced his
> parents to let him try cricket for a year, and plans to continue his
> medical studies, would feel about being called a donkey, given the
> definition above?)

> The post will probably bring out all the loonies who will scream about
> racist Aussies / English -- I request you to ignore those, and focus
> on this topic.

> Bharat

Couple of points :

1. Hussain is half Indian

2. Context is important

3. Certain epithets applied to a race or nationality are more
insulting than others

4. Comparison with the Harbajan situation muddies the issue

 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by R Bharat Ra » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 23:32:52


Quote:

> > So referring to the Indian effort this summer as slow footed and lazy
> > (and by extension stupid, shiftless and lacking in all social graces)
> > is racist, but calling a black guy a monkey isn't?

> > Well I'll be dipped in dogshit......

> Yep. RSC takes 1 step forwards (someone like Subi admitting monkey, in
> this context, was racist) and 2 steps backwards (someone as respected as
> Bharat saying that monkey, in this context, isn't racist).

Really, I never said it wasn't racist.  And what Subi said is
irrelevant.  And jz, do read what I wrote.  I am asking for
consistency, and rather than ignoring that you and Higgs have resorted
to the old fashioned method of defense -- attack someone on something
completely irrelevant.

I'm not defending my defending Harbhajan. I'm saying that if YOU
condemn Harbhajan as a racist for calling someone a monkey when in HIS
CONTEXT, it may not be racist -- on the grounds that you are convinced
with your Western context that it is racist -- why not by extension be
consistent?

Condemn Hussain with a tenth of the vituperation you have unleashed on
Harby --  not that lollypop sappy pop in this thread -- and you will
have my respect, at least of being intellectually consistent.  It was
raised in Indian Parliament for cripes sake (a huge overreaction, IMO,
as I would have ignored both instances -- but it does tell you that it
isn't a trivial matter by any means).

I simply find myself bemused by the lather you worked yourself up
regarding Harbhajan who (may have) insulted one man, but ignore the
obvious hurt caused to a entire team.  I'm assuming and giving  you
the benefit of the doubt that the lack of wrath has nothing to do with
the fact that it had to do with who insulted whom -- just looking for
another explanation.

So do me a favor, and don't focus on the defense of Harbhajan and the
defense of Hussain, which I will take up as hotly were he accused.

I'm asking you to explain how you choose to attack Harbhajan with a
vengeance rarely seen on rsc (ignoring loonies), but maintain a
discrete silence where Hussain is concerned...

Bharat

 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by jzfredrick » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 23:34:53


Quote:


>> So referring to the Indian effort this summer as slow footed and lazy
>> (and by extension stupid, shiftless and lacking in all social graces)
>> is racist, but calling a black guy a monkey isn't?

>> Well I'll be dipped in dogshit......

> Mr Higgs, do read what I have said, in my thread.  I am giving both
> Harbhajan&  Hussain the benefit of the doubt, and *THAT* is
> consistent.  As I did Gavaskar.

I thought you said;

"I for one believe he probably did use the "M" word (my issue
was that the burden of proof was not met, but thats not the subject of
this essay), and that if he did, it either was the traditional Indian
curse "maa ki" or done deliberately to get under Symonds' skin.  But I
don't believe it was racist.  In the context of India, monkey isn't
racist, period."

What did you mean by "In the context of India, monkey isn't racist,
period."?

 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by R Bharat Ra » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 23:37:37


Quote:
> I am not sure if Hussain is even going to apologize. So, there is no
> question of forgiveness here. Personally Hussein's alleged offense is
> no big deal (not like the 'Terrorist' comment).

Thats what I don't get.  I don't see the difference between monkey
(not an insult in the Indian context, an insult in the Western
context) and donkey (apparently not an insult in the Western context,
but a big deal in India, as it was even brought up in Parliament).

Look, I couldn't care less if Hussain is asked to apologize.  I am not
for an instant bothered by what he said.

I'm just wondering why those who were shocking appalled by Harbhajan's
alleged insult (and there is some doubt about what he said) to the
extent of screaming flame wars on rsc, are at the same time completely
ignoring what Hussain said to the extent, where "if he says he didn't
mean it as a racist insult, lets move on," is a fine defense....

Again, no issues with Hussain.  Just with those who would condemn one
not the other.

Bharat [who really likes Hussain's commentary]

 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by R Bharat Ra » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 23:39:31


Quote:
> Couple of points :

> 1. Hussain is half Indian

> 2. Context is important

> 3. Certain epithets applied to a race or nationality are more
> insulting than others

> 4. Comparison with the Harbajan situation muddies the issue

With all respect, "bull."  These may be valid, but none so as to
preclude a complete silence on when, and rank vituperation on the
other.  At least a discussion would seem to be warranted from those so
offended by Harbhajan?
Bharat
 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by jzfredrick » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 23:40:26


Quote:


>>> So referring to the Indian effort this summer as slow footed and lazy
>>> (and by extension stupid, shiftless and lacking in all social graces)
>>> is racist, but calling a black guy a monkey isn't?

>>> Well I'll be dipped in dogshit......

>> Yep. RSC takes 1 step forwards (someone like Subi admitting monkey, in
>> this context, was racist) and 2 steps backwards (someone as respected as
>> Bharat saying that monkey, in this context, isn't racist).

> Really, I never said it wasn't racist.

If (big if) Harby did say "monkey", do you think it was done so as a
racist taunt?

Do you think Nasser intended "donkey" to be a racist taunt?

 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by Indian Poss » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 23:45:52


Quote:

> > Couple of points :

> > 1. Hussain is half Indian

> > 2. Context is important

> > 3. Certain epithets applied to a race or nationality are more
> > insulting than others

> > 4. Comparison with the Harbajan situation muddies the issue

> With all respect, "bull." ?These may be valid, but none so as to
> preclude a complete silence on when, and rank vituperation on the
> other. ?At least a discussion would seem to be warranted from those so
> offended by Harbhajan?
> Bharat

I defended Harbajan. I thought he was undeservedly maligned.
 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by R Bharat Ra » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 23:47:47


ght you said;

Quote:

> "I for one believe he probably did use the "M" word (my issue
> was that the burden of proof was not met, but thats not the subject of
> this essay), and that if he did, it either was the traditional Indian
> curse "maa ki" or done deliberately to get under Symonds' skin. ?But I
> don't believe it was racist. ?In the context of India, monkey isn't
> racist, period."

> What did you mean by "In the context of India, monkey isn't racist,
> period."?

My point is that if you accept cultural context as a defense for
Hussain, you must consider it as a defense for Harbhajan.  Yet you
ignore the cultural context -- that donkey is a hundred times worse to
an Indian as is Monkey -- and condemn one while blithely ignoring the
other.

I am not seeking to justify a defense of Harbhajan -- though a tip of
the hat for skillfully evading the fundamental question I asked based
on a throw away line / para in my post -- but the point remains:

If you are so outraged by what Harbhajan allegedly said (and it is
still alleged, mind you), then why aren't you a tenth as perturbed by
what Hussain said, when you know that it is deeply offensive in the
Indian context (as in, it was discussed in Parliament).

For the record, I think the Harbhajan thing was blown hugely out of
proportion.  Far more inflammatory things have been said by Aussies &
English to Indians on the field (a good ex-Test cricketer friend on
mine repeated those to me -- and those are appalling questioning your
parenthood, your *** preferences, your mother's faithfulness,
***ual relationships with parents -- all fine to do and just "boys
will be boys" in Western context apparently -- but grave insults to an
Indian, and "monkey" is as milk and honey in comparison) -- which is
why I find myself bemused -- still -- by the Harbhajan thing.

BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT of my question.

My point is that those of you who so condemn Harbhajan, and completely
ignore the Indian cultural context, in which calling someone a
motherf****r, *c***s****r, & other things is 100-times worse than
"monkey", are now only apparently silent because they are writing
letters to their MP and to SKY demanding Hussain's sacking??

Bharat

 
 
 

On donkeys, monkeys and "vast differences"

Post by Mike Holman » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 23:55:45

On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 05:03:14 -0700 (PDT), R Bharat Rao

Quote:
>Harbhajan was excoriated for reportedly calling Symonds a monkey.
>Branded a racist, probably one of the worst tags to pin on a man
>today.  I for one believe he probably did use the "M" word (my issue
>was that the burden of proof was not met, but thats not the subject of
>this essay), and that if he did, it either was the traditional Indian
>curse "maa ki" or done deliberately to get under Symonds' skin.  But I
>don't believe it was racist.  In the context of India, monkey isn't
>racist, period.

>Cue, bazillions of articles, including one from jz (just remember this
>one) that racism is defined by the culture of the recipient not the
>broadcaster -- fair enough.

>Fast forward to 2011 when Hussain called the Indian team a bunch of
>donkeys or some such.  Now, not for a moment do I believe Hussain was
>being racist, that he was referring to the slow-footed Indian
>fielding.

One massive difference that you are overlooking is that Harbhajan
Singh was directly abusing another player on the field of play, while
Hussain is a TV commentator working for an English TV channel
broadcasting to an English audience.

The culture of the recipients was therefore English.

The situations are hardly comparable.

Cheers,

Mike
--