Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by Cal Golfe » Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:51:04


I agree....I don't think many Americans consider themselves underdogs
in any of these matches, but the odds are quite a bit more even for the
President's Cup (speaking in terms of World Rankings).

And that is why the Americans tend to play the Ryder Cup "not to lose",
because it is such an embarrassment when they do. I think it really
causes them to tighten up. But they play the President's Cup much
looser and with less pride on the line, since they woudn't really be
that embarrassed if they got beat by Goosen, Singh, Appleby, etc.

 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by Cal Golfe » Thu, 29 Sep 2005 01:09:46

It could be isolationism.
Or it could be perspective.
We're going to disagree on that one.

But I was careful not to use the phrase "relative importance" in my
post, since it will start a long thread about "important to whom?".

Let's just agree that apart from the golf angle, Europeans view the
world much differently than Americans, and in each case the histories
of the countries involved has a lot to do with it.  And when you add in
the golf angle, and the fact that when the Ryder Cup began, Britain was
THE MAJOR POWER in the golfing world, and that is no longer the case --
well, things can get pretty emotional on the Eastern side of the
Atlantic. As a result, the Ryder Cup is more than a friendly
competition to the Brits, but will likely not take on that importance
to American players any time soon.

 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by John » Thu, 29 Sep 2005 01:15:58

Quote:

> I agree....I don't think many Americans consider themselves underdogs
> in any of these matches, but the odds are quite a bit more even for the
> President's Cup (speaking in terms of World Rankings).

> And that is why the Americans tend to play the Ryder Cup "not to lose",
> because it is such an embarrassment when they do. I think it really
> causes them to tighten up. But they play the President's Cup much
> looser and with less pride on the line, since they woudn't really be
> that embarrassed if they got beat by Goosen, Singh, Appleby, etc.

I think the Americans play "all out" regardless.  There was definitely
no sign of them playing at less than 100% in the President's Cup.  I
think the American side has had a faulty method of choosing their
"horses" in the Ryder Cup in the past.  As a result, it was the best
Americans over the last 12 months versus the best Europeans over the
last 3 months (or something like that).  Since the Americans have a
deeper talent pool, if they just fix *that* I think they will beat the
Europeans every time.

It's true that the President's Cup is more evenly matched though.  I
came away from it thinking the only difference between the two is a
couple of clutch putts.  :-)

I also came away from it with a real admiration for Stewart Appleby's
golf game.  He just has the whole package.  I don't know why he is not
giving the Big Three a run for their money.  He must let his mind wander
or something out there, because his golf game is just about flawless.

That's my 2 cents.

 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by johnt » Thu, 29 Sep 2005 03:24:01

Quote:

> As a result, the Ryder Cup is more than a friendly
> competition to the Brits, but will likely not take on that importance
> to American players any time soon.

Well, it looked pretty important to all of them when Leonard holed that
monster putt against Olazabal....
 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by Bert Robbin » Thu, 29 Sep 2005 06:58:16



Quote:


>> Well, I disagree about the hype....I think this is the first Cup of any
>> kind in which the American players really seemed to be e***d about
>> playing and enjoying the competition.

> Probably because it's one of the few in recent times in which they were
> not on the wrong end of an embarrassing loss.

>> The Europeans (players and fans) seem to take the Ryder MUCH more
>> seriously than Americans do.  At least that is my impression in talking
>> with golfing friends over there.

> Why wouldn't you relish the opportunity to kick a little sand in the big
> boy's face? They have been told for so long that their Tour is second
> rate, and that all the real golf is played on the PGA Tour, that getting
> a chance to put a little egg on the US team's face means a lot.

>> That is certainly the case for the British Open as well.
>> I am trying to recall how old I was when I first heard there was a
>> British Open or a Ryder Cup. I know that I was very young when I first
>> heard of the Masters...

> This has less to do with the relative importance of The Open and the
> Masters than it does the isolationism of US TV networks and press.

> William Clark

So, you are a pompous ass?
 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by Simo » Thu, 29 Sep 2005 07:17:29

Quote:


> > I agree....I don't think many Americans consider themselves underdogs
> > in any of these matches, but the odds are quite a bit more even for the
> > President's Cup (speaking in terms of World Rankings).

> > And that is why the Americans tend to play the Ryder Cup "not to lose",
> > because it is such an embarrassment when they do. I think it really
> > causes them to tighten up. But they play the President's Cup much
> > looser and with less pride on the line, since they woudn't really be
> > that embarrassed if they got beat by Goosen, Singh, Appleby, etc.

> I think the Americans play "all out" regardless.  There was definitely
> no sign of them playing at less than 100% in the President's Cup.  I
> think the American side has had a faulty method of choosing their
> "horses" in the Ryder Cup in the past.  As a result, it was the best
> Americans over the last 12 months versus the best Europeans over the
> last 3 months (or something like that).  Since the Americans have a
> deeper talent pool, if they just fix *that* I think they will beat the
> Europeans every time.

I think it's currently something like the US pick over 2 years and the
Europeans over 1 year, but I'm sure that's varied over the last 10
years or so.   I'd like to see both teams pick using the same formula.
As it's USA v Europe and not tour v tour they could just pick the top
10 on the world ranking for each side.
 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by Eagl » Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:01:39

Quote:

> Well, I disagree about the hype....I think this is the first Cup of any
> kind in which the American players really seemed to be e***d about
> playing and enjoying the competition.

> The Europeans (players and fans) seem to take the Ryder MUCH more
> seriously than Americans do.  At least that is my impression in talking
> with golfing friends over there.

I don't get this impression. In fact, I think the opposite is true.
When the US team is doing well in the Ryder Cup or the President's Cup,
there are chants of "USA, USA, USA..." from the fans. The American
players react to this and play to the crowds,***pumps, high fives
etc..
This President's Cup the US team was doing well, so the players and
fans alike seemed more up for it. The last Ryder Cup was completely
dominated by the Europeans, hence the American crowds didn't have
anything to cheer about. But I still vividly remember Brookline - I've
never seen such a charged group of individuals.
If I may say so, two reasons why the US didn't do so well in the last
Ryder Cup were (i) The player-selection system didn't work in America's
favour, and (ii) Langer was a much stonger captain than Sutton.
 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by Cal Golfe » Fri, 30 Sep 2005 07:53:45

I agree that this was easily the most enjoyable Cup event I have ever
seen, and would have been fine if Appleby had beaten DeMarco or if
Cabrera had beaten Michelson.
 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by agolfe » Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:22:25

Quote:

> I know the Europeans will cringe at this suggestion, but the interest
> and popularity of the President's Cup is really gaining quickly on the
> Ryder, and there are several logical and good reasons for it:

Mate, the whole world is cringing at another typically myopic opinion.
I only watched because there was nothing else on, my tee time was a
couple of hours away, and there were 5 Australians playing. So much for
the rest of the world.

Quote:

> 1. Strength of the field
> There are few "no name" players in the President's Cup, but typically
> 4-5 on the Ryder Cup teams. The quality of golf I've seen the past few
> days surpasses anything I've seen in recent Ryder Cups. Heck, Toms just
> had to Eagle a hole to halve it against Immelman!

Just because a golfer has little profile on us tv does not make him
unknown. There is a whole world of golf outside the golf chanel!

Quote:

> 2. Interest of the US Players
> Because the European Ryder team often includes lower-ranked players, I
> think the US team is often in a no-win situation, since they are
> expected to win each time and have nothing to gain and everything to
> lose. That is not the case in the President's Cup, or anyone who
> watched the Singh/Appleby vs Woods/Furyk matches yesterday. Singh vs
> Woods head to head (or Woods vs Els) means much more than Woods vs any
> European player.

Except Nick O'Hern.

Quote:

> 3. Quality of the Broadcast
> Even with today's video technology, the video feed from the BBC to the
> USA is plain dreary, making the beautiful European courses look like
> cow pastures on American television. I have been to Europe many times
> and know the grass is just as green over there, but you would never
> know it by watching the televised broadcasts.

You need a new tv.

Quote:

> I hope more people would agree with Frank Nobilo's suggestion that at
> some point in the future the President's Cup and Ryder Cup are somehow
> merged or tied together, but given the egos involved, I don't think it
> will happen anytime soon. It is too bad.

Frank Nobilo is an idiot.  That's like blending lemonade with a good
cab sav or ordering a hamburger with mayonaise.  The Ryder Cup has a
long and  enviable history steeped in tradition.  It doesn't happen
overnight,it happens over lots of nights.  Be patient, when the
Presidents Cup is a 100 or so years old folks will care what happens.
 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by Eagl » Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:49:52

Again, I disagree with most of what you say.

WRT your Woods/Fasth comparison - If you ask the top players on the
European team, Sergio, Donald, Clarke, Harrington, Ollie, Bjorn etc,
which is more important, majors or Ryder Cup, I would be surprized if
one of them could honestly say the Ryder Cup. Of course when Ryder Cup
time comes around, they are totally focused on the Ryder Cup.

Quote:
> IMHO, the US players play in these silly season-like cup things for the
> fun of it and for the honour, but the Euro team players and fans see
> something more, and in my eyes for sure, and for sure many others, blow
> it way out of proportion.

"Blowing the Ryder Cup out of all proportion" in my opinion, was more
the responsibility of the American team/fans.
While writing this email, the images of Brookline come rushing into my
head. The aggression of Woods 'n Duval fists pumping, shouting after
every putt dropped - the aggression of some of the fans, their
disrespect for the European players, the debacle on the 17th green when
Justin rolled in that monster putt.

"American players play in these silly season-like cup things for the
fun of it and for the honour"

Hmm, I really don't think so!

Quote:

> IMHO, the US players play in these silly season-like cup things for the
> fun of it and for the honour, but the Euro team players and fans see
> something more, and in my eyes for sure, and for sure many others, blow
> it way out of proportion. The Presidents Cup was fun to watch this year
> because it wasn't blown so far out of perspective. I wanted the US team
> to win, but would have been equally happy had the International team
> won. It was a great event and displayed some great golf. No nutcase
> nationalistic jingoism at all. No psychotic commentators worrying about
> what this or that player wore, for example.

 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by William A. T. Clar » Sat, 01 Oct 2005 12:29:59



Quote:

> > Again, I disagree with most of what you say.

> snipero

> > "Blowing the Ryder Cup out of all proportion" in my opinion, was more
> > the responsibility of the American team/fans.
> > While writing this email, the images of Brookline come rushing into my
> > head. The aggression of Woods 'n Duval fists pumping, shouting after
> > every putt dropped - the aggression of some of the fans, their
> > disrespect for the European players, the debacle on the 17th green when
> > Justin rolled in that monster putt.

> Consider "images" of the limitied coverage of the last Ryder Cup in the US
> press. Outside The Golf Channel, about the best you saw was 30 second bits on
> Sportscenter. ESPN gave individual baseball games more than 30 seconds on
> Sportscenter. There was more interest in Brookline, but the image of the sore
> loser Euros persists in my mind, and is probably the reason why the revenue
> declined by over 1/2 from Brookline to The Belfry, and to the Euro Tour,
> that's a loss in the tens of millions of dollars for the prize fund. The US
> Tour and players get nothing, of course. Ollie is up 4 on the 12th tee and
> down 1 after 17 and blames what happened on 17! If that had happened on 12 he
> might have a case. What happened and how he responded characterizes the whole
> event,***and whine...and whine and whine.......and whine! ...and Y'all are
> still whining! If I were Tiger Woods or Phil Mickleson, I wouldn't play in
> The Ryder Cup. What good is it to players like them? They have nothing to
> prove to Paul McGinley...let alone Nicklas Fasth!  .or you or I for that
> matter.....

> If Brits don't like the way American golfers and American golf fans behave,
> they should keep their little cup ........ and maybe play the Aussies for it.
> Allenby, Appleby, Scott, Baddeley, Hensby, Lonard, O'Hearn and the rest will
> give the Brits a good run for the cup, but probably not much money!

Oh, my, aren't we the patronizing one? Frankly, if you were Tiger Woods
or Phil Mickleson you might as well not bother playing in the Ryder Cup
for all the contribution these two have made recently to their team. I
think playing the Aussies might be a good idea - if they give the
Europeans a "good run for their money" that would put them some way
ahead of the challenge offered by the US players of late.

Now, go untwist the knickers, and try not to out-whine Ollie and the
rest that you want to jump all over. And if you can give the US team
some advice on how to beat this rag-tag group of inferior hackers, then
I'm sure they would appreciate it. They certainly need it.

William Clark

 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by Eagl » Sat, 01 Oct 2005 20:15:05

Sorry for being a whining European.

So, what you're saying is that the US team were really up for the
Ryder Cup up to and including the Brookline match - but because us
Europeans are such sore losers, and whine a lot, the Ryder Cup lost all
its attraction and popularity in the US.

I mentioned the Brookline match not to highlight behavioural issues on
the US side, but to demonstrate how much the Ryder Cup means to US
players and fans alike. It is the perception on your side of the
Atlantic that the Europeans have blown the importance of the Ryder Cup
out of all proportion - that is very difficult for us Europeans to
accept as the perception on this side of the water is that the
Americans are at fault here.

Although I strongly believe us Europeans to be neither whiners nor sore
losers, that seems to be your perception, I have no desire to argue
this point out.
But what I would like to say is your attack on Ollie's character is
unjust. He is a model golfer, a great player and a true gentleman on
and off the golf course. If he had a point to make after the Brookline
match, you can be sure it was warranted.

Quote:


> > Again, I disagree with most of what you say.

> snipero

> > "Blowing the Ryder Cup out of all proportion" in my opinion, was more
> > the responsibility of the American team/fans.
> > While writing this email, the images of Brookline come rushing into my
> > head. The aggression of Woods 'n Duval fists pumping, shouting after
> > every putt dropped - the aggression of some of the fans, their
> > disrespect for the European players, the debacle on the 17th green when
> > Justin rolled in that monster putt.

> Consider "images" of the limitied coverage of the last Ryder Cup in the US
> press. Outside The Golf Channel, about the best you saw was 30 second bits on
> Sportscenter. ESPN gave individual baseball games more than 30 seconds on
> Sportscenter. There was more interest in Brookline, but the image of the sore
> loser Euros persists in my mind, and is probably the reason why the revenue
> declined by over 1/2 from Brookline to The Belfry, and to the Euro Tour,
> that's a loss in the tens of millions of dollars for the prize fund. The US
> Tour and players get nothing, of course. Ollie is up 4 on the 12th tee and
> down 1 after 17 and blames what happened on 17! If that had happened on 12 he
> might have a case. What happened and how he responded characterizes the whole
> event,***and whine...and whine and whine.......and whine! ...and Y'all are
> still whining! If I were Tiger Woods or Phil Mickleson, I wouldn't play in
> The Ryder Cup. What good is it to players like them? They have nothing to
> prove to Paul McGinley...let alone Nicklas Fasth!  .or you or I for that
> matter.....

> If Brits don't like the way American golfers and American golf fans behave,
> they should keep their little cup ........ and maybe play the Aussies for it.
> Allenby, Appleby, Scott, Baddeley, Hensby, Lonard, O'Hearn and the rest will
> give the Brits a good run for the cup, but probably not much money!

> I

> --
> http://SportToday.org/
> http://SportToday.org/

 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by johnt » Sat, 01 Oct 2005 20:59:45

.. Ollie is up 4 on the 12th tee and

Quote:
> down 1 after 17 and blames what happened on 17! If that had happened on 12 he
> might have a case. What happened and how he responded characterizes the whole
> event,***and whine...and whine and whine.......and whine! ...and Y'all are
> still whining!

Olazabal made no complaint about the events on the 17th, then or since.
 When asked by journalists if it affected his putt, he replied 'not at
all'.

Once again, the gulf between you and facts is colossal.

 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by johnt » Sun, 02 Oct 2005 03:08:16

Quote:



> > .. Ollie is up 4 on the 12th tee and
> > > down 1 after 17 and blames what happened on 17! If that had happened on 12 he
> > > might have a case. What happened and how he responded characterizes the whole
> > > event,***and whine...and whine and whine.......and whine! ...and Y'all are
> > > still whining!

> > Olazabal made no complaint about the events on the 17th, then or since.
> >  When asked by journalists if it affected his putt, he replied 'not at
> > all'.

> > Once again, the gulf between you and facts is colossal.

> Euros didn't whine and whine and whine about some
> presumed great "incident" on the 17th green?

People other than Olazabal did complain, but that isn't what you wrote.

Re-read your original statement above:
"...how he responded characterizes the whole event,***and whine."
Don't re-write it.

Quote:

> This years President's Cup was better than any Ryder Cup I have ever
> seen, and the US winning had nothing to do with it. The golf was great,
> the atmosphere was great, and that made it fun to watch. No requirement
> that one side "properly hate" the other.

Where's the hate in the RC?
 
 
 

Presidents Cup Becoming More Popular Than Ryder Cup

Post by The_Professo » Sun, 02 Oct 2005 03:39:23

Quote:


> > Euros didn't whine and whine and whine about some
> > presumed great "incident" on the 17th green?

> People other than Olazabal did complain, but that isn't what you wrote.

> Re-read your original statement above:
> "...how he responded characterizes the whole event,***and whine."
> Don't re-write it.

Ollie's original respond was to whine about it. I'm happy he later saw
the light!

Quote:

> > This years President's Cup was better than any Ryder Cup I have ever
> > seen, and the US winning had nothing to do with it. The golf was great,
> > the atmosphere was great, and that made it fun to watch. No requirement
> > that one side "properly hate" the other.

> Where's the hate in the RC?

Just quoting Paul Casey...accurately, BTW, when I reference the idea of
an OSU, Michgan football game.