Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by Kevin Minni » Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:00:00


So, another recent loss and the American team wonders why? How could we
lose the Cup; we have the best players in the world, don't we? Well, that
question begs to be answered. Today, Yesterday, this weekend, NO. most of
the time? Yes. however, we get kicked in the Cup competition for a simple
reason: the American tour very rarely produces any really tough players
due to the conditions that they play under week in and week out. The
courses are perfect, green carpets that favor the players with wide
fairways, large greens and lush conditions. The PGA doesn't make chipping
a premium, nor does it encourage bump-n-run shots with the amount of
watering given the Tour courses. I know...you're thinking "how does that
make somebody tough?". Well, when was the last time you were down 2 holes
in a match and needed to make something happen and all you had to do was
consider whether or not you were gonna bump the ball up on the green and
let it run or try to flop it and hope it stops before it runs off the
green due to the hard nature of the surface? That kind of play will make
you tough. If you ever have the opportunity to play some of the links
courses in Europe, see what the locals are like if you can play with them.
This summer I played with some older Irish gentlemen and, believe me, they
would thrash some of the younger players I know, just because they have to
in order to play good round. The European courses are not taken care of
like ours, and I believe the players are the better for it. Currently the
money isn't there to attract better players, but if you need proof of that
happens to the American tour, then look no further than the Open
Championship and the U.S. Open. Scores ballon, people ***and generally
all higgledy-piggledy ensues. We need to play tougher to get better.
Otherwise, we'll continue to***in Ryder Cup.

--
"Dont' forget to stop and smell the roses along the way"-Walter Hagen
XOXO, km

 
 
 

Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by Smokehous » Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:00:00

I would say the main reason we lost the Ryder Cup is simply because the
European players are better than the US players.  That's about all there is
to it.  The Euro Tour is every bit as competitive as the US tour, and it
only shows the arrogance of the US contingent to once again say it should
have been a romp, at least on paper.  That is the same mentality which sat
idly by an watched the Japanese leave us in the dust in the auto industry,
the electronics industry, and will be content to watch the Japanese take
the computer industry by the turn of the century as well.  I'll take anyone
willing to bet right now that the cup will remain across the pond after the
' 99 festivities have concluded.  If there was a Ryder Cup competition for
sitting around and talking about how great we are, I'm pretty sure the US
would win that.

 
 
 

Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by paal naes » Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:00:00

Don't be so harsh on the US team, after all they did great in the singles,
as always. And your players dominated the majors this year, so it is not
that you haven't great players. The problem seems to be playing with a
partner. Too large ego's to handle team work?


Quote:
> I would say the main reason we lost the Ryder Cup is simply because the
> European players are better than the US players.  That's about all there
is
> to it.  The Euro Tour is every bit as competitive as the US tour, and it
> only shows the arrogance of the US contingent to once again say it should
> have been a romp, at least on paper.  


 
 
 

Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by \ » Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> The problem seems to be playing with a
> partner. Too large ego's to handle team work?

An interesting theory, though I'm not sure I agree.

But clearly, the Americans have traditionally had better success in the
singles matches than in the doubles--in particular in "fourball."  And
in recent years, they've dug themselves such a hole that they couldn't
dig out in the singles matches.  Such was the case again in '97.

I do think the Europeans look at the competition as a way to prove
something, while the Americans recognize that they have less to
prove--that they are generally regarded worldwide as the best players
(hence the role as the "favorite").  As underdogs, the European players
recognize this biennial competition as a way to steal some of the
acclaim.

But I think most people agree that to be considered the best player in
the world, you have to win on the PGA TOUR.  Because of economic
difficulties, a number of Europe's biggest stars will be going to Q
school this fall, including Darren Clarke and Lee Westwood.  Look for
them to be playing in America next year.

Randy
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Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by Dane Elli » Tue, 30 Sep 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


> > The problem seems to be playing with a
> > partner. Too large ego's to handle team work?

> An interesting theory, though I'm not sure I agree.*****

I think the answer is less complicated and summed up in Seve's words,
that this may have been the strongest team ever fielded by Europe. I
think the north american media continues to be blinded by the potential
of Tiger, and is unable to recognize golf as a game with many dimensions
- power being but one. To put it into perspective, Faldo, who most of us
would pick as better than most of the American team, didn't make the
European side on points. He was a captain's pick. The rest of the Seve's
squad must be fairly good looked at from this perspective.

D.E.

 
 
 

Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by Hanno Prin » Tue, 30 Sep 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> To put it into perspective, Faldo, who most of us
> would pick as better than most of the American team, didn't make the
> European side on points. He was a captain's pick. The rest of the Seve's
> squad must be fairly good looked at from this perspective.
> D.E.

Faldo did not make it on points, simply because he played in Europe very
rarely. Playing the full schedule he would have made it pretty easy, I
guess ...

                                              Hanno

 
 
 

Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by Rhino B0 » Tue, 30 Sep 1997 04:00:00

There is one simple reason why America lost, not good enough on the day.
All the crapabout Europe holing  all the putts etc, USA not having enough
practice all a load of ........just count yourselfs lucky  that you had so
many chip insor longputts holed on Sunday or else it would have been
embarassing. With it finishing so close the American public will probably
think , nothing to worry about, it could have gone either way in the end.
Think again, its time the USA started to realise they are standing still
while the rest of the world is passing them by. Keeping your head in the
sandandassumingthe PGA tour is still the best is only asking for more of
the same.

Quote:
>But clearly, the Americans have traditionally had better success in the
>singles matches than in the doubles--in particular in "fourball."  And
>in recent years, they've dug themselves such a hole that they couldn't
>dig out in the singles matches.  Such was the case again in '97.

When was the last time Europe won the foresomes?

Quote:

>I do think the Europeans look at the competition as a way to prove
>something, while the Americans recognize that they have less to
>prove--that they are generally regarded worldwide as the best players
>(hence the role as the "favorite").  As underdogs, the European players
>recognize this biennial competition as a way to steal some of the
>acclaim.

No the USA players are only regarded as the best in the world if you are
American. At the moment theres only 2 outstanding talents about, Woods and
Norman. Apart from them theres not a lot between the next 40. Any of them
can win a tour event.
Woods is an exceptional player but has yet to proove he has the bottle for
serious matchplay. All of the UK still remember him losing the Walker cup
thanks to hooking out of bounds against Gary Wolstenholme on the 18th (mid
iron shot)

Quote:

>But I think most people agree that to be considered the best player in
>the world, you have to win on the PGA TOUR.  Because of economic
>difficulties, a number of Europe's biggest stars will be going to Q
>school this fall, including Darren Clarke and Lee Westwood.  Look for
>them to be playing in America next year.

The best players in the world win anywhere. Remember apart from the US Masters
nobody in the rest of the world gives a toss about USA tour events. US
Open might get an odd hour or two coverage but unless Montgomery gets into
a playoff really nobody is interested (and we only watch Montgomery to see
him throw his teddy out of the cot when things start to go wrong)
 
 
 

Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by JEC86 » Wed, 01 Oct 1997 04:00:00

Everyone is overanalyzing why the US lost the Cup again. It's really very
simple. There is a razor thin difference in the talent between the two
teams and on a given day, anyone on either team is capable of beating
anyone on the other team. For two of the three days, Europe simply dropped
more crucial putts. The final day, it turned around but not enough to make
up the difference. If those two teams played 10 times, they would probably
win five apiece, no matter where they played.

John

 
 
 

Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by Doug Gillia » Wed, 01 Oct 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> Everyone is overanalyzing why the US lost the Cup again. It's really very
> simple. There is a razor thin difference in the talent between the two
> teams and on a given day, anyone on either team is capable of beating
> anyone on the other team. For two of the three days, Europe simply dropped
> more crucial putts. The final day, it turned around but not enough to make
> up the difference. If those two teams played 10 times, they would probably
> win five apiece, no matter where they played.

John,

I agree with you.  The match was won on Saturday when the Europeans
couldn't miss a putt and the Americans couldn't make one.  What I
can't understand is how Europeans can take this and make all kinds
statements like the Europeans are so much better than the Americans
and all of that crap.  The Americans aren't as bad of putters as
they were on Saturday and the Europeans aren't as good of putters
as they were on Saturday.

Do these European fans really believe that the Europeans are good
enough to sink those putts normally.  Hey, they got hot and they
won the match and I congratulate them for it; but, all of this
***is just too much ... I refuse to respond to any of it.

Also, I want to know if the LOUD cheering when the Americans
missed a putt would have been considered O.K. if it had been
Americans doing it ... I DON'T THINK SO!  It must be nice to
live in another country and have everything so simple ...
let's see ... if it was an American, it's bad ... if it's not
an American, it's O.K. ... seems kinda easy.  Anyway, I just
want you all to know that what you are doing is childish and
immature and perfectly obvious to the most casual observer.

Doug Gilliam

Quote:

> John

 
 
 

Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by \ » Wed, 01 Oct 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> The best players in the world win anywhere.
> Remember apart from the US Masters nobody
> in the rest of the world gives a toss about
> USA tour events.

Then why are more and more European Tour players coming over to the US
to play on the PGA TOUR?  Fact is, the American tour is where the big
money is, and those who want to compete in "the big arena" have to come
to the USA.

That's not to take away from quality of players on the European Tour,
they're fine players.

But it will be interesting when Westwood and a few of the other top
Europeans come to the US to play on our tour.  That'll mean that fewer
of the top European players will rack up enough points to make the top
ten in '99, leaving the Ryder Cup captain with a real dilemma.  This
year it worked out pretty well for Seve, getting to pick Faldo and
Parnevik.  But when Westwood, Clarke and possibly one or two more are
playing the PGA TOUR regularly, that'll leave a weaker team to secure
spots in the top 10, and not enough captain's picks to get all the rest
of the better players.

Randy

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Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by Milo » Wed, 01 Oct 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


> > The best players in the world win anywhere.
> > Remember apart from the US Masters nobody
> > in the rest of the world gives a toss about
> > USA tour events.

> Then why are more and more European Tour players coming over to the US
> to play on the PGA TOUR?  Fact is, the American tour is where the big
> money is, and those who want to compete in "the big arena" have to come
> to the USA.

> That's not to take away from quality of players on the European Tour,
> they're fine players.

> But it will be interesting when Westwood and a few of the other top
> Europeans come to the US to play on our tour.  That'll mean that fewer
> of the top European players will rack up enough points to make the top
> ten in '99, leaving the Ryder Cup captain with a real dilemma.  This
> year it worked out pretty well for Seve, getting to pick Faldo and
> Parnevik.  But when Westwood, Clarke and possibly one or two more are
> playing the PGA TOUR regularly, that'll leave a weaker team to secure
> spots in the top 10, and not enough captain's picks to get all the rest
> of the better players.

> Randy

Thats why Europe soon will be using the world rankings to pick their
team.
Milo

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

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Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by Jonas Holmgre » Thu, 02 Oct 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> Also, I want to know if the LOUD cheering when the Americans
> missed a putt would have been considered O.K. if it had been
> Americans doing it ... I DON'T THINK SO!  It must be nice to
> live in another country and have everything so simple ...
> let's see ... if it was an American, it's bad ... if it's not
> an American, it's O.K. ... seems kinda easy.  Anyway, I just
> want you all to know that what you are doing is childish and
> immature and perfectly obvious to the most casual observer.

No Doug, what is obvious to the most casual observer
is the fact that a lot of US guys (I'm not saying all,
since there are some who aren't like you) can't take the defeat.
At Kiawah Island the US fans were absolutely insane, in fact
it's considered as one of the most unsportsman-like crowds ever
to have been to the Ryder Cup.

At Valderrama, the crowds bahaved very good. Vaptain Kite even
gave his best compliments to the crowds for being so
sportsman like, remembering how bad it had been past times in
the USA. His statement should be enough to prove the crowds's
good behaviour. He WAS THERE you know. What you heard was
the European crowds cheering when halving/winning a hole or a point.
And the US people there did EXACTLY the same.

Oh, and BTW, just to add something to the debate; when Woosnam
hit it out in the rough and got to the ball, some US-idiot had
stomped on the ball and run away. Freddie stood up and apologized
on the US-team's behalf. Sad but true.

What do you Doug have to say about that?..."I DON'T THINK SO"... or
what??

Jonas
--
----------------------------------------------------------
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Product Engineer - Ericsson RF IC's & Modules    

http://hem.passagen.se/ekajonh              
----------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by Stan The M » Thu, 02 Oct 1997 04:00:00


Quote:


>> Everyone is overanalyzing why the US lost the Cup again. It's really very
>> simple. There is a razor thin difference in the talent between the two
>> teams and on a given day, anyone on either team is capable of beating
>> anyone on the other team. For two of the three days, Europe simply dropped
>> more crucial putts. The final day, it turned around but not enough to make
>> up the difference. If those two teams played 10 times, they would probably
>> win five apiece, no matter where they played.

>John,

>I agree with you.  The match was won on Saturday when the Europeans
>couldn't miss a putt and the Americans couldn't make one.  What I
>can't understand is how Europeans can take this and make all kinds
>statements like the Europeans are so much better than the Americans
>and all of that crap.  The Americans aren't as bad of putters as
>they were on Saturday and the Europeans aren't as good of putters
>as they were on Saturday.

I don't think we Europeans are saying this, or would ever dream of saying
it. You Americans seem to be saying it. There's no question in my mind that
day in, day out, the Americans are the better putters - and they proved it
on the Sunday. Also, by Sunday, they had had a couple more days to get used
to the Valderamma greens. There's no doubt in my mind that Messrs Faxon,
Mickelson & Co are streets ahead of any Europeans in the putting
department. Westwood isn't a great putter but he did indeed hit a streak.
Rocca and Garrido also seemed to putt great but they were just very steady
on the 6-8 footers.

Quote:
>Do these European fans really believe that the Europeans are good
>enough to sink those putts normally.  Hey, they got hot and they
>won the match and I congratulate them for it; but, all of this
>***is just too much ... I refuse to respond to any of it.

Er, you just did.

Quote:
>Also, I want to know if the LOUD cheering when the Americans
>missed a putt would have been considered O.K. if it had been
>Americans doing it ... I DON'T THINK SO!  It must be nice to
>live in another country and have everything so simple ...
>let's see ... if it was an American, it's bad ... if it's not
>an American, it's O.K. ... seems kinda easy.  Anyway, I just
>want you all to know that what you are doing is childish and
>immature and perfectly obvious to the most casual observer.

I watched every stroke of the Ryder Cup on TV. There was NO loud cheering
when Americans missed a putt. There WAS a little cheering when US putts
were missed at critical stages of some matches and that just happens at
every Ryder Cup. These folk are cheering the fact that their guy just won a
hole - not that some poor *** just missed a putt.

I have watched Ryder Cups for 3 decades. The fans at the last two events
have been tremendous -- very respectful of the opposition and very
knowledgeable.

Stan
--
Stan The Man
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Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by Stan The M » Thu, 02 Oct 1997 04:00:00


Quote:

>No Doug, what is obvious to the most casual observer
>is the fact that a lot of US guys (I'm not saying all,
>since there are some who aren't like you) can't take the defeat.
>At Kiawah Island the US fans were absolutely insane, in fact
>it's considered as one of the most unsportsman-like crowds ever
>to have been to the Ryder Cup.

Gotta say that the US team took defeat with great dignity. And lots of folk
posting here are also taking it well - ie not looking for excuses but just
complimenting the Europeans. I happen to believe that Messrs Love and Faxon
are two of the most decent gentlemen on this earth and that Americans can
be really proud of them. I felt really sorry for Davis and his 'bad hair'
week. He and Brad are a couple of the guys who come over as bigger and
better than the game of golf and I have grown to truly admire them for
their calm, intelligent dignity and generosity of spirit. At least no-one
can take away from Davis that he is one of the world's proven top match
players and I hope he doesn't take the defeat personally. Every US player
can look to a point they lost which they might have won to change the
result.

I was also very impressed with Tom Kite's classy behaviour - although I'm
not so sure it comes so naturally to him.... I remember him being pretty
abrasive (with the media) as a player at a couple of past Ryder Cups.

I was just sorry that a great bunch of guys had to lose, although of course
I was overjoyed that the Europeans won. But I would have to say that, IMHO,
the better human beings lost.

Must add that the Swedes and the Dane were sensational. Johansson was my
pre-match pick to be our MVP because he is such a tiger - as he proved. I
think Sevvy made a mistake in not playing him more. He also made a mistake
in playing Olazabal, Garrido and Westwood too much. I have never seen
golfers so physically exhausted as those who had played 4 or 5 matches in
those heavy conditions, with many of them playing late into the night and
back in action at dawn the next day. Nor have I seen such an exhausted
captain.

Stan

PS Was Costantino on ***? I never saw him so calm. Monty too took his bad
holes with uncharacteristic good grace and even a smile - as did the
usually churlish Faldo. I wonder what Sevvy was feeding them?
--
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Why America can't win the Ryder Cup

Post by Stefan Kühli » Thu, 02 Oct 1997 04:00:00


|I agree with you.  The match was won on Saturday when the Europeans
|couldn't miss a putt and the Americans couldn't make one.  What I
|can't understand is how Europeans can take this and make all kinds
|statements like the Europeans are so much better than the Americans
|and all of that crap.  The Americans aren't as bad of putters as
|they were on Saturday and the Europeans aren't as good of putters
|as they were on Saturday.

|Do these European fans really believe that the Europeans are good
|enough to sink those putts normally.  Hey, they got hot and they
|won the match and I congratulate them for it; but, all of this
|***is just too much ... I refuse to respond to any of it.

Hi Doug,
i think you refuse to respond to something no one has asked for. I
(as a european) can say, that my fellows, the european writers in
this news group and myself thought it would be a close competition.
My impression is, that more people from the us expected a win of the
USA than vice versa.

At least the european players and Kite said it will be a close
competition. From my point of you the top 12 (or  10-15, difficult
to figure out) players from both sides are about nearly equal. You
will find arguments for and against this statement. The US is just
better in depth of good players.

There are great golfers on both side. I'll never forget the round
Couples played on sunday. This was probably the best round of golf,
i've seen over a long time. O'Meara impressed me, too. And
Mickelsons front nine were great, too. On our side it most impressed
me, that Langer told Seve, he didn't want play the fourball on
saturday, because he was not playing good in it on Friday and that
he might help the team more while resting one match, although he
should play all 5. Johannssen was great, too. I was worried, that
Seve didn't let him play on the second day, although he might have
be right, looking at he score tables.=20

The best match for me was Bjorn/Leonard. Bjorn came back from 4 down
to lead the match, but Leonard kept up halving the last hole.

You mentioned that europeans putted better than normally. I think,
they didn't. First of all, i've seen great puts on the american
side. Then there are europeans that just are good in putting. An at
last, just looking at the puts, doesn't make much sense. The best
example was the Woods/O'meara vs. Langer/Monty foursome on friday. I
looked very closely to the approach shots of Langer (which is
considered often as his main strength) and Woods, which hit to the
same green. Langer was nearly every shot closer to the pin. Therefor
it was easier to hole the puts for Monty than for O'Meara, of which
i think, is a good putter (at least in the three days i saw him).
There were a lot of good short irons in these days, and i think the
europeans approached the greens better than the US in the first
days. That made IMHO the difference.

|Also, I want to know if the LOUD cheering when the Americans
|missed a putt would have been considered O.K. if it had been
|Americans doing it ... I DON'T THINK SO!=20

Nobody from europe cared about that in 91. We were worried about
americans applauding bad tee from shots or insulting  european
players. And i guess nobody cheered in the US, when Langer missed
the put in Kiawah Island? :-(

|It must be nice to
|live in another country and have everything so simple ...
|let's see ... if it was an American, it's bad ... if it's not
|an American, it's O.K. ... seems kinda easy.  Anyway, I just
|want you all to know that what you are doing is childish and
|immature and perfectly obvious to the most casual observer.

It isn't childish, it's just might be a little bit of the arrogance
you show to the world outside your borders. Hopefully not all
americans act and think, like you do.

Gru=DF

--=20