Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by bighorn_bi » Sun, 23 Feb 2003 02:04:59


Quote:


> > Since our resident weed-whacker has been pushing this
> > drill, I thought I'd mention that if you do it exactly
> > like Hogan said, with the toe pointing straight up
> > when the shaft is horizontal, you are actually fanning
> > the clubface open.

> > The face is square if it is tilted so that the clubface
> > is looking back more towards the ball. There is some rotation,
> > but not that much.

> Not exactly. You want to look at the bottom edge of the club face and
> it should be on the same angle as the spine. On the backswing where
> you mentioned, it should appear to be closed, or tipping over toward
> the target line. If you were to stand straight up there the bottom
> edge of the club face would be vertical.

> After hitting the ball and approximately in the same position you
> described, except on the other side of the ball the bottom edge of the
> club will appear to be open. But it will again be on the same angle as
> the spine assuming the lean forward is still about the same as at
> address. Stand straight up there and again the bottom edge will be
> vertical.

I think we said the same thing, but you were more precise.
 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by bighorn_bi » Sun, 23 Feb 2003 02:31:41

Quote:



> >Not sure what the confusion is, or if you are trying to make
> >a subtle point that escapes me, but I can point to several
> >books that define it the way I have.  I'll provide references
> >when I get the chance.  Just off the top of my head, I think
> >Hebron, Leadbetter, and Cochran & Stobbs all cover this.

> And I believe they're wrong about this.  They all tell you the toe
> pointing at the ground is open but none explain why.

> >But think of it this way.  If you rotate the club shaft clockwise
> >(to the right) as you take the club back, you are fanning
> >the clubface open, correct?  

> Correct.

> >If you continue to rotate the shaft
> >in that direction, when you reach the top, the toe will be***
> >down.  

> It can depending on what compensating move you make.

> >Conversely, if you rotate the shaft the other direction,
> >you will be closing the clubface, and at the top the clubface
> >will be pointing at the sky (toe horizontal).  Try it.

> I did but I don't see how it proves the clubface is closed.  If you
> take a strong left hand grip it forces the left wrist to bend at the
> top causing the toe to point down.  For argument sake I can say this
> proves the club is closed because a strong left hand grip closes the
> clubface.

> >I take it the Golfing Machine doesn't use these terms?

> It doesn't matter what terms you use the geometry is the same.  Using
> a correct grip if you make the toe of the club point down it bends or
> cups the left wrist and flattens the right.  If I bend or cup my left
> wrist and flatten my right at address or impact it moves the clubhead
> in front of my hands and closes the clubface.  So how can it be open
> in one position but closed in two others?

> Also, if my left wrist is cupped at the top causing the toe to point
> down it has to do a reverse roll motion to become flat in the down
> swing for impact.  You reverse roll closed clubfaces to square them,
> not open clubfaces.  Reverse wrist rolls open clubfaces and I'm sure
> you know reverse rolls cause slices.  It's this reverse roll, not the
> position of the clubface at the top that causes slices.  This is why I
> believe instructors come to the faulty conclusion that the toe
> pointing at the ground is an open clubface.  It's not the position,
> it's the compensating move to over come it that misleads them.

> I'm waiting for new batteries for my digital camera to come in and
> I'll post some pictures showing what I explained above.

I'm still digesting what you wrote here.  However, two points:

1. You agree that everyone else defines these positions as I stated,
right?  Leadbetter, Cochran & Stobbs, Hebron, McLean, Haney...

2. If I understand you correctly, you want to define the position
being closed or open based on what kind of compensating move you
have to make on the downswing to get the club square at impact?

I think most others define the position as being open or closed
as being that way _at that point in the swing_ relative to a swing
that is "square", rather than based on what compensating moves may
_or may not_ be made sometime in the future.

If you are chipping, and you take the club back 1 ft, and at the same
time rotate it to the right (clockwise when looking down the shaft) 90*,
most people would say that you have opened the clubface.  Would you argue
that the clubface is closed because you would have to close the club to
get it square at impact?  What if you didn't do that compensating move?
Then the clubface would be open at impact, and in this case you would
either miss the ball or shank it.

If you continue to lenghten the swing in this example, you eventually
get to the case where you have a full swing and the toe pointing down.
In that case you have rotated the shaft clockwise more than you have
with a "square" swing where the leading edge of the club is parallel
to the swing plane.  It is pretty simple and straight-forward.  That's
why the toe-down position is called open.  If you make no compensation
in the downswing from that position, you will end up at impact with
an open clubface, but that is somewhat beside the point.

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by bighorn_bi » Sun, 23 Feb 2003 02:52:59

Quote:



> >I've played for a long time with an incorrect forearm and clubface rotation
> >on the backswing. I get to a position at the top where the clubface points
> >to the sky. I'm basically playing with a shut clubface. The position feels
> >'strong', yet it is weak. This is beacuse if I do a proper downswing
> >rotation, I'll smother the ball. My only chance is to do a reverse-roll on
> >the downswing and play closed - to - open through impact. The net result is
> >weak. My other option is to try to get down with virtually no forearm
> >rotation and try and really clear my lower body to prevent the clubface from
> >closing any further. I believe that Duval plays this way.

> You need to do what most books advise, practice the takeaway from
> setup to horizontal over and over again--a full length mirror is very
> very helpful in this.   When you arrive at horizontal, your arms
> should be extended fully, and your shoulders are fully turned, you see
> the ball off your right [sic?] shoulder.  Your right upper arm should be
> touching your rib cage (meaning your turned your torso and not just
> your arms), and the club toe should be pointing up--and the club shaft
> aligned with the target line.  

I agree with most of this, except for the toe pointing up.  The toe does
not point straight up at this point in a square-to-square swing.  Hogan
did it, but he was fanning the club open.  That was part of his "secret"
to eliminate hooks.  Most beginners, or even people who have been
playing a long time with a "natural fade" do not need to do this.

Quote:
> If the toe is closed, simply fix
> it--make sure it points up.  

No.  Pointing up is NOT square, it is open.

Quote:

> See Ben Hogan's toe-up to toe-up drill in his "5-Lessons" book.  

Duh.  Look at the title of this thread.

See also Leadbetter "The Fundamentals of Hogan", Hank Haney,
Rick Smith, and countless others.

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Perfect Impac » Sun, 23 Feb 2003 03:36:03



Quote:


> > >I've played for a long time with an incorrect forearm and clubface
rotation
> > >on the backswing. I get to a position at the top where the clubface
points
> > >to the sky. I'm basically playing with a shut clubface. The position
feels
> > >'strong', yet it is weak. This is beacuse if I do a proper downswing
> > >rotation, I'll smother the ball. My only chance is to do a reverse-roll
on
> > >the downswing and play closed - to - open through impact. The net
result is
> > >weak. My other option is to try to get down with virtually no forearm
> > >rotation and try and really clear my lower body to prevent the clubface
from
> > >closing any further. I believe that Duval plays this way.

> > You need to do what most books advise, practice the takeaway from
> > setup to horizontal over and over again--a full length mirror is very
> > very helpful in this.   When you arrive at horizontal, your arms
> > should be extended fully, and your shoulders are fully turned, you see
> > the ball off your right [sic?] shoulder.  Your right upper arm should be
> > touching your rib cage (meaning your turned your torso and not just
> > your arms), and the club toe should be pointing up--and the club shaft
> > aligned with the target line.

> I agree with most of this, except for the toe pointing up.  The toe does
> not point straight up at this point in a square-to-square swing.  Hogan
> did it, but he was fanning the club open.  That was part of his "secret"
> to eliminate hooks.  Most beginners, or even people who have been
> playing a long time with a "natural fade" do not need to do this.

> > If the toe is closed, simply fix
> > it--make sure it points up.

> No.  Pointing up is NOT square, it is open.

> > See Ben Hogan's toe-up to toe-up drill in his "5-Lessons" book.

> Duh.  Look at the title of this thread.

> See also Leadbetter "The Fundamentals of Hogan", Hank Haney,
> Rick Smith, and countless others.

Unfortunately in my estimation, the emphasis on this drill seems to me to be
"off the mark" in that worry about where the toe is is NOT its essence: the
release MOTION OF GOING FROM 90 DEGREES with the left FOREARM to straight
with the attendant natural rollover OF the arms is its essence.

Mid - flight positions need no analysis any more than knowing what your
right earlobe is doing halfway down.  It takes care of itself.

If I grip the club with the grip position (strength) that is needed for
square impact based on MY BODY and its empirically proven amount of natural
rotation back to the ball and then swing without doing things untoward
during the swing, the "toe up or down or around or anything else" is
IRRELEVANT because it takes care of itself.

When I drive down the highway i do not steer my car by every single stripe
in the road: I steer at a target in the distance than automatically puts my
car in the right place on the way.

The picayune attendance to a detail that "ain't broke" is a distraction,
hence an infection, of something that probably runs just fine as long as you
DO steer at the distant target with a bit of care.

George Hibbard
www.perfectimpact.com

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by bighorn_bi » Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:26:56

Quote:







> > > >I've played for a long time with an incorrect forearm and clubface
>  rotation
> > > >on the backswing. I get to a position at the top where the clubface
>  points
> > > >to the sky. I'm basically playing with a shut clubface. The position
>  feels
> > > >'strong', yet it is weak. This is beacuse if I do a proper downswing
> > > >rotation, I'll smother the ball. My only chance is to do a reverse-roll
>  on
> > > >the downswing and play closed - to - open through impact. The net
>  result is
> > > >weak. My other option is to try to get down with virtually no forearm
> > > >rotation and try and really clear my lower body to prevent the clubface
>  from
> > > >closing any further. I believe that Duval plays this way.

> > > You need to do what most books advise, practice the takeaway from
> > > setup to horizontal over and over again--a full length mirror is very
> > > very helpful in this.   When you arrive at horizontal, your arms
> > > should be extended fully, and your shoulders are fully turned, you see
> > > the ball off your right [sic?] shoulder.  Your right upper arm should be
> > > touching your rib cage (meaning your turned your torso and not just
> > > your arms), and the club toe should be pointing up--and the club shaft
> > > aligned with the target line.

> > I agree with most of this, except for the toe pointing up.  The toe does
> > not point straight up at this point in a square-to-square swing.  Hogan
> > did it, but he was fanning the club open.  That was part of his "secret"
> > to eliminate hooks.  Most beginners, or even people who have been
> > playing a long time with a "natural fade" do not need to do this.

> > > If the toe is closed, simply fix
> > > it--make sure it points up.

> > No.  Pointing up is NOT square, it is open.

> > > See Ben Hogan's toe-up to toe-up drill in his "5-Lessons" book.

> > Duh.  Look at the title of this thread.

> > See also Leadbetter "The Fundamentals of Hogan", Hank Haney,
> > Rick Smith, and countless others.

> Unfortunately in my estimation, the emphasis on this drill seems to me to be
> "off the mark" in that worry about where the toe is is NOT its essence: the
> release MOTION OF GOING FROM 90 DEGREES with the left FOREARM to straight
> with the attendant natural rollover OF the arms is its essence.

> Mid - flight positions need no analysis any more than knowing what your
> right earlobe is doing halfway down.  It takes care of itself.

> If I grip the club with the grip position (strength) that is needed for
> square impact based on MY BODY and its empirically proven amount of natural
> rotation back to the ball and then swing without doing things untoward
> during the swing, the "toe up or down or around or anything else" is
> IRRELEVANT because it takes care of itself.

I disagree.  There are many ways to swing, and not all of them
equal.  Some ways are better than others.  If you leave it to chance,
chances are you end up with one of those "other" ways.

I agree that, when you are PLAYING golf, you should not try to
swing by going, step by step, through a sequence of positions.
Not even Jim McLean advocates doing that (contrary to your lies
about him).  However, the positions that you go through DURING
the swing ARE important, and in particular, what you do early
in the swing greatly affects what happens later.

Otherwise, why do video analysis?  You must believe in video
analysis, don't you George?  You offer it on your web site.

You say the release is the sole focus of this drill.  I agree that
it is ONE of the points of the drill, but would argue that
it is not the sole focus or benefit of this drill, since
not much wrist*** is involved  The L to L
drill is much better for teaching release.

Swing plane is another, possibly more important point of
this drill.  If you execute this drill correctly, you are
swinging on-plane.  One-piece takeaway, turn your shoulders,
left arm straight (but right arm bends, unlike Larry's advice)
and when you get to the point where the shaft is horizontal,
if the shaft is not parallel to the target line you are off-plane.

You can also be off-plane even if the club is horizontal and
parallel, but that is less likely, and can be seen easily on video
or working in front of a mirror with tape marking the swing plane.
If you repeatedly practice this drill (correctly), you go a long way
towards grooving an on-plane swing.

The loose cannon, though, is the clubface.  If you
repeatedly practice this drill with the toe pointing up, you are
practicing fanning open the clubface, and will build that into
your swing.  Chances are, at the top, you'll end up with the
toe pointing straight down.  For anyone who slices or fades the
ball, I argue that's not good.

On the other hand, if you practice this same drill with the
clubface tilted over "looking back" more towards the ball,
you have a better chance of ending up at the top in the
"square" position with the leading edge of the clubface
parallel to the swing plane.  

Again, this is just a drill, and not something you conciously
think about when you are making golf swings on the course.  But
if you make thousands of these drill swings in practice, you'll
groove this feel and motion into your real swing, and be able
to take it to the course without thinking about it.  So you are much
better off doing it correctly, rather than in some haphazard "oh,
it will just take care of itself" way.  Practice makes permanent,
not perfect.  Only perfect practice makes perfect.

Another benefit is that the wrist*** works a bit differently
(better) when you keep the clubface square vs when you fan the
clubface open, but that is another subject.

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Perfect Impac » Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:51:50

TOE consciousness is the irrelevancy: the plane and release is the good
essence of the drill.

If the toe IS out of whack, it is indicative of maniuplation going on: one
needs simplicity and naturalness.

But like the earlobe, if you DO go from A (ball) to B (top) without doing
funny stuff, the toe WILL BE WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE simply because it has to
be SOMEwhere.

Obsession with irrelevant details destroys learning.
Yes, we disagree if you think obsessing on toe "UPness" is helpful.

GH



Quote:






> > > > >I've played for a long time with an incorrect forearm and clubface
> >  rotation
> > > > >on the backswing. I get to a position at the top where the clubface
> >  points
> > > > >to the sky. I'm basically playing with a shut clubface. The
position
> >  feels
> > > > >'strong', yet it is weak. This is beacuse if I do a proper
downswing
> > > > >rotation, I'll smother the ball. My only chance is to do a
reverse-roll
> >  on
> > > > >the downswing and play closed - to - open through impact. The net
> >  result is
> > > > >weak. My other option is to try to get down with virtually no
forearm
> > > > >rotation and try and really clear my lower body to prevent the
clubface
> >  from
> > > > >closing any further. I believe that Duval plays this way.

> > > > You need to do what most books advise, practice the takeaway from
> > > > setup to horizontal over and over again--a full length mirror is
very
> > > > very helpful in this.   When you arrive at horizontal, your arms
> > > > should be extended fully, and your shoulders are fully turned, you
see
> > > > the ball off your right [sic?] shoulder.  Your right upper arm
should be
> > > > touching your rib cage (meaning your turned your torso and not just
> > > > your arms), and the club toe should be pointing up--and the club
shaft
> > > > aligned with the target line.

> > > I agree with most of this, except for the toe pointing up.  The toe
does
> > > not point straight up at this point in a square-to-square swing.
Hogan
> > > did it, but he was fanning the club open.  That was part of his
"secret"
> > > to eliminate hooks.  Most beginners, or even people who have been
> > > playing a long time with a "natural fade" do not need to do this.

> > > > If the toe is closed, simply fix
> > > > it--make sure it points up.

> > > No.  Pointing up is NOT square, it is open.

> > > > See Ben Hogan's toe-up to toe-up drill in his "5-Lessons" book.

> > > Duh.  Look at the title of this thread.

> > > See also Leadbetter "The Fundamentals of Hogan", Hank Haney,
> > > Rick Smith, and countless others.

> > Unfortunately in my estimation, the emphasis on this drill seems to me
to be
> > "off the mark" in that worry about where the toe is is NOT its essence:
the
> > release MOTION OF GOING FROM 90 DEGREES with the left FOREARM to
straight
> > with the attendant natural rollover OF the arms is its essence.

> > Mid - flight positions need no analysis any more than knowing what your
> > right earlobe is doing halfway down.  It takes care of itself.

> > If I grip the club with the grip position (strength) that is needed for
> > square impact based on MY BODY and its empirically proven amount of
natural
> > rotation back to the ball and then swing without doing things untoward
> > during the swing, the "toe up or down or around or anything else" is
> > IRRELEVANT because it takes care of itself.

> I disagree.  There are many ways to swing, and not all of them
> equal.  Some ways are better than others.  If you leave it to chance,
> chances are you end up with one of those "other" ways.

> I agree that, when you are PLAYING golf, you should not try to
> swing by going, step by step, through a sequence of positions.
> Not even Jim McLean advocates doing that (contrary to your lies
> about him).  However, the positions that you go through DURING
> the swing ARE important, and in particular, what you do early
> in the swing greatly affects what happens later.

> Otherwise, why do video analysis?  You must believe in video
> analysis, don't you George?  You offer it on your web site.

> You say the release is the sole focus of this drill.  I agree that
> it is ONE of the points of the drill, but would argue that
> it is not the sole focus or benefit of this drill, since
> not much wrist*** is involved  The L to L
> drill is much better for teaching release.

> Swing plane is another, possibly more important point of
> this drill.  If you execute this drill correctly, you are
> swinging on-plane.  One-piece takeaway, turn your shoulders,
> left arm straight (but right arm bends, unlike Larry's advice)
> and when you get to the point where the shaft is horizontal,
> if the shaft is not parallel to the target line you are off-plane.

> You can also be off-plane even if the club is horizontal and
> parallel, but that is less likely, and can be seen easily on video
> or working in front of a mirror with tape marking the swing plane.
> If you repeatedly practice this drill (correctly), you go a long way
> towards grooving an on-plane swing.

> The loose cannon, though, is the clubface.  If you
> repeatedly practice this drill with the toe pointing up, you are
> practicing fanning open the clubface, and will build that into
> your swing.  Chances are, at the top, you'll end up with the
> toe pointing straight down.  For anyone who slices or fades the
> ball, I argue that's not good.

> On the other hand, if you practice this same drill with the
> clubface tilted over "looking back" more towards the ball,
> you have a better chance of ending up at the top in the
> "square" position with the leading edge of the clubface
> parallel to the swing plane.

> Again, this is just a drill, and not something you conciously
> think about when you are making golf swings on the course.  But
> if you make thousands of these drill swings in practice, you'll
> groove this feel and motion into your real swing, and be able
> to take it to the course without thinking about it.  So you are much
> better off doing it correctly, rather than in some haphazard "oh,
> it will just take care of itself" way.  Practice makes permanent,
> not perfect.  Only perfect practice makes perfect.

> Another benefit is that the wrist*** works a bit differently
> (better) when you keep the clubface square vs when you fan the
> clubface open, but that is another subject.

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Larry Whitake » Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:44:59



Quote:





>> >I've played for a long time with an incorrect forearm and clubface
>rotation
>> >on the backswing. I get to a position at the top where the clubface
>points
>> >to the sky. I'm basically playing with a shut clubface. The position
>feels
>> >'strong', yet it is weak. This is beacuse if I do a proper downswing
>> >rotation, I'll smother the ball. My only chance is to do a reverse-roll
>on
>> >the downswing and play closed - to - open through impact. The net result
>is
>> >weak. My other option is to try to get down with virtually no forearm
>> >rotation and try and really clear my lower body to prevent the clubface
>from
>> >closing any further. I believe that Duval plays this way.

>> You need to do what most books advise, practice the takeaway from
>> setup to horizontal over and over again--a full length mirror is very
>> very helpful in this.   When you arrive at horizontal, your arms
>> should be extended fully, and your shoulders are fully turned, you see
>> the ball off your right shoulder.  Your right upper arm should be
>> touching your rib cage (meaning your turned your torso and not just
>> your arms), and the club toe should be pointing up--and the club shaft
>> aligned with the target line.  If the toe is closed, simply fix
>> it--make sure it points up.  That sets your wrists properly and it
>> makes sure your grip is not far from neutral.  The horizontal position
>> dictates your top position and of course it sets your swing plane.
>> Just get it to horizontal correctly and you have a good chance of
>> making a good swing.

>> A fundamentally sound grip is based on your palms always facing one
>> another.  If you opened your hands and dropped the club, your hands
>> should be ready to applaud.  At the backswing horizontal position,
>> they are still there.  At the forward swing horizontal position, they
>> are still there, ready to clap together.

>> As you practice this vitally important first move of the takeaway, to
>> horizontal, make sure that you start with both upper arms tightly
>> glued (but not tense) against your sides.  As you turn like that, your
>> torso turns the club AROUND your body like a washing machine agitator.
>> The golf swing is not up and down nor is it back and forth movement.
>> It is AROUND, just like a baseball swing.

>> As you envision and practice your swing AROUND your body like a
>> baseball swing, remember that the club toe opens fully when the club
>> is horizontal going back, squares up through the ball position, and
>> then opens at horizontal during the follow-through.  Allowing the toe
>> of the club to align itself naturally is the key to accuracy!

>> See Ben Hogan's toe-up to toe-up drill in his "5-Lessons" book.

>> During setup I ensure that my grip is loose and my
>> arms and elbows are completely tension-free.  NO DETAIL of the setup
>> is more important than tension.  In fact, tension will simply override
>> and negate any and all correct setup components because you can't move
>> correctly when you're tense.  Since I am lefty, my left elbow points
>> toward my belly-button, and both upper arms are IN FRONT OF my chest
>> rather than alongside it.  My left elbow is ready to softly fold and
>> stay as close in as possible, without unnatural cramping, of course.
>> Be able to softly waggle the clubhead.  Think soft, soft.

>> The secret to the golf swing is the turn.  The secret to achieving a
>> free and smooth full turn is a lack of tension--like Ernie Els.  When
>> you can setup without tension, backswing without tension, and swing
>> down and through without tension, you will be astounded that you will
>> hit the ball, even with a 2-iron, like a pro!  The club really will do
>> the work--without help from your hands.

>> Larry

>A few questions Larry.
>On the takeaway to horizontal you said that the arms should be fully
>extended.
>Then in the next sentence you said that the right upper arm should be
>touching my rib cage.
>These two sentences seem to be in conflict.

Not really.  The elbow stays against your rib cage until the club
leaves horizontal going  up.  Then it must come away in order to allow
your hands to elevate, of course.  You want that elbow to be pointing
down, however, so that it will come back to your rib cage when you
downswing-- prevent OTT.

Quote:
>Then you said that when the club is aligned with the target line and
>horizontal -'as most books advise', the toe should be pointing up. Well,
>I've always believed that when the club is horizontal that it will not be
>aligned with the target line. I've always wanted my clubhead outside my
>hands, and also the toe parallel to my spine angle.
>You think this could be my problem?

The club toe orientation is extremely important because it sets your
wrists-- point the toe up at horizontal and your upper hand wrist will
be flat, at least not cupped, which is a very poor position.  

It is a very good feeling to become aware of the club toe orientation
swinging through up to out to up as you do the miniature swing drill.
Feel the club toe swing through the ball at impact.  The head pro at
my club says that is the way he aims all iron shots.

Larry

- Show quoted text -

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Chrom » Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:56:43


Quote:


> >A few questions Larry.
> >On the takeaway to horizontal you said that the arms should be fully
> >extended.
> >Then in the next sentence you said that the right upper arm should be
> >touching my rib cage.
> >These two sentences seem to be in conflict.

> Not really.  The elbow stays against your rib cage until the club
> leaves horizontal going  up.  Then it must come away in order to allow
> your hands to elevate, of course.  You want that elbow to be pointing
> down, however, so that it will come back to your rib cage when you
> downswing-- prevent OTT.

At horizontal how can the right arm be extended *and* have the right upper
arm against the ribcage?

Quote:

> >Then you said that when the club is aligned with the target line and
> >horizontal -'as most books advise', the toe should be pointing up. Well,
> >I've always believed that when the club is horizontal that it will not be
> >aligned with the target line. I've always wanted my clubhead outside my
> >hands, and also the toe parallel to my spine angle.
> >You think this could be my problem?

> The club toe orientation is extremely important because it sets your
> wrists-- point the toe up at horizontal and your upper hand wrist will
> be flat, at least not cupped, which is a very poor position.

TGM and my teacher teach the toe orientation to be aligned parallel with the
spine angle at this position.
With the hands still inside the clubhead, and prior to the right hand being
folded back, the left wrist will not yet be flat.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> It is a very good feeling to become aware of the club toe orientation
> swinging through up to out to up as you do the miniature swing drill.
> Feel the club toe swing through the ball at impact.  The head pro at
> my club says that is the way he aims all iron shots.

> Larry

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Scott Newel » Thu, 27 Feb 2003 09:00:17


Quote:
> Not really.  The elbow stays against your rib cage until the club
> leaves horizontal going  up.  Then it must come away in order to allow
> your hands to elevate, of course.  You want that elbow to be pointing
> down, however, so that it will come back to your rib cage when you
> downswing-- prevent OTT.

What happened to Swing the Clubhead, CentriSwing, the grip, the weed cutter,
only working on your short game?  You mean Mr. Anti-Mechanical, WOOD, no
swing thoughts Larry is actually working on positions and mechanics?  Wow,
yet another major shift in philosophies.

Quote:
> The club toe orientation is extremely important because it sets your
> wrists-- point the toe up at horizontal and your upper hand wrist will
> be flat, at least not cupped, which is a very poor position.

What happened to Swing the Clubhead, CentriSwing, the grip, the weed cutter,
only working on your short game?  You mean Mr. Anti-Mechanical, WOOD, no
swing thoughts Larry is actually working on positions and mechanics?  Wow,
yet another major shift in philosophies.

Quote:
> It is a very good feeling to become aware of the club toe orientation
> swinging through up to out to up as you do the miniature swing drill.
> Feel the club toe swing through the ball at impact.  The head pro at
> my club says that is the way he aims all iron shots.

How would you aim an iron shot by feeling the toe swing through the ball at
impact?....and why would you not do this with woods?.....How/why does Mr.
Sowinski aim his woods differently than his irons?

Regardless, this might be one of the best golf posts I've seen Larry
contribute.  Direct, intelligent answers based in mechanical theory.  I
don't know if they're technically correct positions, but I believe in the
importance of feedback through toe (or face of the golf club) orientation.
Orientations of that toe are always up for debate!  :-)

--

Washington State University
"That shot is impossible!...Jack Nicholson
himself couldn't make it!"-- Homer Simpson

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Larry Whitake » Thu, 27 Feb 2003 09:05:28

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:36:03 -0500, "Perfect Impact"

Quote:







>> > >I've played for a long time with an incorrect forearm and clubface
>rotation
>> > >on the backswing. I get to a position at the top where the clubface
>points
>> > >to the sky. I'm basically playing with a shut clubface. The position
>feels
>> > >'strong', yet it is weak. This is beacuse if I do a proper downswing
>> > >rotation, I'll smother the ball. My only chance is to do a reverse-roll
>on
>> > >the downswing and play closed - to - open through impact. The net
>result is
>> > >weak. My other option is to try to get down with virtually no forearm
>> > >rotation and try and really clear my lower body to prevent the clubface
>from
>> > >closing any further. I believe that Duval plays this way.

>> > You need to do what most books advise, practice the takeaway from
>> > setup to horizontal over and over again--a full length mirror is very
>> > very helpful in this.   When you arrive at horizontal, your arms
>> > should be extended fully, and your shoulders are fully turned, you see
>> > the ball off your right [sic?] shoulder.  Your right upper arm should be
>> > touching your rib cage (meaning your turned your torso and not just
>> > your arms), and the club toe should be pointing up--and the club shaft
>> > aligned with the target line.

>> I agree with most of this, except for the toe pointing up.  The toe does
>> not point straight up at this point in a square-to-square swing.  Hogan
>> did it, but he was fanning the club open.  That was part of his "secret"
>> to eliminate hooks.  Most beginners, or even people who have been
>> playing a long time with a "natural fade" do not need to do this.

>> > If the toe is closed, simply fix
>> > it--make sure it points up.

>> No.  Pointing up is NOT square, it is open.

See
http://www.golftipsmag.com/content/pastissues/2000/may/takeaway.html

This is the best and most comprehensive explanation I have seen on the
takeaway--

The overall concept is that when we do NOTHING with our wrists and
forearms, simply turn our torso, the club head will be pointing up at
horizontal BECAUSE it was square to the ball at address.  You would
have to turn your wrists or forearms to change that.  The basic
concept of making golf learnable-- is to keep it simple, reduce any
need to do intricate manipulation of the club during the golf swing--
because that introduces inconsistency!  

I practice this move in a full-length mirror here in my office-- and
it definitely helps on the course or driving range.  

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>> > See Ben Hogan's toe-up to toe-up drill in his "5-Lessons" book.

>> Duh.  Look at the title of this thread.

>> See also Leadbetter "The Fundamentals of Hogan", Hank Haney,
>> Rick Smith, and countless others.

>Unfortunately in my estimation, the emphasis on this drill seems to me to be
>"off the mark" in that worry about where the toe is is NOT its essence: the
>release MOTION OF GOING FROM 90 DEGREES with the left FOREARM to straight
>with the attendant natural rollover OF the arms is its essence.

>Mid - flight positions need no analysis any more than knowing what your
>right earlobe is doing halfway down.  It takes care of itself.

>If I grip the club with the grip position (strength) that is needed for
>square impact based on MY BODY and its empirically proven amount of natural
>rotation back to the ball and then swing without doing things untoward
>during the swing, the "toe up or down or around or anything else" is
>IRRELEVANT because it takes care of itself.

>When I drive down the highway i do not steer my car by every single stripe
>in the road: I steer at a target in the distance than automatically puts my
>car in the right place on the way.

>The picayune attendance to a detail that "ain't broke" is a distraction,
>hence an infection, of something that probably runs just fine as long as you
>DO steer at the distant target with a bit of care.

>George Hibbard
>www.perfectimpact.com

Everyone should swing a heavy weed-cutter and see why Harvey Penick
had his golf teams do that for hours!  If the blade is square at
"address" or going through the weeds at the bottom of the swing, then
it will be wide open or the toe pointing up at horizontal going back
and pointing up at horizontal going forward after impact.  

NO manipulation with wrist or forearms is necessary, you simply turn
your torso and the blade automatically orients correctly.  THAT is the
secret of a connected golf swing--and a farmer's weed cutter movement.

Larry

- Show quoted text -

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Larry Whitake » Thu, 27 Feb 2003 09:14:52

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:51:50 -0500, "Perfect Impact"

Quote:

>TOE consciousness is the irrelevancy: the plane and release is the good
>essence of the drill.

>If the toe IS out of whack, it is indicative of maniuplation going on: one
>needs simplicity and naturalness.

>But like the earlobe, if you DO go from A (ball) to B (top) without doing
>funny stuff, the toe WILL BE WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE simply because it has to
>be SOMEwhere.

>Obsession with irrelevant details destroys learning.
>Yes, we disagree if you think obsessing on toe "UPness" is helpful.

>GH

Hi George,

I would have agreed with you-- until my head pro (this year's third
best teaching pro in the national tournament) said he is always aware
of the toe orientation.  Then I tried it myself.  It is not something
we do differently, we just become aware of the toe swinging through
impact from open to square to closed.  It does help you aim very
precisely, especially for long irons.  He says being aware of the toe
orientation is the "secret" of pro-level iron accuracy.  

BTW, he teaches that the putter head should do the same thing-- it
opens and closes around our body as the SHAFT goes straight back and
forth along the target line.  

I suggest everyone try that before putting it down-- it does work and
it is a very interesting feeling.

Larry

Quote:











>> > > > >I've played for a long time with an incorrect forearm and clubface
>> >  rotation
>> > > > >on the backswing. I get to a position at the top where the clubface
>> >  points
>> > > > >to the sky. I'm basically playing with a shut clubface. The
>position
>> >  feels
>> > > > >'strong', yet it is weak. This is beacuse if I do a proper
>downswing
>> > > > >rotation, I'll smother the ball. My only chance is to do a
>reverse-roll
>> >  on
>> > > > >the downswing and play closed - to - open through impact. The net
>> >  result is
>> > > > >weak. My other option is to try to get down with virtually no
>forearm
>> > > > >rotation and try and really clear my lower body to prevent the
>clubface
>> >  from
>> > > > >closing any further. I believe that Duval plays this way.

>> > > > You need to do what most books advise, practice the takeaway from
>> > > > setup to horizontal over and over again--a full length mirror is
>very
>> > > > very helpful in this.   When you arrive at horizontal, your arms
>> > > > should be extended fully, and your shoulders are fully turned, you
>see
>> > > > the ball off your right [sic?] shoulder.  Your right upper arm
>should be
>> > > > touching your rib cage (meaning your turned your torso and not just
>> > > > your arms), and the club toe should be pointing up--and the club
>shaft
>> > > > aligned with the target line.

>> > > I agree with most of this, except for the toe pointing up.  The toe
>does
>> > > not point straight up at this point in a square-to-square swing.
>Hogan
>> > > did it, but he was fanning the club open.  That was part of his
>"secret"
>> > > to eliminate hooks.  Most beginners, or even people who have been
>> > > playing a long time with a "natural fade" do not need to do this.

>> > > > If the toe is closed, simply fix
>> > > > it--make sure it points up.

>> > > No.  Pointing up is NOT square, it is open.

>> > > > See Ben Hogan's toe-up to toe-up drill in his "5-Lessons" book.

>> > > Duh.  Look at the title of this thread.

>> > > See also Leadbetter "The Fundamentals of Hogan", Hank Haney,
>> > > Rick Smith, and countless others.

>> > Unfortunately in my estimation, the emphasis on this drill seems to me
>to be
>> > "off the mark" in that worry about where the toe is is NOT its essence:
>the
>> > release MOTION OF GOING FROM 90 DEGREES with the left FOREARM to
>straight
>> > with the attendant natural rollover OF the arms is its essence.

>> > Mid - flight positions need no analysis any more than knowing what your
>> > right earlobe is doing halfway down.  It takes care of itself.

>> > If I grip the club with the grip position (strength) that is needed for
>> > square impact based on MY BODY and its empirically proven amount of
>natural
>> > rotation back to the ball and then swing without doing things untoward
>> > during the swing, the "toe up or down or around or anything else" is
>> > IRRELEVANT because it takes care of itself.

>> I disagree.  There are many ways to swing, and not all of them
>> equal.  Some ways are better than others.  If you leave it to chance,
>> chances are you end up with one of those "other" ways.

>> I agree that, when you are PLAYING golf, you should not try to
>> swing by going, step by step, through a sequence of positions.
>> Not even Jim McLean advocates doing that (contrary to your lies
>> about him).  However, the positions that you go through DURING
>> the swing ARE important, and in particular, what you do early
>> in the swing greatly affects what happens later.

>> Otherwise, why do video analysis?  You must believe in video
>> analysis, don't you George?  You offer it on your web site.

>> You say the release is the sole focus of this drill.  I agree that
>> it is ONE of the points of the drill, but would argue that
>> it is not the sole focus or benefit of this drill, since
>> not much wrist*** is involved  The L to L
>> drill is much better for teaching release.

>> Swing plane is another, possibly more important point of
>> this drill.  If you execute this drill correctly, you are
>> swinging on-plane.  One-piece takeaway, turn your shoulders,
>> left arm straight (but right arm bends, unlike Larry's advice)
>> and when you get to the point where the shaft is horizontal,
>> if the shaft is not parallel to the target line you are off-plane.

>> You can also be off-plane even if the club is horizontal and
>> parallel, but that is less likely, and can be seen easily on video
>> or working in front of a mirror with tape marking the swing plane.
>> If you repeatedly practice this drill (correctly), you go a long way
>> towards grooving an on-plane swing.

>> The loose cannon, though, is the clubface.  If you
>> repeatedly practice this drill with the toe pointing up, you are
>> practicing fanning open the clubface, and will build that into
>> your swing.  Chances are, at the top, you'll end up with the
>> toe pointing straight down.  For anyone who slices or fades the
>> ball, I argue that's not good.

>> On the other hand, if you practice this same drill with the
>> clubface tilted over "looking back" more towards the ball,
>> you have a better chance of ending up at the top in the
>> "square" position with the leading edge of the clubface
>> parallel to the swing plane.

>> Again, this is just a drill, and not something you conciously
>> think about when you are making golf swings on the course.  But
>> if you make thousands of these drill swings in practice, you'll
>> groove this feel and motion into your real swing, and be able
>> to take it to the course without thinking about it.  So you are much
>> better off doing it correctly, rather than in some haphazard "oh,
>> it will just take care of itself" way.  Practice makes permanent,
>> not perfect.  Only perfect practice makes perfect.

>> Another benefit is that the wrist*** works a bit differently
>> (better) when you keep the clubface square vs when you fan the
>> clubface open, but that is another subject.

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Larry Whitake » Thu, 27 Feb 2003 09:41:40



Quote:





>> >A few questions Larry.
>> >On the takeaway to horizontal you said that the arms should be fully
>> >extended.
>> >Then in the next sentence you said that the right upper arm should be
>> >touching my rib cage.
>> >These two sentences seem to be in conflict.

>> Not really.  The elbow stays against your rib cage until the club
>> leaves horizontal going  up.  Then it must come away in order to allow
>> your hands to elevate, of course.  You want that elbow to be pointing
>> down, however, so that it will come back to your rib cage when you
>> downswing-- prevent OTT.

>At horizontal how can the right arm be extended *and* have the right upper
>arm against the ribcage?

>> >Then you said that when the club is aligned with the target line and
>> >horizontal -'as most books advise', the toe should be pointing up. Well,
>> >I've always believed that when the club is horizontal that it will not be
>> >aligned with the target line. I've always wanted my clubhead outside my
>> >hands, and also the toe parallel to my spine angle.
>> >You think this could be my problem?

>> The club toe orientation is extremely important because it sets your
>> wrists-- point the toe up at horizontal and your upper hand wrist will
>> be flat, at least not cupped, which is a very poor position.

>TGM and my teacher teach the toe orientation to be aligned parallel with the
>spine angle at this position.
>With the hands still inside the clubhead, and prior to the right hand being
>folded back, the left wrist will not yet be flat.

>> It is a very good feeling to become aware of the club toe orientation
>> swinging through up to out to up as you do the miniature swing drill.
>> Feel the club toe swing through the ball at impact.  The head pro at
>> my club says that is the way he aims all iron shots.

>> Larry

Hi Chrome,

You are making this entire too complex.  It is not.  You should feel
like a washing machine agitator-- turning the entire club by turning
your torso--with your wrists and forearms "frozen," and your elbows
tightly against your rib cage.  The club handle remains pointing at
your belly button throughout the lower portions of the swing.  This is
exactly what the popular "swing jacket" makes you do.  

There is no manipulation of the club in order to turn the clubhead.

When the club is horizontal, if you opened your hands, they should be
ready to applaud-- palm facing palm.  Same at address, same at the
top, same at horizontal after impact.  THAT is the only way a human
can direct a golf ball during a split second move like the golf swing.
Keep it natural and simple.  Try moving your two hands held slightly
apart from directly in front of you to behind you to address and then
in front of you, keeping them oriented exactly the same.  THAT is the
golf swing movement.  And that is the role of the wrists--NOTHING!

The hands and wrists do nothing in the golf swing, they "have no role"
other than to hang on.  

Larry

Larry

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Chrom » Thu, 27 Feb 2003 09:57:19


Quote:


> Hi Chrome,

> You are making this entire too complex.  It is not.  You should feel
> like a washing machine agitator-- turning the entire club by turning
> your torso--with your wrists and forearms "frozen," and your elbows
> tightly against your rib cage.  The club handle remains pointing at
> your belly button throughout the lower portions of the swing.  This is
> exactly what the popular "swing jacket" makes you do.

> There is no manipulation of the club in order to turn the clubhead.

> When the club is horizontal, if you opened your hands, they should be
> ready to applaud-- palm facing palm.  Same at address, same at the
> top, same at horizontal after impact.  THAT is the only way a human
> can direct a golf ball during a split second move like the golf swing.
> Keep it natural and simple.  Try moving your two hands held slightly
> apart from directly in front of you to behind you to address and then
> in front of you, keeping them oriented exactly the same.  THAT is the
> golf swing movement.  And that is the role of the wrists--NOTHING!

> The hands and wrists do nothing in the golf swing, they "have no role"
> other than to hang on.

> Larry

> Larry

Do you teach?
Would you give me a lesson?
You're probably scratch, huh?
 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Colin Wilso » Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:10:58

Quote:

> When the club is horizontal, if you opened your hands, they should be
> ready to applaud-- palm facing palm.  Same at address, same at the
> top, same at horizontal after impact.

This is one of those "tips" that's basically meaningless. I mean, if the
palms of each hand are facing each other at address, they can hardly
take up any other position throughout the swing, unless they *shift on
the grip*

... can they?!!

--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Larry Whitake » Fri, 28 Feb 2003 02:07:00

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 00:41:40 GMT, Larry Whitaker

Quote:







>>> >A few questions Larry.
>>> >On the takeaway to horizontal you said that the arms should be fully
>>> >extended.
>>> >Then in the next sentence you said that the right upper arm should be
>>> >touching my rib cage.
>>> >These two sentences seem to be in conflict.

>>> Not really.  The elbow stays against your rib cage until the club
>>> leaves horizontal going  up.  Then it must come away in order to allow
>>> your hands to elevate, of course.  You want that elbow to be pointing
>>> down, however, so that it will come back to your rib cage when you
>>> downswing-- prevent OTT.

>>At horizontal how can the right arm be extended *and* have the right upper
>>arm against the ribcage?

That's what you learn from the drill-- to turn your torso instead of
just your arms.  If you keep both upper arms tightly against your rib
cage while your torso turns, you will arrive at the right horizontal
position.  

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>>> >Then you said that when the club is aligned with the target line and
>>> >horizontal -'as most books advise', the toe should be pointing up. Well,
>>> >I've always believed that when the club is horizontal that it will not be
>>> >aligned with the target line. I've always wanted my clubhead outside my
>>> >hands, and also the toe parallel to my spine angle.
>>> >You think this could be my problem?

>>> The club toe orientation is extremely important because it sets your
>>> wrists-- point the toe up at horizontal and your upper hand wrist will
>>> be flat, at least not cupped, which is a very poor position.

>>TGM and my teacher teach the toe orientation to be aligned parallel with the
>>spine angle at this position.
>>With the hands still inside the clubhead, and prior to the right hand being
>>folded back, the left wrist will not yet be flat.

>>> It is a very good feeling to become aware of the club toe orientation
>>> swinging through up to out to up as you do the miniature swing drill.
>>> Feel the club toe swing through the ball at impact.  The head pro at
>>> my club says that is the way he aims all iron shots.

>>> Larry

>Hi Chrome,

>You are making this entire too complex.  It is not.  You should feel
>like a washing machine agitator-- turning the entire club by turning
>your torso--with your wrists and forearms "frozen," and your elbows
>tightly against your rib cage.  The club handle remains pointing at
>your belly button throughout the lower portions of the swing.  This is
>exactly what the popular "swing jacket" makes you do.  

>There is no manipulation of the club in order to turn the clubhead.

>When the club is horizontal, if you opened your hands, they should be
>ready to applaud-- palm facing palm.  Same at address, same at the
>top, same at horizontal after impact.  THAT is the only way a human
>can direct a golf ball during a split second move like the golf swing.
>Keep it natural and simple.  Try moving your two hands held slightly
>apart from directly in front of you to behind you to address and then
>in front of you, keeping them oriented exactly the same.  THAT is the
>golf swing movement.  And that is the role of the wrists--NOTHING!

>The hands and wrists do nothing in the golf swing, they "have no role"
>other than to hang on.  

>Larry

>Larry