WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by outsourcingbusin.. » Thu, 29 Mar 2007 01:34:40


Recently, someone on rsc mentioned that why would Pakistan throw away
the Ireland match and risk not coming into the super eight. After all
they stood a lot to gain (not just by thier countrymen's accolades)
but also the fact that they could have thrown a couple of matches in
the super eight and made more money. It does make some sense and
therefore I spoke to someone who discussed this with a senior
journalist in Mumbai.

The journalist stated that in his humble opinion the WI vs Pak match
was fixed. He is quite sure of that. The Ireland vs Pak match in his
opinion was not fixed. Pakistan threw the WI match figuring that they
would still qualify for the super eight by beating Ireland and
Zimbabwe.

Now this doesn't change the equation of the fact that match fixing
exists. Merely, which match was fixed.

Of course it could well be the case that some Pakistanis on hearing
that the WI match was fixed decided to make money and throw even the
Ireland match but it was quite interesting to hear this journalist say
the above.

 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by sdavmo » Thu, 29 Mar 2007 01:50:53

Quote:

> Recently, someone on rsc mentioned that why would Pakistan throw away
> the Ireland match and risk not coming into the super eight. After all
> they stood a lot to gain (not just by thier countrymen's accolades)
> but also the fact that they could have thrown a couple of matches in
> the super eight and made more money. It does make some sense and
> therefore I spoke to someone who discussed this with a senior
> journalist in Mumbai.

> The journalist stated that in his humble opinion the WI vs Pak match
> was fixed. He is quite sure of that. The Ireland vs Pak match in his
> opinion was not fixed. Pakistan threw the WI match figuring that they
> would still qualify for the super eight by beating Ireland and
> Zimbabwe.

> Now this doesn't change the equation of the fact that match fixing
> exists. Merely, which match was fixed.

> Of course it could well be the case that some Pakistanis on hearing
> that the WI match was fixed decided to make money and throw even the
> Ireland match but it was quite interesting to hear this journalist say
> the above.

YMMV, but going back and watching the highlights of both those games
I see a team who's batting failed to handle two bowling attacks that
were really on targt each of those days.  If I thought there was
anything hinky I'd watch both games in their entirety but beaten fair
and square is exactly what I see "on tape".
--
Cheers,
SDM -- a 21st century schizoid man
Systems Theory internet music project links:
official site <www.systemstheory.net>
soundclick <www.soundclick.com/systemstheory>
garageband <www.garageband.com/artist/systemstheory>
"Soundtracks For Imaginary Movies" CD released Dec 2004
"Codetalkers" CD coming very soon
NP: nothing

 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by shariq_ta.. » Thu, 29 Mar 2007 01:58:16


Quote:

> YMMV, but going back and watching the highlights of both those games
> I see a team who's batting failed to handle two bowling attacks that
> were really on targt each of those days.  If I thought there was
> anything hinky I'd watch both games in their entirety but beaten fair
> and square is exactly what I see "on tape".

I have to agree with you. By putting a fixing angle is giving too much
credit to the Pakistani cricket team and its capablities

 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by outsourcingbusin.. » Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:56:06


Quote:

> > Recently, someone on rsc mentioned that why would Pakistan throw away
> > the Ireland match and risk not coming into the super eight. After all
> > they stood a lot to gain (not just by thier countrymen's accolades)
> > but also the fact that they could have thrown a couple of matches in
> > the super eight and made more money. It does make some sense and
> > therefore I spoke to someone who discussed this with a senior
> > journalist in Mumbai.

> > The journalist stated that in his humble opinion the WI vs Pak match
> > was fixed. He is quite sure of that. The Ireland vs Pak match in his
> > opinion was not fixed. Pakistan threw the WI match figuring that they
> > would still qualify for the super eight by beating Ireland and
> > Zimbabwe.

> > Now this doesn't change the equation of the fact that match fixing
> > exists. Merely, which match was fixed.

> > Of course it could well be the case that some Pakistanis on hearing
> > that the WI match was fixed decided to make money and throw even the
> > Ireland match but it was quite interesting to hear this journalist say
> > the above.

> YMMV, but going back and watching the highlights of both those games
> I see a team who's batting failed to handle two bowling attacks that
> were really on targt each of those days.  If I thought there was
> anything hinky I'd watch both games in their entirety but beaten fair
> and square is exactly what I see "on tape".

You could be right. WI are certainly good enough to beat Pakistan on
merit. And may have won even if the match was not fixed. By stating
the match was fixed does not mean that WI cannot beat Pakistan on
merit. They certainly can. It simply means that Pakistan assured the
WI victory in lieu of money.

It was just a hypothesis by a very senior journalist that in his
humble opinion it was the WI vs Pak match which was fixed. Of course
it could well be the case that even the Ireland match might have been
fixed. But he feels that that one might not have been fixed.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> --
> Cheers,
> SDM -- a 21st century schizoid man
> Systems Theory internet music project links:
> official site <www.systemstheory.net>
> soundclick <www.soundclick.com/systemstheory>
> garageband <www.garageband.com/artist/systemstheory>
> "Soundtracks For Imaginary Movies" CD released Dec 2004
> "Codetalkers" CD coming very soon
> NP: nothing- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by outsourcingbusin.. » Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:59:23



Quote:

> > YMMV, but going back and watching the highlights of both those games
> > I see a team who's batting failed to handle two bowling attacks that
> > were really on targt each of those days.  If I thought there was
> > anything hinky I'd watch both games in their entirety but beaten fair
> > and square is exactly what I see "on tape".

> I have to agree with you. By putting a fixing angle is giving too much
> credit to the Pakistani cricket team and its capablities

Like I said above. Pakistan may well have lost that match on merit
alone. However, by fixing the match they assured the victory to the
WI. Of course that may not be the case. No one really knows what
happened except for the fixers and the players. But this senior
journalist was speaking from his experience and in his humble opinion
felt that while the Ireland match may or may not have been fixed the
WI vs Pak match was almost certainly fixed.
 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by dp » Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:16:01


Quote:
> > Of course it could well be the case that some Pakistanis on hearing
> > that the WI match was fixed decided to make money and throw even the
> > Ireland match but it was quite interesting to hear this journalist say
> > the above.

> YMMV, but going back and watching the highlights of both those games
> I see a team who's batting failed to handle two bowling attacks that
> were really on targt each of those days.  If I thought there was
> anything hinky I'd watch both games in their entirety but beaten fair
> and square is exactly what I see "on tape".

I have never been able to understand this concept. How exactly can one
determine whether a match was fixed or not by watching the tape?
Difference between solidly middling the ball and getting completely
beaten and bowled is only a couple of inches. Given that, how can
anyone figure out if a batsman deliberately played outside the line of
the ball or was genuinely beaten? Same goes for any form of dismissal.
Just don't move your feet properly, don't get into the right position,
do any of those and you will get out sooner or later against any test
class attack. At that level, you need to do a lot of things right to
stay at the crease and score. Right from having a good sleep
overnight, warming up and exercising properly etc. Even if you don't
do some of those you are most likely to not do well, even if you don't
do anything deliberately wrong on the field.

Given that, I think it is silly to conclude anything about fixing by
watching the tape.

dp

 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by Viqar Ahme » Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:36:25


Quote:
> I have never been able to understand this concept. How exactly can one
> determine whether a match was fixed or not by watching the tape?
> Difference between solidly middling the ball and getting completely
> beaten and bowled is only a couple of inches. Given that, how can
> anyone figure out if a batsman deliberately played outside the line of
> the ball or was genuinely beaten? Same goes for any form of dismissal.
> Just don't move your feet properly, don't get into the right position,
> do any of those and you will get out sooner or later against any test
> class attack. At that level, you need to do a lot of things right to
> stay at the crease and score. Right from having a good sleep
> overnight, warming up and exercising properly etc. Even if you don't
> do some of those you are most likely to not do well, even if you don't
> do anything deliberately wrong on the field.

> Given that, I think it is silly to conclude anything about fixing by
> watching the tape.

I think you can get a much better sense, from the body language of the
players,
whether (or not) a team is putting forth the effort to win the match.
 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by dp » Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:55:32


Quote:

> > I have never been able to understand this concept. How exactly can one
> > determine whether a match was fixed or not by watching the tape?
> > Difference between solidly middling the ball and getting completely
> > beaten and bowled is only a couple of inches. Given that, how can
> > anyone figure out if a batsman deliberately played outside the line of
> > the ball or was genuinely beaten? Same goes for any form of dismissal.
> > Just don't move your feet properly, don't get into the right position,
> > do any of those and you will get out sooner or later against any test
> > class attack. At that level, you need to do a lot of things right to
> > stay at the crease and score. Right from having a good sleep
> > overnight, warming up and exercising properly etc. Even if you don't
> > do some of those you are most likely to not do well, even if you don't
> > do anything deliberately wrong on the field.

> > Given that, I think it is silly to conclude anything about fixing by
> > watching the tape.

> I think you can get a much better sense, from the body language of the
> players,
> whether (or not) a team is putting forth the effort to win the match.

So you think it is not possible for the players to appear all
determined and still make some basic mistakes deliberately? I mean, I
go to crease with fierce determination in my eyes, maybe even punch
the air after hitting a boundary and next ball just be a fraction of
second slow in bringing the bat to ball and be caught plumb in front.

Note, one can certainly reasonably suspect when there is a blatantly
deliberate attempt to fix - like say Kaif running his partner out (I
forgot who - some debutant TN batsman) in India's one-day loss to BD
couple of years back, or Inzamam's ridiculous go-slow tactics against
India in WC '99, etc. But just the absence of such blatant attempts
doesn't mean there is no subtler fixing going on. Usually such blatant
methods are resorted to when only a few players are involved - in
Kaif's case for example he had to get the debutant run out because the
debutant was probably not involved and the target and bowling were
easy enough for him to achieve a win single handedly in the company of
tailenders. But you don't need to be so blatant if most of the team is
involved.

dp

 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by Viqar Ahme » Thu, 29 Mar 2007 17:15:58


Quote:

> So you think it is not possible for the players to appear all
> determined and still make some basic mistakes deliberately?

Yes, in a way that is what I think. Sure it is possible to jump up and
down and attempt to look energetic and all that; but if it is all a
fake
then it is going to come out clearly in the course of the entire
game.

Quote:
> I mean, I
> go to crease with fierce determination in my eyes, maybe even punch
> the air after hitting a boundary and next ball just be a fraction of
> second slow in bringing the bat to ball and be caught plumb in front.

Dunno, but have you ever watched this charade called WWF wrestling
on American TV? There is no shortage of action, but how much that
appears
genuine to you?
 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by dp » Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:03:23


Quote:

> > So you think it is not possible for the players to appear all
> > determined and still make some basic mistakes deliberately?

> Yes, in a way that is what I think. Sure it is possible to jump up and
> down and attempt to look energetic and all that; but if it is all a
> fake
> then it is going to come out clearly in the course of the entire
> game.

It doesn't have to be all fake. They could fake just one ball and be
back in the pavilion. Even otherwise, I don't agree that it is bound
to come out.

Quote:
> > I mean, I
> > go to crease with fierce determination in my eyes, maybe even punch
> > the air after hitting a boundary and next ball just be a fraction of
> > second slow in bringing the bat to ball and be caught plumb in front.

> Dunno, but have you ever watched this charade called WWF wrestling
> on American TV? There is no shortage of action, but how much that
> appears
> genuine to you?

None. But that is because WWF doesn't even try to make it look
genuine. That doesn't mean cricketers can't make it look genuine if
they want to.

dp

 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by max. » Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:05:05


-> > Of course it could well be the case that some Pakistanis on
hearing
-> > that the WI match was fixed decided to make money and throw even
the
-> > Ireland match but it was quite interesting to hear this
journalist say
-> > the above.
->
-> YMMV, but going back and watching the highlights of both those
games
-> I see a team who's batting failed to handle two bowling attacks
that
-> were really on targt each of those days.  If I thought there was
-> anything hinky I'd watch both games in their entirety but beaten
fair
-> and square is exactly what I see "on tape".
-
-I have never been able to understand this concept. How exactly can
one
-determine whether a match was fixed or not by watching the tape?
-Difference between solidly middling the ball and getting completely
-beaten and bowled is only a couple of inches. Given that, how can
-anyone figure out if a batsman deliberately played outside the line
of
-the ball or was genuinely beaten? Same goes for any form of
dismissal.
-Just don't move your feet properly, don't get into the right
position,
-do any of those and you will get out sooner or later against any test
-class attack. At that level, you need to do a lot of things right to
-stay at the crease and score. Right from having a good sleep
-overnight, warming up and exercising properly etc. Even if you don't
-do some of those you are most likely to not do well, even if you
don't
-do anything deliberately wrong on the field.
-
-Given that, I think it is silly to conclude anything about fixing by
-watching the tape.
-
-dp
-

All the Pakistani batsmen got out caught against Ireland.

max.it

 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by Tweedle De » Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:58:06


Quote:
> Note, one can certainly reasonably suspect when there is a blatantly
> deliberate attempt to fix - like say Kaif running his partner out (I
> forgot who - some debutant TN batsman) in India's one-day loss to BD
> couple of years back, or Inzamam's ridiculous go-slow tactics against
> India in WC '99, etc. But just the absence of such blatant attempts
> doesn't mean there is no subtler fixing going on. Usually such blatant
> methods are resorted to when only a few players are involved - in
> Kaif's case for example he had to get the debutant run out because the
> debutant was probably not involved and the target and bowling were
> easy enough for him to achieve a win single handedly in the company of
> tailenders. But you don't need to be so blatant if most of the team is
> involved.

Eh? Kaif was involved in deliberately running out a player against
Bangladesh a couple of years back? Haven't heard this one before.

--TD

 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by Viqar Ahme » Fri, 30 Mar 2007 06:36:00


Quote:

> > Note, one can certainly reasonably suspect when there is a blatantly
> > deliberate attempt to fix - like say Kaif running his partner out (I
> > forgot who - some debutant TN batsman) in India's one-day loss to BD
> > couple of years back, or Inzamam's ridiculous go-slow tactics against
> > India in WC '99, etc. But just the absence of such blatant attempts
> > doesn't mean there is no subtler fixing going on. Usually such blatant
> > methods are resorted to when only a few players are involved - in
> > Kaif's case for example he had to get the debutant run out because the
> > debutant was probably not involved and the target and bowling were
> > easy enough for him to achieve a win single handedly in the company of
> > tailenders. But you don't need to be so blatant if most of the team is
> > involved.

> Eh? Kaif was involved in deliberately running out a player against
> Bangladesh a couple of years back? Haven't heard this one before.

> --TD

Man! Where do you live? Next you'll say he did not invade Iraq in
2003.
Everything that goes wrong in Indian cricket is because of Kaif. Get
it?
 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by dp » Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:31:43


Quote:

> -> > Of course it could well be the case that some Pakistanis on
> hearing
> -> > that the WI match was fixed decided to make money and throw even
> the
> -> > Ireland match but it was quite interesting to hear this
> journalist say
> -> > the above.
> ->
> -> YMMV, but going back and watching the highlights of both those
> games
> -> I see a team who's batting failed to handle two bowling attacks
> that
> -> were really on targt each of those days.  If I thought there was
> -> anything hinky I'd watch both games in their entirety but beaten
> fair
> -> and square is exactly what I see "on tape".
> -
> -I have never been able to understand this concept. How exactly can
> one
> -determine whether a match was fixed or not by watching the tape?
> -Difference between solidly middling the ball and getting completely
> -beaten and bowled is only a couple of inches. Given that, how can
> -anyone figure out if a batsman deliberately played outside the line
> of
> -the ball or was genuinely beaten? Same goes for any form of
> dismissal.
> -Just don't move your feet properly, don't get into the right
> position,
> -do any of those and you will get out sooner or later against any test
> -class attack. At that level, you need to do a lot of things right to
> -stay at the crease and score. Right from having a good sleep
> -overnight, warming up and exercising properly etc. Even if you don't
> -do some of those you are most likely to not do well, even if you
> don't
> -do anything deliberately wrong on the field.
> -
> -Given that, I think it is silly to conclude anything about fixing by
> -watching the tape.
> -
> -dp
> -

> All the Pakistani batsmen got out caught against Ireland.

> max.it
>From the post you were replying to:

"Same goes for any form of dismissal.
Just don't move your feet properly, don't get into the right position,
do any of those and you will get out sooner or later against any test
class attack. At that level, you need to do a lot of things right to
stay at the crease and score."

dp

 
 
 

WI vs Pak was fixed but Pak vs Ire may not have been

Post by max. » Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:20:25



-> -> > Of course it could well be the case that some Pakistanis on
-> hearing
-> -> > that the WI match was fixed decided to make money and throw
even
-> the
-> -> > Ireland match but it was quite interesting to hear this
-> journalist say
-> -> > the above.
-> ->
-> -> YMMV, but going back and watching the highlights of both those
-> games
-> -> I see a team who's batting failed to handle two bowling attacks
-> that
-> -> were really on targt each of those days.  If I thought there was
-> -> anything hinky I'd watch both games in their entirety but beaten
-> fair
-> -> and square is exactly what I see "on tape".
-> -
-> -I have never been able to understand this concept. How exactly can
-> one
-> -determine whether a match was fixed or not by watching the tape?
-> -Difference between solidly middling the ball and getting
completely
-> -beaten and bowled is only a couple of inches. Given that, how can
-> -anyone figure out if a batsman deliberately played outside the
line
-> of
-> -the ball or was genuinely beaten? Same goes for any form of
-> dismissal.
-> -Just don't move your feet properly, don't get into the right
-> position,
-> -do any of those and you will get out sooner or later against any
test
-> -class attack. At that level, you need to do a lot of things right
to
-> -stay at the crease and score. Right from having a good sleep
-> -overnight, warming up and exercising properly etc. Even if you
don't
-> -do some of those you are most likely to not do well, even if you
-> don't
-> -do anything deliberately wrong on the field.
-> -
-> -Given that, I think it is silly to conclude anything about fixing
by
-> -watching the tape.
-> -
-> -dp
-> -
->
-> All the Pakistani batsmen got out caught against Ireland.
->
-> max.it
-
->From the post you were replying to:
-"Same goes for any form of dismissal.
-Just don't move your feet properly, don't get into the right
position,
-do any of those and you will get out sooner or later against any test
-class attack. At that level, you need to do a lot of things right to
-stay at the crease and score."
-
-dp
-

If Pakistan did throw the match, then the whole team must have been in
on it. Though if you look at the fow for both teams innings, it would
suggest that the only difference was that Pakistan got bowled out for
less than they needed.
I would guess that Pakistan just plain assumed victory and blundered.
Same old problem, big team having no respect for the little team.
They couldn't get Botha off the square and he squeezed them into
panic.

Botha
8  4  5         2  0  0         0.62

max.it