Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by bighorn_bi » Wed, 19 Feb 2003 03:30:51


Since our resident weed-whacker has been pushing this
drill, I thought I'd mention that if you do it exactly
like Hogan said, with the toe pointing straight up
when the shaft is horizontal, you are actually fanning
the clubface open.

The face is square if it is tilted so that the clubface
is looking back more towards the ball. There is some rotation,
but not that much.

Hogan built this fanning open into his swing as an anti-hook
measure.  You can also see it if you follow the instructions
he gives for how to waggle.  Useful compensations for someone
guarding against a hook, but detrimental for
someone battling a slice.

The important position is where the toe points
at the top of the backswing with the clubshaft horizontal
again.  If the toe points down, the clubface has been fanned
completely open.  If the toe points at an angle, so that the
leading edge of the clubface is parallel to the swing plane,
the clubface is considered "square".  If the clubface is
looking straight up it is closed.

This is easy to check on video or working in front of a
full-length mirror.

Most people will find it easier to get to the square position
at the top if they keep the clubface square, or even closed earlier
in the backswing (i.e. at the "toe up" position). You may
also find the wrist*** works a little differently.

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Robert Davi » Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:19:04

While I don't disagree with any of your detailed points ... I wouldn't
write off the drill just because of the "toe-up" instruction. I've
found the drill to be very useful as far as ingraining a good, smooth
swinging motion, and also for keeping the elbows close to the body and
maintaining a good connection with the arms/body.

I do agree that the toe should probably be slightly closed during the
early parts of the backswing (especially if your fighting a slice),
and also that a lot of the instruction in the Hogan book is geared
towards helping with a hook.

Rob

Quote:

> Since our resident weed-whacker has been pushing this
> drill, I thought I'd mention that if you do it exactly
> like Hogan said, with the toe pointing straight up
> when the shaft is horizontal, you are actually fanning
> the clubface open.

> The face is square if it is tilted so that the clubface
> is looking back more towards the ball. There is some rotation,
> but not that much.

> Hogan built this fanning open into his swing as an anti-hook
> measure.  You can also see it if you follow the instructions
> he gives for how to waggle.  Useful compensations for someone
> guarding against a hook, but detrimental for
> someone battling a slice.

> The important position is where the toe points
> at the top of the backswing with the clubshaft horizontal
> again.  If the toe points down, the clubface has been fanned
> completely open.  If the toe points at an angle, so that the
> leading edge of the clubface is parallel to the swing plane,
> the clubface is considered "square".  If the clubface is
> looking straight up it is closed.

> This is easy to check on video or working in front of a
> full-length mirror.

> Most people will find it easier to get to the square position
> at the top if they keep the clubface square, or even closed earlier
> in the backswing (i.e. at the "toe up" position). You may
> also find the wrist*** works a little differently.


 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Dene » Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:21:05


Quote:
> Since our resident weed-whacker has been pushing this
> drill, I thought I'd mention that if you do it exactly
> like Hogan said, with the toe pointing straight up
> when the shaft is horizontal, you are actually fanning
> the clubface open.

> The face is square if it is tilted so that the clubface
> is looking back more towards the ball. There is some rotation,
> but not that much.

> Hogan built this fanning open into his swing as an anti-hook
> measure.  You can also see it if you follow the instructions
> he gives for how to waggle.  Useful compensations for someone
> guarding against a hook, but detrimental for
> someone battling a slice.

> The important position is where the toe points
> at the top of the backswing with the clubshaft horizontal
> again.  If the toe points down, the clubface has been fanned
> completely open.  If the toe points at an angle, so that the
> leading edge of the clubface is parallel to the swing plane,
> the clubface is considered "square".  If the clubface is
> looking straight up it is closed.

> This is easy to check on video or working in front of a
> full-length mirror.

> Most people will find it easier to get to the square position
> at the top if they keep the clubface square, or even closed earlier
> in the backswing (i.e. at the "toe up" position). You may
> also find the wrist*** works a little differently.

My instructor has me do a modified version of Hogan's drill.  Basically, he
has me take the club (momentus) waist high with the ***pointed at the
ball, then swing, stopping the follow through waist high.  Really helps me
get the right feel for correct impact.  Excellent drill for subduing my
"natural" casting move.

-Greg

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by David Lavill » Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:02:29



Quote:
>Since our resident weed-whacker has been pushing this
>drill, I thought I'd mention that if you do it exactly
>like Hogan said, with the toe pointing straight up
>when the shaft is horizontal, you are actually fanning
>the clubface open.

Ditto.

Quote:
>The face is square if it is tilted so that the clubface
>is looking back more towards the ball. There is some rotation,
>but not that much.

Ditto.

Quote:
>Hogan built this fanning open into his swing as an anti-hook
>measure.  You can also see it if you follow the instructions
>he gives for how to waggle.  Useful compensations for someone
>guarding against a hook, but detrimental for
>someone battling a slice.

 Ditto.

Quote:
>The important position is where the toe points
>at the top of the backswing with the clubshaft horizontal
>again.  If the toe points down, the clubface has been fanned
>completely open.  If the toe points at an angle, so that the
>leading edge of the clubface is parallel to the swing plane,
>the clubface is considered "square".  If the clubface is
>looking straight up it is closed.

I believe the opposite, when the toe points down the clubface is
closed, when the clubface is looking  up it is open.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
Contributor Of Consistent & Spam Free Golf Advice

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Davi » Thu, 20 Feb 2003 00:30:57

Are you serious?  If you really believe what you say below, then
you've got some serious issues to deal with before you tell anyone
about how to hit a golf ball.

David.

Quote:

> >The important position is where the toe points
> >at the top of the backswing with the clubshaft horizontal
> >again.  If the toe points down, the clubface has been fanned
> >completely open.  If the toe points at an angle, so that the
> >leading edge of the clubface is parallel to the swing plane,
> >the clubface is considered "square".  If the clubface is
> >looking straight up it is closed.

> I believe the opposite, when the toe points down the clubface is
> closed, when the clubface is looking  up it is open.

> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
> Contributor Of Consistent & Spam Free Golf Advice

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by bighorn_bi » Thu, 20 Feb 2003 02:35:31

Quote:



> >Since our resident weed-whacker has been pushing this
> >drill, I thought I'd mention that if you do it exactly
> >like Hogan said, with the toe pointing straight up
> >when the shaft is horizontal, you are actually fanning
> >the clubface open.

> Ditto.

> >The face is square if it is tilted so that the clubface
> >is looking back more towards the ball. There is some rotation,
> >but not that much.

> Ditto.

> >Hogan built this fanning open into his swing as an anti-hook
> >measure.  You can also see it if you follow the instructions
> >he gives for how to waggle.  Useful compensations for someone
> >guarding against a hook, but detrimental for
> >someone battling a slice.

>  Ditto.

> >The important position is where the toe points
> >at the top of the backswing with the clubshaft horizontal
> >again.  If the toe points down, the clubface has been fanned
> >completely open.  If the toe points at an angle, so that the
> >leading edge of the clubface is parallel to the swing plane,
> >the clubface is considered "square".  If the clubface is
> >looking straight up it is closed.

> I believe the opposite, when the toe points down the clubface is
> closed, when the clubface is looking  up it is open.

Not sure what the confusion is, or if you are trying to make
a subtle point that escapes me, but I can point to several
books that define it the way I have.  I'll provide references
when I get the chance.  Just off the top of my head, I think
Hebron, Leadbetter, and Cochran & Stobbs all cover this.

But think of it this way.  If you rotate the club shaft clockwise
(to the right) as you take the club back, you are fanning
the clubface open, correct?  If you continue to rotate the shaft
in that direction, when you reach the top, the toe will be***
down.  Conversely, if you rotate the shaft the other direction,
you will be closing the clubface, and at the top the clubface
will be pointing at the sky (toe horizontal).  Try it.

I take it the Golfing Machine doesn't use these terms?

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by bighorn_bi » Thu, 20 Feb 2003 02:49:14

The drill is very good as long as you don't actually point the toe
straight up (unless, of course, you are fighting a hook).  My pro
wants me to actually have it a little closed at the horizontal
position, probably as an overcompensation for all those years
I practiced this drill with the toe pointing up.
Quote:

> While I don't disagree with any of your detailed points ... I wouldn't
> write off the drill just because of the "toe-up" instruction. I've
> found the drill to be very useful as far as ingraining a good, smooth
> swinging motion, and also for keeping the elbows close to the body and
> maintaining a good connection with the arms/body.

> I do agree that the toe should probably be slightly closed during the
> early parts of the backswing (especially if your fighting a slice),
> and also that a lot of the instruction in the Hogan book is geared
> towards helping with a hook.

> Rob


> > Since our resident weed-whacker has been pushing this
> > drill, I thought I'd mention that if you do it exactly
> > like Hogan said, with the toe pointing straight up
> > when the shaft is horizontal, you are actually fanning
> > the clubface open.

> > The face is square if it is tilted so that the clubface
> > is looking back more towards the ball. There is some rotation,
> > but not that much.

> > Hogan built this fanning open into his swing as an anti-hook
> > measure.  You can also see it if you follow the instructions
> > he gives for how to waggle.  Useful compensations for someone
> > guarding against a hook, but detrimental for
> > someone battling a slice.

> > The important position is where the toe points
> > at the top of the backswing with the clubshaft horizontal
> > again.  If the toe points down, the clubface has been fanned
> > completely open.  If the toe points at an angle, so that the
> > leading edge of the clubface is parallel to the swing plane,
> > the clubface is considered "square".  If the clubface is
> > looking straight up it is closed.

> > This is easy to check on video or working in front of a
> > full-length mirror.

> > Most people will find it easier to get to the square position
> > at the top if they keep the clubface square, or even closed earlier
> > in the backswing (i.e. at the "toe up" position). You may
> > also find the wrist*** works a little differently.

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by bighorn_bi » Thu, 20 Feb 2003 03:08:10

Quote:



> > Since our resident weed-whacker has been pushing this
> > drill, I thought I'd mention that if you do it exactly
> > like Hogan said, with the toe pointing straight up
> > when the shaft is horizontal, you are actually fanning
> > the clubface open.

> > The face is square if it is tilted so that the clubface
> > is looking back more towards the ball. There is some rotation,
> > but not that much.

> > Hogan built this fanning open into his swing as an anti-hook
> > measure.  You can also see it if you follow the instructions
> > he gives for how to waggle.  Useful compensations for someone
> > guarding against a hook, but detrimental for
> > someone battling a slice.

> > The important position is where the toe points
> > at the top of the backswing with the clubshaft horizontal
> > again.  If the toe points down, the clubface has been fanned
> > completely open.  If the toe points at an angle, so that the
> > leading edge of the clubface is parallel to the swing plane,
> > the clubface is considered "square".  If the clubface is
> > looking straight up it is closed.

> > This is easy to check on video or working in front of a
> > full-length mirror.

> > Most people will find it easier to get to the square position
> > at the top if they keep the clubface square, or even closed earlier
> > in the backswing (i.e. at the "toe up" position). You may
> > also find the wrist*** works a little differently.

> My instructor has me do a modified version of Hogan's drill.  Basically, he
> has me take the club (momentus) waist high with the ***pointed at the
> ball, then swing, stopping the follow through waist high.  Really helps me
> get the right feel for correct impact.  Excellent drill for subduing my
> "natural" casting move.

> -Greg

This is a great drill, too.  To get to that position, though, you
have to pass through the horizontal position, and how the clubface
is oriented at that point largely determines whether you are
keeping the clubface square or fanning it open.  If you are a slicer
by nature, if you fan the clubface open on the backswing, you may have
a difficult time closing the clubface on the downswing.

I'm not saying these drills are bad.  They are very good, provided
they are done without fanning open the clubface (unless you are
a ***, or you can reliably roll your wrists on the downswing).

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by bighorn_bi » Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:19:26

Quote:




> > >Since our resident weed-whacker has been pushing this
> > >drill, I thought I'd mention that if you do it exactly
> > >like Hogan said, with the toe pointing straight up
> > >when the shaft is horizontal, you are actually fanning
> > >the clubface open.

> > Ditto.

> > >The face is square if it is tilted so that the clubface
> > >is looking back more towards the ball. There is some rotation,
> > >but not that much.

> > Ditto.

> > >Hogan built this fanning open into his swing as an anti-hook
> > >measure.  You can also see it if you follow the instructions
> > >he gives for how to waggle.  Useful compensations for someone
> > >guarding against a hook, but detrimental for
> > >someone battling a slice.

> >  Ditto.

> > >The important position is where the toe points
> > >at the top of the backswing with the clubshaft horizontal
> > >again.  If the toe points down, the clubface has been fanned
> > >completely open.  If the toe points at an angle, so that the
> > >leading edge of the clubface is parallel to the swing plane,
> > >the clubface is considered "square".  If the clubface is
> > >looking straight up it is closed.

> > I believe the opposite, when the toe points down the clubface is
> > closed, when the clubface is looking  up it is open.

> Not sure what the confusion is, or if you are trying to make
> a subtle point that escapes me, but I can point to several
> books that define it the way I have.  I'll provide references
> when I get the chance.  Just off the top of my head, I think
> Hebron, Leadbetter, and Cochran & Stobbs all cover this.

Here are specific references:

Hebron "See and Feel The Inside Move the Outside" pg 105, 106
Leadbetter "The Fundamentals of Hogan" pg 56
Cochran & Stobbs "Search for the Perfect Swing" pg 95, 96

And I know I've seen it in several other books, too (McLean? Haney?)
that I don't have handy at the moment.

I'm interested in hearing your reasons for disagreeing, though.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> But think of it this way.  If you rotate the club shaft clockwise
> (to the right) as you take the club back, you are fanning
> the clubface open, correct?  If you continue to rotate the shaft
> in that direction, when you reach the top, the toe will be***
> down.  Conversely, if you rotate the shaft the other direction,
> you will be closing the clubface, and at the top the clubface
> will be pointing at the sky (toe horizontal).  Try it.

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by David Lavill » Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:21:05


Quote:
>Are you serious?  If you really believe what you say below, then
>you've got some serious issues to deal with before you tell anyone
>about how to hit a golf ball.

I am serious and I can prove it.  Explain to me how the toe pointing
at the ground is an open clubface.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
Contributor Of Consistent & Spam Free Golf Advice

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by David Lavill » Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:21:08



Quote:
>Not sure what the confusion is, or if you are trying to make
>a subtle point that escapes me, but I can point to several
>books that define it the way I have.  I'll provide references
>when I get the chance.  Just off the top of my head, I think
>Hebron, Leadbetter, and Cochran & Stobbs all cover this.

And I believe they're wrong about this.  They all tell you the toe
pointing at the ground is open but none explain why.

Quote:
>But think of it this way.  If you rotate the club shaft clockwise
>(to the right) as you take the club back, you are fanning
>the clubface open, correct?  

Correct.

Quote:
>If you continue to rotate the shaft
>in that direction, when you reach the top, the toe will be***
>down.  

It can depending on what compensating move you make.

Quote:
>Conversely, if you rotate the shaft the other direction,
>you will be closing the clubface, and at the top the clubface
>will be pointing at the sky (toe horizontal).  Try it.

I did but I don't see how it proves the clubface is closed.  If you
take a strong left hand grip it forces the left wrist to bend at the
top causing the toe to point down.  For argument sake I can say this
proves the club is closed because a strong left hand grip closes the
clubface.

Quote:
>I take it the Golfing Machine doesn't use these terms?

It doesn't matter what terms you use the geometry is the same.  Using
a correct grip if you make the toe of the club point down it bends or
cups the left wrist and flattens the right.  If I bend or cup my left
wrist and flatten my right at address or impact it moves the clubhead
in front of my hands and closes the clubface.  So how can it be open
in one position but closed in two others?

Also, if my left wrist is cupped at the top causing the toe to point
down it has to do a reverse roll motion to become flat in the down
swing for impact.  You reverse roll closed clubfaces to square them,
not open clubfaces.  Reverse wrist rolls open clubfaces and I'm sure
you know reverse rolls cause slices.  It's this reverse roll, not the
position of the clubface at the top that causes slices.  This is why I
believe instructors come to the faulty conclusion that the toe
pointing at the ground is an open clubface.  It's not the position,
it's the compensating move to over come it that misleads them.

I'm waiting for new batteries for my digital camera to come in and
I'll post some pictures showing what I explained above.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
Contributor Of Consistent & Spam Free Golf Advice

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Chrom » Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:58:52


Quote:


>> I did but I don't see how it proves the clubface is closed.  If you
> take a strong left hand grip it forces the left wrist to bend at the
> top causing the toe to point down.  For argument sake I can say this
> proves the club is closed because a strong left hand grip closes the
> clubface.

> >I take it the Golfing Machine doesn't use these terms?

> It doesn't matter what terms you use the geometry is the same.  Using
> a correct grip if you make the toe of the club point down it bends or
> cups the left wrist and flattens the right.  If I bend or cup my left
> wrist and flatten my right at address or impact it moves the clubhead
> in front of my hands and closes the clubface.  So how can it be open
> in one position but closed in two others?

> Also, if my left wrist is cupped at the top causing the toe to point
> down it has to do a reverse roll motion to become flat in the down
> swing for impact.  You reverse roll closed clubfaces to square them,
> not open clubfaces.  Reverse wrist rolls open clubfaces and I'm sure
> you know reverse rolls cause slices.  It's this reverse roll, not the
> position of the clubface at the top that causes slices.  This is why I
> believe instructors come to the faulty conclusion that the toe
> pointing at the ground is an open clubface.  It's not the position,
> it's the compensating move to over come it that misleads them.

> I'm waiting for new batteries for my digital camera to come in and
> I'll post some pictures showing what I explained above.

> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
> Contributor Of Consistent & Spam Free Golf Advice

I've played for a long time with an incorrect forearm and clubface rotation
on the backswing. I get to a position at the top where the clubface points
to the sky. I'm basically playing with a shut clubface. The position feels
'strong', yet it is weak. This is beacuse if I do a proper downswing
rotation, I'll smother the ball. My only chance is to do a reverse-roll on
the downswing and play closed - to - open through impact. The net result is
weak. My other option is to try to get down with virtually no forearm
rotation and try and really clear my lower body to prevent the clubface from
closing any further. I believe that Duval plays this way.
 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Larry Whitake » Sat, 22 Feb 2003 04:44:07



Quote:

>I've played for a long time with an incorrect forearm and clubface rotation
>on the backswing. I get to a position at the top where the clubface points
>to the sky. I'm basically playing with a shut clubface. The position feels
>'strong', yet it is weak. This is beacuse if I do a proper downswing
>rotation, I'll smother the ball. My only chance is to do a reverse-roll on
>the downswing and play closed - to - open through impact. The net result is
>weak. My other option is to try to get down with virtually no forearm
>rotation and try and really clear my lower body to prevent the clubface from
>closing any further. I believe that Duval plays this way.

You need to do what most books advise, practice the takeaway from
setup to horizontal over and over again--a full length mirror is very
very helpful in this.   When you arrive at horizontal, your arms
should be extended fully, and your shoulders are fully turned, you see
the ball off your right shoulder.  Your right upper arm should be
touching your rib cage (meaning your turned your torso and not just
your arms), and the club toe should be pointing up--and the club shaft
aligned with the target line.  If the toe is closed, simply fix
it--make sure it points up.  That sets your wrists properly and it
makes sure your grip is not far from neutral.  The horizontal position
dictates your top position and of course it sets your swing plane.
Just get it to horizontal correctly and you have a good chance of
making a good swing.  

A fundamentally sound grip is based on your palms always facing one
another.  If you opened your hands and dropped the club, your hands
should be ready to applaud.  At the backswing horizontal position,
they are still there.  At the forward swing horizontal position, they
are still there, ready to clap together.  

As you practice this vitally important first move of the takeaway, to
horizontal, make sure that you start with both upper arms tightly
glued (but not tense) against your sides.  As you turn like that, your
torso turns the club AROUND your body like a washing machine agitator.
The golf swing is not up and down nor is it back and forth movement.
It is AROUND, just like a baseball swing.  

As you envision and practice your swing AROUND your body like a
baseball swing, remember that the club toe opens fully when the club
is horizontal going back, squares up through the ball position, and
then opens at horizontal during the follow-through.  Allowing the toe
of the club to align itself naturally is the key to accuracy!  

See Ben Hogan's toe-up to toe-up drill in his "5-Lessons" book.  

During setup I ensure that my grip is loose and my
arms and elbows are completely tension-free.  NO DETAIL of the setup
is more important than tension.  In fact, tension will simply override
and negate any and all correct setup components because you can't move
correctly when you're tense.  Since I am lefty, my left elbow points
toward my belly-button, and both upper arms are IN FRONT OF my chest
rather than alongside it.  My left elbow is ready to softly fold and
stay as close in as possible, without unnatural cramping, of course.
Be able to softly waggle the clubhead.  Think soft, soft.  

The secret to the golf swing is the turn.  The secret to achieving a
free and smooth full turn is a lack of tension--like Ernie Els.  When
you can setup without tension, backswing without tension, and swing
down and through without tension, you will be astounded that you will
hit the ball, even with a 2-iron, like a pro!  The club really will do
the work--without help from your hands.  

Larry

 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Chrom » Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:27:20


Quote:


> >I've played for a long time with an incorrect forearm and clubface
rotation
> >on the backswing. I get to a position at the top where the clubface
points
> >to the sky. I'm basically playing with a shut clubface. The position
feels
> >'strong', yet it is weak. This is beacuse if I do a proper downswing
> >rotation, I'll smother the ball. My only chance is to do a reverse-roll
on
> >the downswing and play closed - to - open through impact. The net result
is
> >weak. My other option is to try to get down with virtually no forearm
> >rotation and try and really clear my lower body to prevent the clubface
from
> >closing any further. I believe that Duval plays this way.

> You need to do what most books advise, practice the takeaway from
> setup to horizontal over and over again--a full length mirror is very
> very helpful in this.   When you arrive at horizontal, your arms
> should be extended fully, and your shoulders are fully turned, you see
> the ball off your right shoulder.  Your right upper arm should be
> touching your rib cage (meaning your turned your torso and not just
> your arms), and the club toe should be pointing up--and the club shaft
> aligned with the target line.  If the toe is closed, simply fix
> it--make sure it points up.  That sets your wrists properly and it
> makes sure your grip is not far from neutral.  The horizontal position
> dictates your top position and of course it sets your swing plane.
> Just get it to horizontal correctly and you have a good chance of
> making a good swing.

> A fundamentally sound grip is based on your palms always facing one
> another.  If you opened your hands and dropped the club, your hands
> should be ready to applaud.  At the backswing horizontal position,
> they are still there.  At the forward swing horizontal position, they
> are still there, ready to clap together.

> As you practice this vitally important first move of the takeaway, to
> horizontal, make sure that you start with both upper arms tightly
> glued (but not tense) against your sides.  As you turn like that, your
> torso turns the club AROUND your body like a washing machine agitator.
> The golf swing is not up and down nor is it back and forth movement.
> It is AROUND, just like a baseball swing.

> As you envision and practice your swing AROUND your body like a
> baseball swing, remember that the club toe opens fully when the club
> is horizontal going back, squares up through the ball position, and
> then opens at horizontal during the follow-through.  Allowing the toe
> of the club to align itself naturally is the key to accuracy!

> See Ben Hogan's toe-up to toe-up drill in his "5-Lessons" book.

> During setup I ensure that my grip is loose and my
> arms and elbows are completely tension-free.  NO DETAIL of the setup
> is more important than tension.  In fact, tension will simply override
> and negate any and all correct setup components because you can't move
> correctly when you're tense.  Since I am lefty, my left elbow points
> toward my belly-button, and both upper arms are IN FRONT OF my chest
> rather than alongside it.  My left elbow is ready to softly fold and
> stay as close in as possible, without unnatural cramping, of course.
> Be able to softly waggle the clubhead.  Think soft, soft.

> The secret to the golf swing is the turn.  The secret to achieving a
> free and smooth full turn is a lack of tension--like Ernie Els.  When
> you can setup without tension, backswing without tension, and swing
> down and through without tension, you will be astounded that you will
> hit the ball, even with a 2-iron, like a pro!  The club really will do
> the work--without help from your hands.

> Larry

A few questions Larry.
On the takeaway to horizontal you said that the arms should be fully
extended.
Then in the next sentence you said that the right upper arm should be
touching my rib cage.
These two sentences seem to be in conflict.
Then you said that when the club is aligned with the target line and
horizontal -'as most books advise', the toe should be pointing up. Well,
I've always believed that when the club is horizontal that it will not be
aligned with the target line. I've always wanted my clubhead outside my
hands, and also the toe parallel to my spine angle.
You think this could be my problem?
 
 
 

Hogan's toe up to toe up drill - not for slicers

Post by Bill » Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:28:38

Quote:

> Since our resident weed-whacker has been pushing this
> drill, I thought I'd mention that if you do it exactly
> like Hogan said, with the toe pointing straight up
> when the shaft is horizontal, you are actually fanning
> the clubface open.

> The face is square if it is tilted so that the clubface
> is looking back more towards the ball. There is some rotation,
> but not that much.

Not exactly. You want to look at the bottom edge of the club face and
it should be on the same angle as the spine. On the backswing where
you mentioned, it should appear to be closed, or tipping over toward
the target line. If you were to stand straight up there the bottom
edge of the club face would be vertical.

After hitting the ball and approximately in the same position you
described, except on the other side of the ball the bottom edge of the
club will appear to be open. But it will again be on the same angle as
the spine assuming the lean forward is still about the same as at
address. Stand straight up there and again the bottom edge will be
vertical.

Quote:
> Hogan built this fanning open into his swing as an anti-hook
> measure.  You can also see it if you follow the instructions
> he gives for how to waggle.  Useful compensations for someone
> guarding against a hook, but detrimental for
> someone battling a slice.

> The important position is where the toe points
> at the top of the backswing with the clubshaft horizontal
> again.  If the toe points down, the clubface has been fanned
> completely open.  If the toe points at an angle, so that the
> leading edge of the clubface is parallel to the swing plane,
> the clubface is considered "square".  If the clubface is
> looking straight up it is closed.

> This is easy to check on video or working in front of a
> full-length mirror.

> Most people will find it easier to get to the square position
> at the top if they keep the clubface square, or even closed earlier
> in the backswing (i.e. at the "toe up" position). You may
> also find the wrist*** works a little differently.