Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by Mikko ?mm?l » Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:30:00




Quote:

> >Since 1985 (start of the high-tech racket era), Pete's form is the best
i've
> >seen on grass (by a huge margin over #2 Becker), on concrete (by a solid
> >margin over #2 Andre and Lendl), and indoors (by a slim margin over #2
> >Becker). On clay it isn't top 20.

> I disagree...Sampras French Open quarterfinal appearances, semifinal
> appearance, and his Italian Open title merit consideration for top
> 20 since 1985 (interesting starting point).

Reasonable. 1985 is a great starting point (modern era starts there)

Since then on clay:

1) Kuerten - obvious
2) Lendl - also easy choice
3) Wilander - close to lendl
4) Courier - might be put even 2nd by some
5)  Bruguera - very close to above three
6) Muster - on FO more then he would be 2nd
7) Agassi
8) Moya
9) Medvedev - his record at clay supernines at 90:s are superb, FO final and
SF to boot
10) Corretja - Equal to Medvedev
11) Gomez - Without Lendl he would have may be one more FO (he run at Lendl
at FO like YKaf to Kuerten)
12) Kafelnikov - Equal to Gomez but no supernine success and has bad losing
streaks
13) Chang - FO win, FO final and nothing more
14) Rios - Anything else but GS succee
15) Berasateqio - FO final and dozen+ clay titles
16) Stich - FO final, semi, some titles, supernine.
17) Edberg - FO final, some titles, supernine
18) Becker - 3 FO semis, 5 supernine finals, NO titles at all, great clay
record at Davis Cup)
19) SAMPRAS - FO semi + qf:s + some titles - could be put ahead Becker
20) Mantilla, Leconte, Mecir, Korda, Norman, Safin, Mancini, Kent
Carlsson....

Did I miss any?

.mikko

--

/* reality is an illusion that occurs
due to the lack of *** */

 
 
 

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by jo » Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:34:46


Quote:




> > >Since 1985 (start of the high-tech racket era), Pete's form is the best
> i've
> > >seen on grass (by a huge margin over #2 Becker), on concrete (by a
solid
> > >margin over #2 Andre and Lendl), and indoors (by a slim margin over #2
> > >Becker). On clay it isn't top 20.

> > I disagree...Sampras French Open quarterfinal appearances, semifinal
> > appearance, and his Italian Open title merit consideration for top
> > 20 since 1985 (interesting starting point).

> Reasonable. 1985 is a great starting point (modern era starts there)

> Since then on clay:

> 1) Kuerten - obvious
> 2) Lendl - also easy choice
> 3) Wilander - close to lendl

I would put both Lendl and Wilander slightly above Kuerten at this stage,
both Lendl and Wilander have 3 French Open titles and runner ups in French
a few times. Kuerten is definitely capable of winning more at French Open
and
should win at least one more to overtake both Lendl and Wilander.
Quote:
> 4) Courier - might be put even 2nd by some

Good clay court player but not really in the class of the above 3.
Quote:
> 5)  Bruguera - very close to above three

Close to Courier and some way behind the top 3.
Quote:
> 6) Muster - on FO more then he would be 2nd

Need at least 2 more FO to rank 2nd.
Quote:
> 7) Agassi

His French Open result should have him ranked higher than Muster as I
remember Muster won
most of his major clay court title in 95.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> 8) Moya
> 9) Medvedev - his record at clay supernines at 90:s are superb, FO final
and
> SF to boot
> 10) Corretja - Equal to Medvedev
> 11) Gomez - Without Lendl he would have may be one more FO (he run at
Lendl
> at FO like YKaf to Kuerten)
> 12) Kafelnikov - Equal to Gomez but no supernine success and has bad
losing
> streaks
> 13) Chang - FO win, FO final and nothing more
> 14) Rios - Anything else but GS succee
> 15) Berasateqio - FO final and dozen+ clay titles
> 16) Stich - FO final, semi, some titles, supernine.
> 17) Edberg - FO final, some titles, supernine
> 18) Becker - 3 FO semis, 5 supernine finals, NO titles at all, great clay
> record at Davis Cup)
> 19) SAMPRAS - FO semi + qf:s + some titles - could be put ahead Becker
> 20) Mantilla, Leconte, Mecir, Korda, Norman, Safin, Mancini, Kent

Norman could be put ahead of Sampras, he won some titles on clay, Final in
the French, won
a super 9 event.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> Carlsson....

> Did I miss any?

> .mikko

> --

> /* reality is an illusion that occurs
> due to the lack of *** */


 
 
 

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by Mikko ?mm?l » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 00:17:49



Quote:
> > Reasonable. 1985 is a great starting point (modern era starts there)

> > Since then on clay:

> > 1) Kuerten - obvious
> > 2) Lendl - also easy choice
> > 3) Wilander - close to lendl
> I would put both Lendl and Wilander slightly above Kuerten at this stage,
> both Lendl and Wilander have 3 French Open titles and runner ups in French
> a few times. Kuerten is definitely capable of winning more at French Open
> and
> should win at least one more to overtake both Lendl and Wilander.

   Remember this is list from 85 upwards. This excludes Lendl's 84 FO win
and Wilander's 82 Win and 83 final. However even if you add these pre-modern
era results, it is a toss up which allows personal biases to arrange the top
three...I put Kuerten #1 because amount of great claycourters he has faced
at FO during his title routes (97 alone: Muster, Medvedev, Kafelnikov,
Bruguera...)

Quote:
> > 4) Courier - might be put even 2nd by some
> Good clay court player but not really in the class of the above 3.

  At his best he was extremely *** AND he stopped both Agassi and
Muster at FO several times at latter stages...with further thinking the cap
is more clear to top three...

Quote:
> > 5)  Bruguera - very close to above three
> Close to Courier and some way behind the top 3.
> > 6) Muster - on FO more then he would be 2nd
> Need at least 2 more FO to rank 2nd.

 Muster gets credit for his unbeliavable amount of titles won as well...

Quote:
> > 7) Agassi
> His French Open result should have him ranked higher than Muster as I
> remember Muster won
> most of his major clay court title in 95.

 Muster got his early supernines earlier and was almost as *** on clay
96 (two supernines) but happened to meet inspired Stich at 4th round...

Quote:
> > 8) Moya
> > 9) Medvedev - his record at clay supernines at 90:s are superb, FO final
> and
> > SF to boot
> > 10) Corretja - Equal to Medvedev
> > 11) Gomez - Without Lendl he would have may be one more FO (he run at
> Lendl
> > at FO like YKaf to Kuerten)
> > 12) Kafelnikov - Equal to Gomez but no supernine success and has bad
> losing
> > streaks
> > 13) Chang - FO win, FO final and nothing more
> > 14) Rios - Anything else but GS succee
> > 15) Berasateqio - FO final and dozen+ clay titles
> > 16) Stich - FO final, semi, some titles, supernine.
> > 17) Edberg - FO final, some titles, supernine
> > 18) Becker - 3 FO semis, 5 supernine finals, NO titles at all, great
clay
> > record at Davis Cup)
> > 19) SAMPRAS - FO semi + qf:s + some titles - could be put ahead Becker
> > 20) Mantilla, Leconte, Mecir, Korda, Norman, Safin, Mancini, Kent
> Norman could be put ahead of Sampras, he won some titles on clay, Final in
> the French, won
> a super 9 event.

   ...too bad he only had one good year, all these above names have had some
continuum over the years, Norman had only year 2000. Matter of taste and IF
you move Norman ahead, Sampras is in great danger not to be among the top20
claycourters since 85....;)

--

 .mikko

/* reality is an illusion, that occurs
    due to the lack of *** */

 
 
 

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by Mikko ?mm?l » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 02:06:23



Quote:
> > > 16) Stich - FO final, semi, some titles, supernine.
> > > 17) Edberg - FO final, some titles, supernine
> > > 18) Becker - 3 FO semis, 5 supernine finals, NO titles at all, great
> clay
> > > record at Davis Cup)
> > > 19) SAMPRAS - FO semi + qf:s + some titles - could be put ahead Becker
> > > 20) Mantilla, Leconte, Mecir, Korda, Norman, Safin, Mancini, Kent

> > Norman could be put ahead of Sampras, he won some titles on clay, Final
in
> > the French, won
> > a super 9 event.

>    ...too bad he only had one good year, all these above names have had
some
> continuum over the years, Norman had only year 2000. Matter of taste and
IF
> you move Norman ahead, Sampras is in great danger not to be among the
top20
> claycourters since 85....;)

Hmm...Leconte has also two semis in addition to his FO final 88, that could
lift him to may be #17...

--

 .mikko

/* reality is an illusion, that occurs
    due to the lack of *** */

 
 
 

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by Dudewa » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 02:55:54

You're forgetting this year's FO champ and Alberto Costa, DEF ahead of Sampras
on clay, and also Felix Mantilla.
 
 
 

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by Dudewa » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 03:06:26

Also, I believe Bruguera should be ahead of Courier as he's been in a French
semi, French finals, two time French champion.  Furthemore, he is the one who
dethroned Courier, and looking back at the tape of the match, he had Courier at
his mercy except for inexperience level and decidedly worse fitness.  He had a
TON of break point chances against Courier, and when he was fresh in the first
set (it was scorching hot that day), he was *clearly* outhitting Courier and
had a heckuva lot more *natural* speed...not just hustle.  Basically, what I'm
saying is that Bruguera at his best on clay is better than Courier at his best
on clay.  The year Bruguera beat Courier, he just annihilated the competition
leading up to the finals, whereas Courier had several tough matches.  The scary
thing is, Bruguera wasn't at his peak form yet, he was still inexperienced and
in crummy cardiovascular shape (for a French Open champion that is).  

Also, you have to take into account that Bruguera made the semis of the French
coming off major ankle or knee surgery, and he made the finals of the French
coming off major knee surgery.  The year he lost to Sampras in the first round
of a five set thriller was because he was *just* coming back from surgery to
either his knee or ankle, I forget; because of this he wasn't in shape, had no
match play, and it is the match he lists as the most frustrating of his career
because he had so many opportunities to win the match but was rusty
(obviously).  What Bruguera accomplished given his serious and chronic injury
problems, puts him ahead of Courier on clay, for me that is.  

 
 
 

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by Mikko ?mm?l » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 03:06:39



Quote:
> You're forgetting this year's FO champ and Alberto Costa, DEF ahead of
Sampras
> on clay, and also Felix Mantilla.

How could I forget Costa. I mentioned Mantilla though...so OFFICIALLY. Pete
Sampras is not even top20 on clay since 1985...(as Leconte passed him and
Costa was totally forgotten...)

* revised quote starts *

Since 1985 on clay:

1) Kuerten - obvious
2) Lendl - also easy choice
3) Wilander - close to lendl
4) Courier - might be put even 2nd by some
5)  Bruguera - very close to above three
6) Muster - on FO more then he would be 2nd
7) Agassi
8) Moya
9) A.Costa // I totally forgot him...sorry
10) Medvedev - his record at clay supernines at 90:s are superb, FO final
and
SF to boot
11) Corretja - Equal to Medvedev
12) Gomez - Without Lendl he would have may be one more FO (he run at Lendl
at FO like YKaf to Kuerten)
13) Kafelnikov - Equal to Gomez but no supernine success and has bad losing
streaks
14) Chang - FO win, FO final and nothing more
15) Rios - Anything else but GS succee
16) Berasateqio - FO final and dozen+ clay titles
17) Stich - FO final, semi, some titles, supernine.
18) Leconte - FO final, two semis...   // I forgot he also has those
semis....
19) Edberg - FO final, some titles, supernine
20) Becker - 3 FO semis, 5 supernine finals, NO titles at all, great clay
record at Davis Cup)
21) SAMPRAS - FO semi + qf:s + some titles - could be put ahead Becker
22) Mantilla, Leconte, Mecir, Korda, Norman, Safin, Mancini, Kent
Carlsson....

--

 .mikko

/* reality is an illusion, that occurs
    due to the lack of *** */

 
 
 

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by Donal Faga » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 03:14:34

Anyone else getting new messages that are "no longer available?"  I
just got that with two Dudewaba messages and yesterday had several, at
least one of which was Mikko.

Donal Fagan AIA

(Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

 
 
 

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by Mikko ?mm?l » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 03:47:18



Quote:
> Also, I believe Bruguera should be ahead of Courier as he's been in a
French
> semi, French finals, two time French champion.  Furthemore, he is the one
who
> dethroned Courier, and looking back at the tape of the match, he had
Courier at
> his mercy except for inexperience level and decidedly worse fitness

With pure achievement it is definitely reasonable to put Bruguera ahead
Courier...BUT

a) Courier changed the claycourt game. He was the first player to succesful
adapt the strategy of "run around your backhand, hit huge inside-out
forehand"...(Mancini never made it at FO) -> new breed with same kind of
strategy emerged later (Berasatequi, Moya)

b) Bruguera had extremely miserable time with Muster...there was 5 year
patch during nineties when both were at their prime and Bruguera never beat
Muster...(final head to head 12-3 to Muster, Muster winning their last 9
meetings from 92...)

Quote:
> (obviously).  What Bruguera accomplished given his serious and chronic
injury
> problems, puts him ahead of Courier on clay, for me that..

They are close...
--

 .mikko

/* reality is an illusion, that occurs
    due to the lack of *** */

 
 
 

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by Steve Jaro » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 05:58:47


Quote:

>    ...too bad he only had one good year, all these above names have had
some
> continuum over the years, Norman had only year 2000. Matter of taste and
IF
> you move Norman ahead, Sampras is in great danger not to be among the
top20
> claycourters since 85....;)

Well boo hoo hoo... if the facts keep him out, then the facts keep him
out... :)
 
 
 

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by Dudewa » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 08:43:42

Quote:
>5
>From: "Mikko ?mm?l?"
>b) Bruguera had extremely miserable time with Muster...there was 5 year
>patch during nineties when both were at their prime and Bruguera never beat
>Muster...(final head to head 12-3 to Muster, Muster winning their last 9
>meetings from 92...)

Yes, just a matter of perspective I suppose.  But for me, the only true measure
are the grand slams.  I have a tape of the Lipton final between Bruguera and
Muster, and I think it's *clear* from watching that that Bruguera had more
talent.  Muster, however, definitely had a psyche edge over Bruguera.  Bruguera
should have won the first set but Muster kept on chasing down his overheads in
the tiebreak, and Bruguera just tanked the point finally because Muster's will
won out.  After that, the next set Bruguera virtually tanked...except when
Muster was serving for the second set, then all of a sudden Bruguera decided to
turn it "on" again after 30 all, and he played truly inspired tennis in an epic
game but Muster barely managed to squeak through anyway after Bruguera missed a
routine forehand like he had never missed one before...hit it straight into the
ground believe it or not, was a funny moment which made Bruguera laugh, and
after that he had no more spunk/effort left which allowed Muster to close the
game with no resistance at all from Bruguera on the next point).  After that,
*zero* effort from Bruguera, mentally deflated, no interest in running for
balls that he could easily reach, he dumped sitter volleys five feet long, just
tanked plain and simple.  

In summary, I believe that Muster's bullish on-court persona is exactly the
type that would hinder Sergi's fragile pysche.  Bruguera was NOT that strong
mentally (VERY Cedric Pioline like...only difference being that Pioline never
quite brokethrough for a slam), although, generally, the public *perception* is
that he was because of his success at the French Open--allegedly the most
grueling of all slams.  The reality, however, is that even in his finest hour
he randomly oscillated between *IN* and *OUT* mode, mentally and physically,
during matches.  Like against Berastagui in the French final, he was dominating
him and it was clear that whenever he decided to stop moping around and turn on
the light switch so to speak, Berasategui was *clearly* overmatched.  The third
set of that match, Bruguera was mentally and physically in and out of it,
endurance definitely was not his strength...I guess you could call him the
Sampras of clay in that respect...and that allowed Berasategui to take the set.
 At this point it looks bleak for Bruguera and the McEnroe and Bud are going
oh-oh; he has a limp, hang dog expression on his face, he's barely giving any
effort whatsoever, looks like he's going to collapse; and then with Berasategui
serving to start the set, *halfway* (you'd think he'd start giving effort from
the beginning) through the game, Bruguera, out of nowhere, comes ALIVE playing
some *explosive* tennis to break Berasategui right off the bat.  Dick Enberg's
words, "Bruguera maybe playing a little possum here."  Then Mcenroe, "I think
you're right***, Bruguera saving a little energy for when he really needs
it."  After that, it was *all* Bruguera; Bruguera started ripping from the back
of the court, and dominated Berasategui to runaway with the match.  Note, we're
talking about the finals of the French Open here, and Bruguera's pulling these
kind of IN and OUT stunts.  This kind of moping style of play is a death trap
when you play someone of Muster's incomparable killer instinct...really reminds
me of a lion going in for the kill.  Berasategui, on the other hand, killer
speed and forehand...but still just Bambi.  This is why I feel that the
lopsided head-to-head between Bruguera and Muster isn't truly indicative of who
has the most claycourt ability.  I feel rather that it indicates a personality
mismatch.  Finally, note that Courier *owned* Bruguera prior to the French
final.  So everyone assumed that the same would happen in the final, in spite
of the fact that Bruguera had clearly been the most *** player all
tournament.  Yet, it was a totally different Bruguera that showed up.  This
Bruguera clearly had more game than Courier, but Bud and McEnroe still favored
Courier after he got blown off the court in the first set (the score looks a
lot closer than it really was...Bruguera had an INSANE number of break chances
throughout the match).  Why?  Because Courier possessed the Muster-like
intangibles of superior fitness (it was over 100 degrees on court that day),
bulldog persona, intimidating never-say-die attitude, unequalled mental
toughness, etc.  As the match went on, it certainly looked like McEnroe and Bud
were right.  Bud's words: "Bruguera looks like he's dying out there!"  Then
McEnroe and Bud pointed out Bruguera's poor five-set record, his tanking
history, his *pathetic* performance in the last Davis Cup tie which caused the
Spanish press to *fry* him, etc.  Yet, when it really counted, down a break in
the fifth and looking physically and emotionally exhausted, Bruguera found a
way to dig deep against Courier--the rock...who still looked fresh as a daisy.
In an old article on Bruguera, it was said that he was always perceived as
being delicate, mentally fragile, weak, etc. (the Sanchez brothers beat up on
him for these perceived qualities...the two families mortal enemies); but then
they said to those who *really* know him..."When the going gets tough, Sergi
can get tough."  See, it's all a matter of perception for Bruguera.  When is it
necessary to get TOUGH?  The former ATP tour psychologist Roland Carlstedt
remarked that Bruguera "has always been a *half-assed* player--sometimes very
motivated and sometimes not."  I've seen Bruguera give a half-hearted effort in
many matches...even those that count, his last Master's Series championships,
for example, (started off dominating Chang, and then for some reason just went
into that "half-assed" mode again...after that he tanked his next match, and
then withdrew from the tournament because of shoulder problems...which
eventually led to what was supposed to be career-ending surgery), those skew
what his true ability was when he was *truly* fired up.  So what I'm saying is
that it would be logical that Bruguera would be mentally dominated by a player
with a persona such as Muster's.  *However*, had they met in a French Open
final in their prime; I would have put my money on Bruguera for everything I
have just elaborated upon.  

Also, Bruguera was a guy who never really seemed to play with the famous
passion he showed in his classic Bruguera-Courier final except at the French
Open.  These were Vilas' words in a French Open preview he wrote many years
ago.  

Thus, if you place the ultimate value measure on the actual French Open itself,
I say Bruguera is better than Muster on clay and slightly better than Courier.

 
 
 

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by Whispe » Sun, 22 Sep 2002 10:20:50


Quote:


> > > Reasonable. 1985 is a great starting point (modern era starts there)

> > > Since then on clay:

> > > 1) Kuerten - obvious
> > > 2) Lendl - also easy choice
> > > 3) Wilander - close to lendl
> > I would put both Lendl and Wilander slightly above Kuerten at this
stage,
> > both Lendl and Wilander have 3 French Open titles and runner ups in
French
> > a few times. Kuerten is definitely capable of winning more at French
Open
> > and
> > should win at least one more to overtake both Lendl and Wilander.

>    Remember this is list from 85 upwards. This excludes Lendl's 84 FO win
> and Wilander's 82 Win and 83 final. However even if you add these
pre-modern
> era results, it is a toss up which allows personal biases to arrange the
top
> three...I put Kuerten #1 because amount of great claycourters he has faced
> at FO during his title routes (97 alone: Muster, Medvedev, Kafelnikov,
> Bruguera...)

Muster & Bruguera mustn't be any good as Sampras beat them both at the
French.

Quote:
> > > 4) Courier - might be put even 2nd by some
> > Good clay court player but not really in the class of the above 3.

Agree.  Sampras beat him at FO too....

- Show quoted text -

 
 
 

Sampras on clay, top 20 on clay since 1985

Post by Mikko ?mm?l » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 18:30:07

...my so far last comment to my own list...

Juan Carlos Ferrero. FO final, FO semi, Supernine titles...vaults ahead Rios
to #15.

Bye bye Pete. You have hard time to be amond top25 on clay since 1985...;)

Ivanisevits might be also in top25 (3 qf:s at FO, some titles)

.mikko

"> * revised quote starts *

Quote:

> Since 1985 on clay:

> 1) Kuerten - obvious
> 2) Lendl - also easy choice
> 3) Wilander - close to lendl
> 4) Courier - might be put even 2nd by some
> 5)  Bruguera - very close to above three
> 6) Muster - on FO more then he would be 2nd
> 7) Agassi
> 8) Moya
> 9) A.Costa // I totally forgot him...sorry
> 10) Medvedev - his record at clay supernines at 90:s are superb, FO final
> and
> SF to boot
> 11) Corretja - Equal to Medvedev
> 12) Gomez - Without Lendl he would have may be one more FO (he run at
Lendl
> at FO like YKaf to Kuerten)
> 13) Kafelnikov - Equal to Gomez but no supernine success and has bad
losing
> streaks
> 14) Chang - FO win, FO final and nothing more
> 15) Rios - Anything else but GS succee
> 16) Berasateqio - FO final and dozen+ clay titles
> 17) Stich - FO final, semi, some titles, supernine.
> 18) Leconte - FO final, two semis...   // I forgot he also has those
> semis....
> 19) Edberg - FO final, some titles, supernine
> 20) Becker - 3 FO semis, 5 supernine finals, NO titles at all, great clay
> record at Davis Cup)
> 21) SAMPRAS - FO semi + qf:s + some titles - could be put ahead Becker
> 22) Mantilla, Leconte, Mecir, Korda, Norman, Safin, Mancini, Kent
> Carlsson....

> --

>  .mikko

> /* reality is an illusion, that occurs
>     due to the lack of *** */