But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by Calimer » Wed, 03 May 2006 19:52:16


In 1995 they made a poll in several European countries (Denmark,
France, Germany, UK, Italy, Spain, Sweden) asking which tennis player
people think are nice persons. People could give marks from 1 to 10 for
each player.
Among female players the result was (average of all countries):

Graf 7,9
Sabatini 7,5
Seles 7,3
ASV 7,0
MN 6,9

France, Germany, UK  favoured Graf most, Denmark and Italy Sabatini,
Spain ASV and Sweden Navratilova.
Although Seles had just returned to the tour her marks were well below
Graf and Sabatini.

Maybe it was different in U.S.?
But why then U.S. media can't say "Graf was a champion who was not
loved by U.S. tennis fans because she beat up our favourite daughters"?
Why this hypocrisy?
Weird .....

Max

--
Seles - the nose-dive had already begun:
04/29/91-04/26/92: 76-5 w/l (93.8 %) - 16 sets lost (0.19/match)
04/27/92-04/25/93: 58-5 w/l (92.1 %) - 22 sets lost (0.35/match)

Graf - on the rise again:
04/29/91-04/26/92: 60-6 w/l (90.9 %) - 21 sets lost (0.32/match)
04/27/92-04/25/93: 80-7 w/l (92.0 %) - 27 sets lost (0.31/match)
04/26/93-04/24/94: 80-3 w/l (96.4 %) - 18 sets lost (0.22/match)

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by bob » Thu, 04 May 2006 08:58:20


Quote:
> In 1995 they made a poll in several European countries (Denmark,
> France, Germany, UK, Italy, Spain, Sweden) asking which tennis player
> people think are nice persons. People could give marks from 1 to 10 for
> each player.
> Among female players the result was (average of all countries):

> Graf 7,9
> Sabatini 7,5
> Seles 7,3
> ASV 7,0
> MN 6,9

> France, Germany, UK  favoured Graf most, Denmark and Italy Sabatini,
> Spain ASV and Sweden Navratilova.
> Although Seles had just returned to the tour her marks were well below
> Graf and Sabatini.

> Maybe it was different in U.S.?
> But why then U.S. media can't say "Graf was a champion who was not
> loved by U.S. tennis fans because she beat up our favourite daughters"?
> Why this hypocrisy?
> Weird .....

dumb post max..graf was always fan favorite in USA, higher than anyone but
evert, who was in process of retirement..nobody liked seles..a few felt
sorry for her after she returned from the stabbing and cheered her
outwardly, while still hoping she'd lose inwardly. end of story.

bob

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by John » Thu, 04 May 2006 12:19:31

you're BOTH worng.

first, Bob, US fans did not prefer Graf to Seles.

second, Max, the US media can't say what you want them to say because it
isn't true.  Graf wasn't disliked because she beat up on our supposed
"favourite daughters."  US fans liked Becker even though he beat our
"favourite sons."  it has a lot do with personality, and Graf was
basically a female version of Lendl in that department.

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by RAJA the real Empero » Thu, 04 May 2006 12:59:37

Quote:

> you're BOTH worng.

> first, Bob, US fans did not prefer Graf to Seles.

> second, Max, the US media can't say what you want them to say because it
> isn't true.  Graf wasn't disliked because she beat up on our supposed
> "favourite daughters."  US fans liked Becker even though he beat our
> "favourite sons."  it has a lot do with personality, and Graf was
> basically a female version of Lendl in that department.

Thats entirely true. Americans think introverts are arrogant. Its a
stupid logic but thats a fat. Both Lendfl and Graf were far from
arrogant.
 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by stephen » Thu, 04 May 2006 22:32:26

Quote:


> dumb post max..graf was always fan favorite in USA, higher than anyone but
> evert, who was in process of retirement..

what's baffling is why max continues to insist otherwise. every other
max denial of reality has an obvious pro-graf agenda behind it, but i
don't get this one. i don't get what hinges on him insisting that the
USA was or is anti-graf ... ?

--
"when i visited Aden before collectivization,
all the markets were full of fish product. After
collectivization, the fish immediately disappeared."

- Aleksandr Vassiliev, Soviet KGB official

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by Günter Parch » Thu, 04 May 2006 22:33:51

stephenj, are you Stephen Jaros?
Quote:



> > dumb post max..graf was always fan favorite in USA, higher than anyone but
> > evert, who was in process of retirement..

> what's baffling is why max continues to insist otherwise. every other
> max denial of reality has an obvious pro-graf agenda behind it, but i
> don't get this one. i don't get what hinges on him insisting that the
> USA was or is anti-graf ... ?

> --
> "when i visited Aden before collectivization,
> all the markets were full of fish product. After
> collectivization, the fish immediately disappeared."

> - Aleksandr Vassiliev, Soviet KGB official

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by Calimer » Fri, 05 May 2006 02:24:18

Quote:



> > dumb post max..graf was always fan favorite in USA, higher than anyone but
> > evert, who was in process of retirement..

Maybe Graf was "fan" favourite. My point is the U.S. media. Watch an
internet video clip recently about a "Graf tribute" on ESPN or so. The
commentator said "Graf was not a loved champion" trying to establish a
contrast between her and U.S. greats. ALL polls EVEN back in the 80ies
and early 90ies showed that Steffi was fan favourite all over the world
(only Sabatini - who isn't from the U.S. either - was more popular at
some places).
Steffi's problem was that she was no media *** as many U.S. champions
were/are. She didn't dance to the media's tunes all day long as
especially U.S. expect - even demand! - from sports stars. And the
media (esp. U.S. media) took revenge by dissing her.

Quote:
> what's baffling is why max continues to insist otherwise. every other
> max denial of reality has an obvious pro-graf agenda behind it, but i
> don't get this one. i don't get what hinges on him insisting that the
> USA was or is anti-graf ... ?

Not "the USA" but "US media".
The reason is very clear for me: Revenge for Graf's media shyness -
plus IMG influence. Many U.S. TV commentators or news reporters liked
to hop into bed with IMG high rollers. Add to that commentators like
Shriver and King who were Evertilova's best friends and the damage is
done ....

Max

--
88/89 Graf vs. 88/89 Navi: 4-0 H2H
91/93 Graf vs. 91/93 Navi: 1-2 H2H
91/93 Graf vs. 91/93 Seles: 3-2 H2H
88/89 Graf vs. 91/93 Seles: ????

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by stephen » Fri, 05 May 2006 05:55:17

Quote:




>>>dumb post max..graf was always fan favorite in USA, higher than anyone but
>>>evert, who was in process of retirement..

> Maybe Graf was "fan" favourite. My point is the U.S. media. Watch an
> internet video clip recently about a "Graf tribute" on ESPN or so.

there was a kind of awkward standoffishness, for lack of a better
phrase, in  graf's public persona. what was strange about it was that it
didn't come across as meanness or arrogance, rather it had an
unfathomable quality to it - one couldn't peg *what* underlying mindset
it reflected. kind of like sampras in that regard.

but it didn't create distance with fans or the US media. Graf was
uniformly praised in the US media, though of course she was never
'loved' by it the way chris evert was.

btw, there was only one US media darling - chris evert. all other US
players were carefully scrutinized, etc.

--
Fr?ulein Forehand, undone by Seles's ability to hit winners fore and aft at
the German Open, was espied at Roland Garros using a two-fisted backhand,
presumably to keep up in the arms race. In the head war between the
two young women, Seles may have won the final then and there.

- Sports Illustrated, May 1990

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by bob » Fri, 05 May 2006 07:14:46


Quote:




>>>>dumb post max..graf was always fan favorite in USA, higher than anyone
>>>>but
>>>>evert, who was in process of retirement..

>> Maybe Graf was "fan" favourite. My point is the U.S. media. Watch an
>> internet video clip recently about a "Graf tribute" on ESPN or so.

> there was a kind of awkward standoffishness, for lack of a better phrase,
> in  graf's public persona. what was strange about it was that it didn't
> come across as meanness or arrogance, rather it had an unfathomable
> quality to it - one couldn't peg *what* underlying mindset it reflected.
> kind of like sampras in that regard.

like abdul jabbar..and abdul jabbar WAS crucified in the press all his
life..if anyone had a gripe it's him.

Quote:
> but it didn't create distance with fans or the US media. Graf was
> uniformly praised in the US media, though of course she was never 'loved'
> by it the way chris evert was.
> btw, there was only one US media darling - chris evert. all other US
> players were carefully scrutinized, etc.

yep..disgusting to love evert like that.

bob

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by bob » Fri, 05 May 2006 07:16:21


Quote:
> you're BOTH worng.

> first, Bob, US fans did not prefer Graf to Seles.

? um, not a chance..but i admit that when seles returned from the stabbing
she was given some sort of obligatory cheers..

Quote:
> second, Max, the US media can't say what you want them to say because it
> isn't true.  Graf wasn't disliked because she beat up on our supposed
> "favourite daughters."  US fans liked Becker even though he beat our
> "favourite sons."  it has a lot do with personality, and Graf was
> basically a female version of Lendl in that department.

lendl? c'mon now.

bob

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by bob » Fri, 05 May 2006 07:07:34


Quote:


>> dumb post max..graf was always fan favorite in USA, higher than anyone
>> but evert, who was in process of retirement..

> what's baffling is why max continues to insist otherwise.

because amy cottrell keeps telling him this malarchy, believing some sort of
persecution complex or similar..

Quote:
> every other max denial of reality has an obvious pro-graf agenda behind
> it, but i don't get this one. i don't get what hinges on him insisting
> that the USA was or is anti-graf ... ?

he doesn't really know..and it's not true..he's parroting someone else, i'd
bet a buck...

bob

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by bob » Fri, 05 May 2006 07:13:14


Quote:




>> > dumb post max..graf was always fan favorite in USA, higher than anyone
>> > but
>> > evert, who was in process of retirement..

> Maybe Graf was "fan" favourite. My point is the U.S. media. Watch an
> internet video clip recently about a "Graf tribute" on ESPN or so. The
> commentator said "Graf was not a loved champion" trying to establish a
> contrast between her and U.S. greats.

who was the commentator? and pay no attention to those silly "tribute"
shows, they're all full of crap..i've watched many and none of them were
even close to the reality of the day..

Quote:
> ALL polls EVEN back in the 80ies
> and early 90ies showed that Steffi was fan favourite all over the world
> (only Sabatini - who isn't from the U.S. either - was more popular at
> some places).

sabatini was popular..but she wasn't around that long..graf was popular
everywhere in USA..i NEVER heard her booed, never watched a match where she
wasn't clear crowd favorite..

Quote:
> Steffi's problem was that she was no media *** as many U.S. champions
> were/are. She didn't dance to the media's tunes all day long as
> especially U.S. expect - even demand! - from sports stars. And the
> media (esp. U.S. media) took revenge by dissing her.

i read USA news, i never read anti-graf bias..never..and if i had, i
would've remembered as it would've annoyed me..

Quote:
>> what's baffling is why max continues to insist otherwise. every other
>> max denial of reality has an obvious pro-graf agenda behind it, but i
>> don't get this one. i don't get what hinges on him insisting that the
>> USA was or is anti-graf ... ?

> Not "the USA" but "US media".
> The reason is very clear for me: Revenge for Graf's media shyness -
> plus IMG influence. Many U.S. TV commentators or news reporters liked
> to hop into bed with IMG high rollers. Add to that commentators like
> Shriver and King who were Evertilova's best friends and the damage is
> done..

fine, if you feel that graf wasn't fairly treated in the media, go ahead and
believe it..but i never got that feeling..of course if you expected her to
be in USA the same national hero she was in germany, then you're on another
topic.................

bob

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by David Whit » Fri, 05 May 2006 08:39:40


Quote:

>> you're BOTH worng.

>> first, Bob, US fans did not prefer Graf to Seles.

>> second, Max, the US media can't say what you want them to say
>> because it isn't true.  Graf wasn't disliked because she beat up on
>> our supposed "favourite daughters."  US fans liked Becker even
>> though he beat our "favourite sons."  it has a lot do with
>> personality, and Graf was basically a female version of Lendl in
>> that department.

I don't think so, unless viewers were quite stupid in interpreting what they saw. Graf was
shy. It was so obvious that she didn't feel comfortable speaking in public or releasing
emotion on the court, or behaving in any extroverted way. OTOH, Lendl appeared (but may
not have been) more aloof than shy.

David

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by stephen » Fri, 05 May 2006 08:56:09

Quote:





>>>dumb post max..graf was always fan favorite in USA, higher than anyone
>>>but evert, who was in process of retirement..

>>what's baffling is why max continues to insist otherwise.

> because amy cottrell keeps telling him this malarchy, believing some sort of
> persecution complex or similar..

>>every other max denial of reality has an obvious pro-graf agenda behind
>>it, but i don't get this one. i don't get what hinges on him insisting
>>that the USA was or is anti-graf ... ?

> he doesn't really know..and it's not true..he's parroting someone else, i'd
> bet a buck...

Ok.

--
"when i visited Aden before collectivization,
all the markets were full of fish product. After
collectivization, the fish immediately disappeared."

- Aleksandr Vassiliev, Soviet KGB official

 
 
 

But U.S. propaganda says "Graf not loved by fans" ......

Post by Calimer » Sat, 06 May 2006 02:26:25

Quote:






> >> > dumb post max..graf was always fan favorite in USA, higher than anyone
> >> > but
> >> > evert, who was in process of retirement..

> > Maybe Graf was "fan" favourite. My point is the U.S. media. Watch an
> > internet video clip recently about a "Graf tribute" on ESPN or so. The
> > commentator said "Graf was not a loved champion" trying to establish a
> > contrast between her and U.S. greats.

> who was the commentator? and pay no attention to those silly "tribute"
> shows, they're all full of crap..i've watched many and none of them were
> even close to the reality of the day..

I have watched many in Germany, some in the U.K.; a friend of mine
often has watched tennis (and "tributes") in France (she lived there
for many years).
The quote from this ESPN show and a man like Deford calling Graf "the
most overrated tennis player ever" could only come from the U.S. It
would be unthinkable in Europe and, IMO, in Asia.

Quote:
> > ALL polls EVEN back in the 80ies
> > and early 90ies showed that Steffi was fan favourite all over the world
> > (only Sabatini - who isn't from the U.S. either - was more popular at
> > some places).

> sabatini was popular..but she wasn't around that long..graf was popular
> everywhere in USA..i NEVER heard her booed, never watched a match where she
> wasn't clear crowd favorite..

But nevertheless some U.S. media repeat again and again that Graf
allegedly was not loved by tennis fans for most of her career.

Quote:
> > Steffi's problem was that she was no media *** as many U.S. champions
> > were/are. She didn't dance to the media's tunes all day long as
> > especially U.S. expect - even demand! - from sports stars. And the
> > media (esp. U.S. media) took revenge by dissing her.

> i read USA news, i never read anti-graf bias..never..and if i had, i
> would've remembered as it would've annoyed me..

It is a recurring theme in many U.S. articles etc. that Graf "was not
liked very much by tennis fans until the mid-90ies".

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> >> what's baffling is why max continues to insist otherwise. every other
> >> max denial of reality has an obvious pro-graf agenda behind it, but i
> >> don't get this one. i don't get what hinges on him insisting that the
> >> USA was or is anti-graf ... ?

> > Not "the USA" but "US media".
> > The reason is very clear for me: Revenge for Graf's media shyness -
> > plus IMG influence. Many U.S. TV commentators or news reporters liked
> > to hop into bed with IMG high rollers. Add to that commentators like
> > Shriver and King who were Evertilova's best friends and the damage is
> > done..

> fine, if you feel that graf wasn't fairly treated in the media, go ahead and
> believe it..but i never got that feeling..of course if you expected her to
> be in USA the same national hero she was in germany, then you're on another
> topic.................

I compare U.S. media with media all around the world. It is almost
ALWAYS U.S. media who tell people that allegedly "Graf was not a
popular champion" for most of her career. It is a fact and you can't
deny it.
And it doesn't trouble me very much because the reason is plain to see
- promoting U.S. players. The "Seles was on her way to be the best
ever" myth is mainly a U.S. phenomenon. Why? Seles, a U.S. player is
elevated, but even more important is that Evertilova get a shot at the
GOAT title because after all "Graf profited bigtime by The Stabbing".

The same with fans - most of the Graf haters in internet forums are
from the U.S. - a fact.

Quote:
> bob

Funny that you try to deny all this .....

Max

--
"Personally, i'd rather have MN's two extra Wimbledons than Graf's 4
extra FOs, 1 extra USO and 1 extra AO."
(Steve Jaros supporting the idea that Graf's Wimbledon wins in 91/92
more than equal Seles 3 slam wins in each of those years, r.s.t.,
February 21, 2006)