ABT swing anybody?

ABT swing anybody?

Post by Mark » Wed, 27 Mar 2013 23:35:16


I'm going to always golf in the 90's unless I get rid of the flip, my
life-long flaw.  For the first time, I am serious about this goal and
willing to take a step back in order to take a leap forward.  I
couldn't be more optimistic.

I imagine there are several methods of getting rid of the wrist flip
before impact, but for me the key is ABT (Always Be Turning).  As I've
been practicing in my driveway (2 feet of snow still), I feel my right
wrist break/flip if I slow down my pivot/rotation.  If I commit to
turning fully through the shot, I'm able to reach impact with my left
wrist flat and my right wrist cupped back.

The main reason I could never tackle this is that I saw it as a
reduction in speed and distance.  I thought if I couldn't hit the
driver 300 years once or twice per round, what's the use.  The reason
I am so committed to this swing this time is that I feel like my non-
flip practice swing has at least the speed of my flippy swing.  And it
obviously should have better shaft lean and a much lower trajectory.
My 7-iron look like a 140 yard PW at the end of the last season.  I'll
quit before I go back to that.

Any thoughts on my ABT approach to getting rid of the flips?  Anyone
have a similar thought on the importance of the pivot and a strong
rotation?  Thanks!

 
 
 

ABT swing anybody?

Post by Alan Bake » Wed, 27 Mar 2013 23:51:33

In article

Quote:

> I'm going to always golf in the 90's unless I get rid of the flip, my
> life-long flaw.  For the first time, I am serious about this goal and
> willing to take a step back in order to take a leap forward.  I
> couldn't be more optimistic.

> I imagine there are several methods of getting rid of the wrist flip
> before impact, but for me the key is ABT (Always Be Turning).  As I've
> been practicing in my driveway (2 feet of snow still), I feel my right
> wrist break/flip if I slow down my pivot/rotation.  If I commit to
> turning fully through the shot, I'm able to reach impact with my left
> wrist flat and my right wrist cupped back.

> The main reason I could never tackle this is that I saw it as a
> reduction in speed and distance.  I thought if I couldn't hit the
> driver 300 years once or twice per round, what's the use.  The reason
> I am so committed to this swing this time is that I feel like my non-
> flip practice swing has at least the speed of my flippy swing.  And it
> obviously should have better shaft lean and a much lower trajectory.
> My 7-iron look like a 140 yard PW at the end of the last season.  I'll
> quit before I go back to that.

> Any thoughts on my ABT approach to getting rid of the flips?  Anyone
> have a similar thought on the importance of the pivot and a strong
> rotation?  Thanks!

I can't say I've ever thought of it in those terms precisely ("ABT",
etc.), but I've definitely used the practice thought of simply focussing
on my torso rotation.

People may say that "you can't use your hands!" or "the hands have no
role in the golf swing!", but I think the truth is closer to

"If you pay attention to your hands and arms, then other parts of your
body won't work on automatic as well as your hands and arms will if
you're paying attention to everything else."

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

 
 
 

ABT swing anybody?

Post by Howard Braze » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 04:18:34



Quote:
>People may say that "you can't use your hands!" or "the hands have no
>role in the golf swing!", but I think the truth is closer to

>"If you pay attention to your hands and arms, then other parts of your
>body won't work on automatic as well as your hands and arms will if
>you're paying attention to everything else."

I like that.

--
Anybody who agrees with one side all of the time or disagrees with the
other side all of the time is equally guilty of letting others do
their thinking for them.

 
 
 

ABT swing anybody?

Post by Silvi » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 06:51:31


Quote:
> I'm going to always golf in the 90's unless I get rid of the flip, my
> life-long flaw.  For the first time, I am serious about this goal and
> willing to take a step back in order to take a leap forward.  I
> couldn't be more optimistic.

> I imagine there are several methods of getting rid of the wrist flip
> before impact, but for me the key is ABT (Always Be Turning).  As I've
> been practicing in my driveway (2 feet of snow still), I feel my right
> wrist break/flip if I slow down my pivot/rotation.  If I commit to
> turning fully through the shot, I'm able to reach impact with my left
> wrist flat and my right wrist cupped back.

> The main reason I could never tackle this is that I saw it as a
> reduction in speed and distance.  I thought if I couldn't hit the
> driver 300 years once or twice per round, what's the use.  The reason
> I am so committed to this swing this time is that I feel like my non-
> flip practice swing has at least the speed of my flippy swing.  And it
> obviously should have better shaft lean and a much lower trajectory.
> My 7-iron look like a 140 yard PW at the end of the last season.  I'll
> quit before I go back to that.

> Any thoughts on my ABT approach to getting rid of the flips?  Anyone
> have a similar thought on the importance of the pivot and a strong
> rotation?  Thanks!

Book a practice session on a good golf simulator with detailed swing
metrics feedback. Then you will see hard evidence that working the hands
does absolutely NOTHING for swing speed. It is merely a distraction and
makes your swing less repeatable.
 
 
 

ABT swing anybody?

Post by Alan Bake » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 07:01:02


Quote:


> > I'm going to always golf in the 90's unless I get rid of the flip, my
> > life-long flaw.  For the first time, I am serious about this goal and
> > willing to take a step back in order to take a leap forward.  I
> > couldn't be more optimistic.

> > I imagine there are several methods of getting rid of the wrist flip
> > before impact, but for me the key is ABT (Always Be Turning).  As I've
> > been practicing in my driveway (2 feet of snow still), I feel my right
> > wrist break/flip if I slow down my pivot/rotation.  If I commit to
> > turning fully through the shot, I'm able to reach impact with my left
> > wrist flat and my right wrist cupped back.

> > The main reason I could never tackle this is that I saw it as a
> > reduction in speed and distance.  I thought if I couldn't hit the
> > driver 300 years once or twice per round, what's the use.  The reason
> > I am so committed to this swing this time is that I feel like my non-
> > flip practice swing has at least the speed of my flippy swing.  And it
> > obviously should have better shaft lean and a much lower trajectory.
> > My 7-iron look like a 140 yard PW at the end of the last season.  I'll
> > quit before I go back to that.

> > Any thoughts on my ABT approach to getting rid of the flips?  Anyone
> > have a similar thought on the importance of the pivot and a strong
> > rotation?  Thanks!

> Book a practice session on a good golf simulator with detailed swing
> metrics feedback. Then you will see hard evidence that working the hands
> does absolutely NOTHING for swing speed. It is merely a distraction and
> makes your swing less repeatable.

No, I'm sorry, but I don't agree.

Using the hands at the wrong time, yeah: that won't help your swing
speed. And I'll grant you that it is easier to use them at the wrong
time than at the right time.

I'll also grant that not thinking about the hands and using what happens
almost automatically is probably a better option than thinking about
your hands too much and at the wrong time.

But professional after professional from Ben Hogan on has said that
using the power of the arms and hands IS important if you've done the
correct things with the swing from the feet up to the torso.

The motions of the golf swing (I think) begin from the ground up, but
there is no magic that causes that to stop being appropriate when we get
to the shoulders.

:-)

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

 
 
 

ABT swing anybody?

Post by Silvi » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 07:26:57


Quote:



>>> I'm going to always golf in the 90's unless I get rid of the flip, my
>>> life-long flaw.  For the first time, I am serious about this goal and
>>> willing to take a step back in order to take a leap forward.  I
>>> couldn't be more optimistic.

>>> I imagine there are several methods of getting rid of the wrist flip
>>> before impact, but for me the key is ABT (Always Be Turning).  As I've
>>> been practicing in my driveway (2 feet of snow still), I feel my right
>>> wrist break/flip if I slow down my pivot/rotation.  If I commit to
>>> turning fully through the shot, I'm able to reach impact with my left
>>> wrist flat and my right wrist cupped back.

>>> The main reason I could never tackle this is that I saw it as a
>>> reduction in speed and distance.  I thought if I couldn't hit the
>>> driver 300 years once or twice per round, what's the use.  The reason
>>> I am so committed to this swing this time is that I feel like my non-
>>> flip practice swing has at least the speed of my flippy swing.  And it
>>> obviously should have better shaft lean and a much lower trajectory.
>>> My 7-iron look like a 140 yard PW at the end of the last season.  I'll
>>> quit before I go back to that.

>>> Any thoughts on my ABT approach to getting rid of the flips?  Anyone
>>> have a similar thought on the importance of the pivot and a strong
>>> rotation?  Thanks!

>> Book a practice session on a good golf simulator with detailed swing
>> metrics feedback. Then you will see hard evidence that working the hands
>> does absolutely NOTHING for swing speed. It is merely a distraction and
>> makes your swing less repeatable.

> No, I'm sorry, but I don't agree.

> Using the hands at the wrong time, yeah: that won't help your swing
> speed. And I'll grant you that it is easier to use them at the wrong
> time than at the right time.

> I'll also grant that not thinking about the hands and using what happens
> almost automatically is probably a better option than thinking about
> your hands too much and at the wrong time.

> But professional after professional from Ben Hogan on has said that
> using the power of the arms and hands IS important if you've done the
> correct things with the swing from the feet up to the torso.

> The motions of the golf swing (I think) begin from the ground up, but
> there is no magic that causes that to stop being appropriate when we get
> to the shoulders.

> :-)

I am not saying the hands have no role in the swing, quite the opposite.
I am just saying that anything related to the release of the club is an
inevitable result of the rotation of the body and shoulders, the
movement of the arms and the proper tension in the shoulders, arms,
wrists and hands.
Of course the hands need to rotate but that should be a result of
turning the shoulders through impact. Any deliberate action of the hands
or forearms to manipulate the release is an interference with the
optimal sequence of cause and effect.

Golfers who manipulate their hands usually do this because their swing
is flawed and does NOT result in an automatic release. They either do
not swing on a proper plane or their swing tempo/rhythm is wrong. The
latter is often caused by rushing the down-swing and decelerating
through impact.

Good golfers FOCUS on the release through impact because it is a primary
indicator of the total quality of their swing but they do so passively.
If the release and ball contact is not optimal they know they ***ed up
somewhere earlier in the swing.

 
 
 

ABT swing anybody?

Post by Alan Bake » Fri, 29 Mar 2013 01:32:22


Quote:





> >>> I'm going to always golf in the 90's unless I get rid of the flip, my
> >>> life-long flaw.  For the first time, I am serious about this goal and
> >>> willing to take a step back in order to take a leap forward.  I
> >>> couldn't be more optimistic.

> >>> I imagine there are several methods of getting rid of the wrist flip
> >>> before impact, but for me the key is ABT (Always Be Turning).  As I've
> >>> been practicing in my driveway (2 feet of snow still), I feel my right
> >>> wrist break/flip if I slow down my pivot/rotation.  If I commit to
> >>> turning fully through the shot, I'm able to reach impact with my left
> >>> wrist flat and my right wrist cupped back.

> >>> The main reason I could never tackle this is that I saw it as a
> >>> reduction in speed and distance.  I thought if I couldn't hit the
> >>> driver 300 years once or twice per round, what's the use.  The reason
> >>> I am so committed to this swing this time is that I feel like my non-
> >>> flip practice swing has at least the speed of my flippy swing.  And it
> >>> obviously should have better shaft lean and a much lower trajectory.
> >>> My 7-iron look like a 140 yard PW at the end of the last season.  I'll
> >>> quit before I go back to that.

> >>> Any thoughts on my ABT approach to getting rid of the flips?  Anyone
> >>> have a similar thought on the importance of the pivot and a strong
> >>> rotation?  Thanks!

> >> Book a practice session on a good golf simulator with detailed swing
> >> metrics feedback. Then you will see hard evidence that working the hands
> >> does absolutely NOTHING for swing speed. It is merely a distraction and
> >> makes your swing less repeatable.

> > No, I'm sorry, but I don't agree.

> > Using the hands at the wrong time, yeah: that won't help your swing
> > speed. And I'll grant you that it is easier to use them at the wrong
> > time than at the right time.

> > I'll also grant that not thinking about the hands and using what happens
> > almost automatically is probably a better option than thinking about
> > your hands too much and at the wrong time.

> > But professional after professional from Ben Hogan on has said that
> > using the power of the arms and hands IS important if you've done the
> > correct things with the swing from the feet up to the torso.

> > The motions of the golf swing (I think) begin from the ground up, but
> > there is no magic that causes that to stop being appropriate when we get
> > to the shoulders.

> > :-)

> I am not saying the hands have no role in the swing, quite the opposite.
> I am just saying that anything related to the release of the club is an
> inevitable result of the rotation of the body and shoulders, the
> movement of the arms and the proper tension in the shoulders, arms,
> wrists and hands.
> Of course the hands need to rotate but that should be a result of
> turning the shoulders through impact. Any deliberate action of the hands
> or forearms to manipulate the release is an interference with the
> optimal sequence of cause and effect.

> Golfers who manipulate their hands usually do this because their swing
> is flawed and does NOT result in an automatic release. They either do
> not swing on a proper plane or their swing tempo/rhythm is wrong. The
> latter is often caused by rushing the down-swing and decelerating
> through impact.

> Good golfers FOCUS on the release through impact because it is a primary
> indicator of the total quality of their swing but they do so passively.
> If the release and ball contact is not optimal they know they ***ed up
> somewhere earlier in the swing.

I think I'll still disagree.

You're still saying that there is some difference that makes it alright
to make a deliberate action with the feet, legs, trunk, shoulders...

...but not the arms and hands...

...and I just don't buy it.

I do believe that because of the nature of the human nervous system, it
is more /difficult/ to make deliberate actions with the hands while
keeping the correct sequence of events happening, but when Ben Hogan,
Nick Faldo, and others all talk about how moving the body correctly lets
them attack hard with the hands, they mean what they say:

Do the right things with the feet, the legs, the torso, the shoulders...

...and you'll be free to "hit hard with both hands".

:-)

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

 
 
 

ABT swing anybody?

Post by Dene » Fri, 29 Mar 2013 03:00:20


Quote:




> >>> I'm going to always golf in the 90's unless I get rid of the flip, my
> >>> life-long flaw. ?For the first time, I am serious about this goal and
> >>> willing to take a step back in order to take a leap forward. ?I
> >>> couldn't be more optimistic.

> >>> I imagine there are several methods of getting rid of the wrist flip
> >>> before impact, but for me the key is ABT (Always Be Turning). ?As I've
> >>> been practicing in my driveway (2 feet of snow still), I feel my right
> >>> wrist break/flip if I slow down my pivot/rotation. ?If I commit to
> >>> turning fully through the shot, I'm able to reach impact with my left
> >>> wrist flat and my right wrist cupped back.

> >>> The main reason I could never tackle this is that I saw it as a
> >>> reduction in speed and distance. ?I thought if I couldn't hit the
> >>> driver 300 years once or twice per round, what's the use. ?The reason
> >>> I am so committed to this swing this time is that I feel like my non-
> >>> flip practice swing has at least the speed of my flippy swing. ?And it
> >>> obviously should have better shaft lean and a much lower trajectory.
> >>> My 7-iron look like a 140 yard PW at the end of the last season. ?I'll
> >>> quit before I go back to that.

> >>> Any thoughts on my ABT approach to getting rid of the flips? ?Anyone
> >>> have a similar thought on the importance of the pivot and a strong
> >>> rotation? ?Thanks!

> >> Book a practice session on a good golf simulator with detailed swing
> >> metrics feedback. Then you will see hard evidence that working the hands
> >> does absolutely NOTHING for swing speed. It is merely a distraction and
> >> makes your swing less repeatable.

> > No, I'm sorry, but I don't agree.

> > Using the hands at the wrong time, yeah: that won't help your swing
> > speed. And I'll grant you that it is easier to use them at the wrong
> > time than at the right time.

> > I'll also grant that not thinking about the hands and using what happens
> > almost automatically is probably a better option than thinking about
> > your hands too much and at the wrong time.

> > But professional after professional from Ben Hogan on has said that
> > using the power of the arms and hands IS important if you've done the
> > correct things with the swing from the feet up to the torso.

> > The motions of the golf swing (I think) begin from the ground up, but
> > there is no magic that causes that to stop being appropriate when we get
> > to the shoulders.

> > :-)

> I am not saying the hands have no role in the swing, quite the opposite.
> I am just saying that anything related to the release of the club is an
> inevitable result of the rotation of the body and shoulders, the
> movement of the arms and the proper tension in the shoulders, arms,
> wrists and hands.
> Of course the hands need to rotate but that should be a result of
> turning the shoulders through impact. Any deliberate action of the hands
> or forearms to manipulate the release is an interference with the
> optimal sequence of cause and effect.

> Golfers who manipulate their hands usually do this because their swing
> is flawed and does NOT result in an automatic release. They either do
> not swing on a proper plane or their swing tempo/rhythm is wrong. The
> latter is often caused by rushing the down-swing and decelerating
> through impact.

> Good golfers FOCUS on the release through impact because it is a primary
> indicator of the total quality of their swing but they do so passively.
> If the release and ball contact is not optimal they know they ***ed up
> somewhere earlier in the swing.

Good post, Silvio. I think the key words are "manipulate their
hands."  If a golfer adds extra movement during the downswing, like a
flip, then he/she will be headed for inconsistent ball striking.

Earlier I posted about my efforts to release the clubface.  I had to
teach myself via over-correction to quick blocking a release.  That
works on the range but on the course, my best strikes are when I think
"look ma...no hands" and do nothing but let my hands naturally rotate
during the downswing.

-Greg

 
 
 

ABT swing anybody?

Post by otte » Fri, 29 Mar 2013 20:07:10


Quote:
> I'm going to always golf in the 90's unless I get rid of the flip, my
> life-long flaw. ?For the first time, I am serious about this goal and
> willing to take a step back in order to take a leap forward. ?I
> couldn't be more optimistic.

> I imagine there are several methods of getting rid of the wrist flip
> before impact, but for me the key is ABT (Always Be Turning). ?As I've
> been practicing in my driveway (2 feet of snow still), I feel my right
> wrist break/flip if I slow down my pivot/rotation. ?If I commit to
> turning fully through the shot, I'm able to reach impact with my left
> wrist flat and my right wrist cupped back.

> The main reason I could never tackle this is that I saw it as a
> reduction in speed and distance. ?I thought if I couldn't hit the
> driver 300 years once or twice per round, what's the use. ?The reason
> I am so committed to this swing this time is that I feel like my non-
> flip practice swing has at least the speed of my flippy swing. ?And it
> obviously should have better shaft lean and a much lower trajectory.
> My 7-iron look like a 140 yard PW at the end of the last season. ?I'll
> quit before I go back to that.

> Any thoughts on my ABT approach to getting rid of the flips? ?Anyone
> have a similar thought on the importance of the pivot and a strong
> rotation? ?Thanks!

Although it is easy to misapply any swing thought, your idea is the
same one that my instructor gave me to finally fix my flipping.  If
you look at video of a flipper, their belly button is usually pointed
right at the ball at impact, rather than continuing to rotate.  I can
say this worked for me a whole lot better than focusing on my hands,
and trying to maintain wrist cup, etc.

Refreshing to read something that I actually agree on here.

 
 
 

ABT swing anybody?

Post by Howard Braze » Fri, 29 Mar 2013 23:00:06



Quote:
>Ummm...

>Tutelman talks about "centrifugal force" as if it actually exists...

>It doesn't.

>That pretty much puts paid to any claims he might make about his
>"scientific" and "physics-based" analysis of the golf swing.

It still works quite well as a concept for such things as golf.   (My
B.S. was in physics).

--
Anybody who agrees with one side all of the time or disagrees with the
other side all of the time is equally guilty of letting others do
their thinking for them.

 
 
 

ABT swing anybody?

Post by Horvath1.. » Sat, 30 Mar 2013 02:45:36


wrote this crap:

Quote:
>It still works quite well as a concept for such things as golf.   (My
>B.S. was in physics).

Really?  Can you calculate the determinate of a 7 by 7 matrix?

This signature is now the ultimate
power in the universe

 
 
 

ABT swing anybody?

Post by bkni.. » Sat, 30 Mar 2013 03:11:17

Quote:


>wrote this crap:

>>It still works quite well as a concept for such things as golf.   (My
>>B.S. was in physics).

>Really?  Can you calculate the determinate of a 7 by 7 matrix?

I can't, but I can spell determinant.
 
 
 

ABT swing anybody?

Post by Horvath1.. » Sat, 30 Mar 2013 03:24:25


crap:

Quote:

>>>It still works quite well as a concept for such things as golf.   (My
>>>B.S. was in physics).

>>Really?  Can you calculate the determinate of a 7 by 7 matrix?

>I can't, but I can spell determinant.

That's what the spellchecker changes it to.

This signature is now the ultimate
power in the universe