Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by KenPit » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:55:33


http://forums.prospero.com/gc-golf/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E

 VIEWER'S FORUM -  USGA = What are they thinking?

"Let me state that I'm no big fan of the USGA for a variety of
reasons, prior to this US Open. Some of their actions during this
tournament have cemented my opinions further.

First, they put out the word that, since the greens are flat, a record
score is likely to be shot. Their media lapdogs eagerly concur, and
fret in their columns how awful this is. Of course, when the real
experts, the players, finally arrived at Bethpage, they said how
stupid people were for believing this. The players turned out to be
right.

Second, on Friday many golfers couldn't even reach the fairway on #10.
Tom Meeks comes on and says, weakly, that there is no golfer in the
field who can't fly the ball 250 yards.

Meeks, this is b.s. There are PLENTY of world class golfers who fly
the ball less than 250, in the 230-250 range. Give them the normal 30
yards of roll and they are averaging 260-280, which now covers 1/2 the
entire PGA Tour. You have bought into the media overhype that everyone
on tour bombs the ball on the carry.

As a result, you have set up a course where only guys who fly it at
least 250 or so can compete. Congratulations. You just effectively
eliminated 1/2 the field.

Distance should be rewarded, yes. But trying to make sure Tiger hits a
few long irons on par 4's should not come at the expense of 1/2 the
field not even being able to reach the green.

Meeks also made the idiotic statement that nothing in the rules says a
guy in the US Open has to be able to reach a par 4 in two shots. Uh,
the very definition of a par 4 is that an expert golfer (and even the
worst US Open participant surely is an expert) is able to reach the
green in two shots.

In my opinion, the US Open has always been a poor test of golf,
because not all phases of the game were tested adequately. Iron
recovery ability was non-existent due to the length of the rough, and
short game mastery was always inconsequential because of the
guessing-game-length rough around the greens. Now, the Open is even
more limited in scope due to the emphasis on powerball. "

 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by Kevin D. Tim » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:38:46

Quote:

<snipped a bit>

> Meeks also made the idiotic statement that nothing in the rules says a
> guy in the US Open has to be able to reach a par 4 in two shots. Uh,
> the very definition of a par 4 is that an expert golfer (and even the
> worst US Open participant surely is an expert) is able to reach the
> green in two shots.

<snipped a bit more>

This is the one statement that (to me) stands out the most.  That was
always my understanding about the layout of the course, that an expert
must be able to reach the putting surface in 2 less than the posted
par for the hole.  Saying that there is no 'rule' to that affect is
just stupid (as you so eloquently stated already)

--

KT

I took the RSG 2002 Pledge to not encourage trolls.

 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by Wendy Domini » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:44:59

always my understanding about the layout of the course, that an expert must be
able to reach the putting surface in 2 less than the posted par for the hole.
Saying that there is no 'rule' to that affect is just stupid (as you so
eloquently stated already

KT >>

There is no "rule" or definition of par in the Rules of Golf.

Wendy

 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by Kevin D. Tim » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:31:35

Quote:

> There is no "rule" or definition of par in the Rules of Golf.

> Wendy

And yet, there is a section on Par competitions. So, WTF is par?

--

KT

I took the RSG 2002 Pledge to not encourage trolls.

 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by Colin Wilso » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:32:38

Quote:

> And yet, there is a section on Par competitions. So, WTF is par?

Par is simply an arbitrary fixed score at each hole against which the
player's score can be compared. The "Par" mentioned in Rule 32 is not a
definition of par itself ... and there is no definition of "par" in the
Definitions either.

Somewhere on the USGA or R&A web sites is the recommendation for the par
for holes of certain length. But it is *not fixed or mandatory*, and can
be adjusted for the competition and the terrain (e.g. uphill or
downhill).

BTW, the Par Competition referred to in Rule 32 is commonly played in
countries like the UK and Australia. Although strictly it is a form of
stroke play, the reckoning is more like matchplay. I like to think of it
as matchplay against the "ideal golfer" on your own handicap (e.g. the
"ideal golfer" on a handicap of 20 would expect to double-bogey the two
hardest holes, and bogey the other six*** compared to the par on the
card).

Similarly, the "ideal" scratch golfer would expect to par every hole ...
so a birdie would return a "win", a par would return a "half", and a
bogey or worse would return a "loss". At the end of the round their
score would be calculated as so many up or down i.e. compared to their
*par*.

For a 10 handicapper like me, the "par" for the 10 hardest holes would
be *one more* than the par shown on the card. I would calculate the
win/half/loss return accordingly.

Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
RSG Roll Call: http://SportToday.org/
Trentham Golf Club: http://SportToday.org/
------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by Lee Harri » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:47:14

Uh,

Quote:
> the very definition of a par 4 is that an expert golfer (and even the
> worst US Open participant surely is an expert) is able to reach the
> green in two shots.

I dont think that is necessarily correct, not to mention the very real idea
of a "half par" which has been oft discussed throughout the history of golf
course architecture. the par 4.5 for example of which augusta 13th is the
classic example.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 09/02/02

 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by david s- » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:57:07


Quote:
> http://forums.prospero.com/gc-golf/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E

> Second, on Friday many golfers couldn't even reach the fairway on #10.
> Tom Meeks comes on and says, weakly, that there is no golfer in the
> field who can't fly the ball 250 yards.

> Meeks, this is b.s. There are PLENTY of world class golfers who fly
> the ball less than 250, in the 230-250 range.

Corey Pavin....average drive for the US Open...239 yards!!

cheers
david

 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by Wendy Domini » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:58:40

Although Rule 32 is titled "Bogey, Par and Stableford competitions", within the
explanations for these formats there is no reference to 'par", but only to a
"fixed score".

Par is NOT a part of the RULES of golf. I have a USGA Handicap system and
committee manual. This booklet DOES cover par and yardages for guidances. But
it is not part of the rules.

Wendy

 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by \ » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:29:09

I don't disagree with any of the statements below.  The USGA's premiere
event is only my third "favorite" of the major championships, though I will
acknowledge that it is probably the most prestigious, simply because it's
probably the hardest to win.

That said, I find watching the best players of the world generally unable to
showcase their remarkable recovery skills to be somewhat less that
gratifying from a spectator's standpoint.

But in the end, if the USGA's goal is, as they've so often said, "to
identify the best player," then it's hard to argue that they didn't get it
right when the #1 player in the world finishes first and the #2 player in
the world finishes 2nd.

You certainly can't call it a fluke.  As difficult as it may have been, this
was no Carnoustie.  (Paul WHO?)

Randy


Quote:
> http://forums.prospero.com/gc-golf/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E

>  VIEWER'S FORUM -  USGA = What are they thinking?

> "Let me state that I'm no big fan of the USGA for a variety of
> reasons, prior to this US Open. Some of their actions during this
> tournament have cemented my opinions further.

> First, they put out the word that, since the greens are flat, a record
> score is likely to be shot. Their media lapdogs eagerly concur, and
> fret in their columns how awful this is. Of course, when the real
> experts, the players, finally arrived at Bethpage, they said how
> stupid people were for believing this. The players turned out to be
> right.

> Second, on Friday many golfers couldn't even reach the fairway on #10.
> Tom Meeks comes on and says, weakly, that there is no golfer in the
> field who can't fly the ball 250 yards.

> Meeks, this is b.s. There are PLENTY of world class golfers who fly
> the ball less than 250, in the 230-250 range. Give them the normal 30
> yards of roll and they are averaging 260-280, which now covers 1/2 the
> entire PGA Tour. You have bought into the media overhype that everyone
> on tour bombs the ball on the carry.

> As a result, you have set up a course where only guys who fly it at
> least 250 or so can compete. Congratulations. You just effectively
> eliminated 1/2 the field.

> Distance should be rewarded, yes. But trying to make sure Tiger hits a
> few long irons on par 4's should not come at the expense of 1/2 the
> field not even being able to reach the green.

> Meeks also made the idiotic statement that nothing in the rules says a
> guy in the US Open has to be able to reach a par 4 in two shots. Uh,
> the very definition of a par 4 is that an expert golfer (and even the
> worst US Open participant surely is an expert) is able to reach the
> green in two shots.

> In my opinion, the US Open has always been a poor test of golf,
> because not all phases of the game were tested adequately. Iron
> recovery ability was non-existent due to the length of the rough, and
> short game mastery was always inconsequential because of the
> guessing-game-length rough around the greens. Now, the Open is even
> more limited in scope due to the emphasis on powerball. "

 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by Bill Cochran » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:21:57

Well there is no rule that says a par 3 can't be 500 yards either, so Meeks
comment is true, but I'm tempted to say it is irrelevant.

What I see as most distressing about this aspect about laying out the
course, is that while trying to make the course more difficult for the
longer hitters, as Augusta has had to do (Driver, wedge on par 5's seems to
me ridiculous) the USGA seems to have made the course more difficult for the
shorter hitter.



Quote:

> <snipped a bit>

> > Meeks also made the idiotic statement that nothing in the rules says a
> > guy in the US Open has to be able to reach a par 4 in two shots. Uh,
> > the very definition of a par 4 is that an expert golfer (and even the
> > worst US Open participant surely is an expert) is able to reach the
> > green in two shots.

> <snipped a bit more>

> This is the one statement that (to me) stands out the most.  That was
> always my understanding about the layout of the course, that an expert
> must be able to reach the putting surface in 2 less than the posted
> par for the hole.  Saying that there is no 'rule' to that affect is
> just stupid (as you so eloquently stated already)

> --

> KT

> I took the RSG 2002 Pledge to not encourage trolls.

 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by Bud Wood » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 23:12:34

The USGA was just trying to defend the course from the new technology
super-duper balls, which if struck even halfway decently go 320 yards -
doesn't everyone believe this?

:-(

{If about a half dozen of the holes had been shortened to reasonable PGA
tour lengths, Nick Faldo would have had a very good chance to win the
doggone thing!}

Quote:
> Second, on Friday many golfers couldn't even reach the fairway on #10.
> Tom Meeks comes on and says, weakly, that there is no golfer in the
> field who can't fly the ball 250 yards.

> Meeks, this is b.s. There are PLENTY of world class golfers who fly
> the ball less than 250, in the 230-250 range. Give them the normal 30
> yards of roll and they are averaging 260-280, which now covers 1/2 the
> entire PGA Tour. You have bought into the media overhype that everyone
> on tour bombs the ball on the carry.

> As a result, you have set up a course where only guys who fly it at
> least 250 or so can compete. Congratulations. You just effectively
> eliminated 1/2 the field.

 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by Don Porte » Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:14:33

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:57:07 GMT, "david s-a"

Quote:

>Corey Pavin....average drive for the US Open...239 yards!!

Which means he could hit driver-driver on several of the Bethpage
Black par 4 holes and still not reach the green.
 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by Kevin D. Tim » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:11:39

Quote:


> Although Rule 32 is titled "Bogey, Par and Stableford competitions", within the
> explanations for these formats there is no reference to 'par", but only to a
> "fixed score".

> Par is NOT a part of the RULES of golf. I have a USGA Handicap system and
> committee manual. This booklet DOES cover par and yardages for guidances. But
> it is not part of the rules.

> Wendy

Nor did I say that the RULES of golf defined par.  I just said that
there is a Par Competition in the RULES and so then what is Par?

Besides that, every announcer out there talks about the USGA
'protecting'
par.  How can they do that if there isn't such a thing as par?

--

KT

I took the RSG 2002 Pledge to not encourage trolls.

 
 
 

Excellent Stuff from Golf Channel Poster - Markwillia1

Post by dsc » Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:54:28


Quote:
> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:57:07 GMT, "david s-a"

> >Corey Pavin....average drive for the US Open...239 yards!!

That's almost unbelievable....

dsc