Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by Robbi » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:10:55


The answer is NO

1989 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) S S. GRAF 6-3 3-6 6-3
1989 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) R16 S. GRAF 6-0 6-1
1989 BRIGHTON CARPET (I) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-4
1990 BERLIN-GERMAN OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 6-4 6-3
1990 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 7-6(6) 6-4
___________________________________________________
                Seles period of domination

1991 US HARDCOURTS HARD (O) F S. GRAF 6-4 6-3
1991 CITIZEN CUP CLAY (O) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-7(4) 6-3
1992 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 6-2 3-6 10-8
1992 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) F S. GRAF 6-2 6-1 2/2
1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) F M. SELES 4-6 6-3 6-2

             Graf led 3-2
___________________________________________________
1995 US OPEN HARD (O) F S. GRAF 7-6(6) 0-6 6-3
1996 US OPEN HARD (O) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-4
1998 CHASE CHAMPIONSHIPS CARPET (I) Q S. GRAF 1-6 6-4 6-4
1999 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) Q M. SELES 7-5 6-1 8
1999 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) S S. GRAF 6-7(2) 6-3 6-4

 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by nsalzb.. » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 09:28:23

*sigh* such pointless trolling....  you're talking largely about
hypotheticals.  seles was stabbed, graf had family issues, the soviet
union collapsed, the lady from Lifecall fell and couldn't get up ...it
was all a long time ago.  time to move on.

FWIW, in my mind in that of a lot of others, seles clearly dominated in
the period between RG 1990 and AO 1993.  take away the freak surface of
grass, and you'll see that is true.  graf was better in the mid90s, and
they were about even when graf retired in 99 form-wise (watch the 99AO
QF and 99RG SF and you'll see).

but really, what is the point of settling these useless debates when
everyone has an *opinion* they can legitemately justify using selective
evidence? .let it die, already

 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by Cortad » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:25:58


Quote:
> ...  take away the freak surface of grass, and you'll see that is true.

Right, Wimbledon, the most prestigious event, we'll just throw that right
out.

Quote:
> but really, what is the point of settling these useless debates when
> everyone has an *opinion* they can legitemately justify using selective

evidence?

By erasing W, you certainly demonstrate your point about selective evidence.
However, it ought to be possible to determine objectively if Graf was
under-performing against the field during the period in question. And not
just against Seles. An Elo rating as used in chess might shed some light on
this. Especially if plotted over Graf's entire career.

 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by Ram » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:39:25

Quote:



> > ...  take away the freak surface of grass, and you'll see that is
true.

> Right, Wimbledon, the most prestigious event, we'll just throw that
right
> out.

LOL

Quote:
> > but really, what is the point of settling these useless debates
when
> > everyone has an *opinion* they can legitemately justify using
selective
> evidence?

> By erasing W, you certainly demonstrate your point about selective
evidence.
> However, it ought to be possible to determine objectively if Graf was
> under-performing against the field during the period in question. And
not
> just against Seles. An Elo rating as used in chess might shed some
light on
> this. Especially if plotted over Graf's entire career.

 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by quick_ic » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:33:28

Neither had dominated the other. This is the most interrupted great rivalry
in women's tennis.


Quote:
> The answer is NO

> 1989 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) S S. GRAF 6-3 3-6 6-3
> 1989 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) R16 S. GRAF 6-0 6-1
> 1989 BRIGHTON CARPET (I) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-4
> 1990 BERLIN-GERMAN OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 6-4 6-3
> 1990 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 7-6(6) 6-4
> ___________________________________________________
>                 Seles period of domination

> 1991 US HARDCOURTS HARD (O) F S. GRAF 6-4 6-3
> 1991 CITIZEN CUP CLAY (O) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-7(4) 6-3
> 1992 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 6-2 3-6 10-8
> 1992 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) F S. GRAF 6-2 6-1 2/2
> 1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) F M. SELES 4-6 6-3 6-2

>              Graf led 3-2
> ___________________________________________________
> 1995 US OPEN HARD (O) F S. GRAF 7-6(6) 0-6 6-3
> 1996 US OPEN HARD (O) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-4
> 1998 CHASE CHAMPIONSHIPS CARPET (I) Q S. GRAF 1-6 6-4 6-4
> 1999 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) Q M. SELES 7-5 6-1 8
> 1999 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) S S. GRAF 6-7(2) 6-3 6-4

 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by Lloy » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:37:21

Quote:

> However, it ought to be possible to determine objectively if Graf was
> under-performing against the field during the period in question. And not
> just against Seles. An Elo rating as used in chess might shed some light
on
> this. Especially if plotted over Graf's entire career.

I already did so a couple of years back. Will find the posts and repost
them, if you like.
 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by Stephen » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:46:47

Quote:
> By erasing W, you certainly demonstrate your point about selective

evidence.

Graf was better than Seles at W, Seles was better everywhere else.

Quote:
> However, it ought to be possible to determine objectively if Graf was
> under-performing against the field during the period in question. And not
> just against Seles.

Not sure what you can accomplish with that, because even if Graf "slumped"
vs. the field from 90-93, we don't know the cause of that. If she did, the
obvious cause would be a loss of confidence due to realizing that Seles was
better...

--
I do not think the United States would come to an end if
 we lost our power to declare an Act of Congress void. I do
 think the Union would be imperiled if we could not make
 that declaration as to the laws of the several States.

- Oliver Wendell Holmes, on the SCOTUS

 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by Robbi » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:49:20

Quote:

> Neither had dominated the other. This is the most interrupted great
rivalry
> in women's tennis.

Graf did dominate Seles after Seles came back from stabbing. But I can
say it was pretty even before that.

Hey Seles was stabbed... but what is poor Graf's fault. She probably
still wishes that it never happened

Quote:



> > The answer is NO

> > 1989 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) S S. GRAF 6-3 3-6 6-3
> > 1989 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) R16 S. GRAF 6-0 6-1
> > 1989 BRIGHTON CARPET (I) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-4
> > 1990 BERLIN-GERMAN OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 6-4 6-3
> > 1990 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 7-6(6) 6-4
> > ___________________________________________________
> >                 Seles period of domination

> > 1991 US HARDCOURTS HARD (O) F S. GRAF 6-4 6-3
> > 1991 CITIZEN CUP CLAY (O) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-7(4) 6-3
> > 1992 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 6-2 3-6 10-8
> > 1992 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) F S. GRAF 6-2 6-1 2/2
> > 1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) F M. SELES 4-6 6-3 6-2

> >              Graf led 3-2
> > ___________________________________________________
> > 1995 US OPEN HARD (O) F S. GRAF 7-6(6) 0-6 6-3
> > 1996 US OPEN HARD (O) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-4
> > 1998 CHASE CHAMPIONSHIPS CARPET (I) Q S. GRAF 1-6 6-4 6-4
> > 1999 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) Q M. SELES 7-5 6-1 8
> > 1999 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) S S. GRAF 6-7(2) 6-3 6-4

 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by quick_ic » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:18:32


Quote:

> > Neither had dominated the other. This is the most interrupted great
> rivalry
> > in women's tennis.

> Graf did dominate Seles after Seles came back from stabbing. But I can
> say it was pretty even before that.

> Hey Seles was stabbed... but what is poor Graf's fault. She probably
> still wishes that it never happened

If you want to use reasons or excuses for Graf's losses in early 1990s, you
should be consistent in your assessment for Seles, that is, accept the
reasons and excuses for her losses in 1989 (rookie) and 1995 onwards (a
different Seles). That's why if we factor into all the reasons and excuses
for both great players, neither actually had dominated the other.
 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by Robbi » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:21:38

Quote:




> > > Neither had dominated the other. This is the most interrupted
great
> > rivalry
> > > in women's tennis.

> > Graf did dominate Seles after Seles came back from stabbing. But I
can
> > say it was pretty even before that.

> > Hey Seles was stabbed... but what is poor Graf's fault. She
probably
> > still wishes that it never happened

> If you want to use reasons or excuses for Graf's losses in early

1990s

When in my statement, did I ever use any reason or excuse for any
Graf's loss? What gave you that idea?

 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by Tavallinen Jann » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:03:15

It is interesting how Graf fans always want to dismiss the importance of
those two Seles victories in 1990.

In fact, they were the propably the two most significant ones of them all.

The first of them take place when Graf had 11 months and 66 match winning
streak, and she was totally dominating the tour. The other one ended Graf's
three slam victory streak.

Only after these two back-to-back straigh-set losts to Seles Graf start to
lose matches to other players. Most likely Graf lost her self-confidence
realizing that she had a serious young rival.

It is true that Seles did not dominate Graf during 90-93, but she dominate
the tour. Graf did lost lot of matches to Sabatini and ASV in that time, but
she start to lose them only after those losses to Seles, not before.

The Seles *** of the tour really started in Key Biscayne 1990 when she
started her six tournament winning streak including the beating both Graf
and Navratilova for the first time. Graf might ended that year as #1, but
from the March 1990 onwards Seles win more matches and tournaments than Graf
that year. That domination ended to the stabbing, and during that period
Seles won 8 slams against 2 by Graf.

Back in that time there existed a popular theory that Graf was afraid to
meet Seles. In 1991 they played in the same tournament 7 times, Seles win
five of them, Graf the other two by beating Seles in the final. She
obviously shouldn't been afraid to meet Seles, but still she played some of
her most terrible matches ever, when she knew that Seles was waiting her in
the final, like that FO semi against ASV 0-6, 2-6.

T


Quote:
> The answer is NO

> 1989 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) S S. GRAF 6-3 3-6 6-3
> 1989 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) R16 S. GRAF 6-0 6-1
> 1989 BRIGHTON CARPET (I) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-4
> 1990 BERLIN-GERMAN OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 6-4 6-3
> 1990 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 7-6(6) 6-4
> ___________________________________________________
>                Seles period of domination

> 1991 US HARDCOURTS HARD (O) F S. GRAF 6-4 6-3
> 1991 CITIZEN CUP CLAY (O) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-7(4) 6-3
> 1992 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 6-2 3-6 10-8
> 1992 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) F S. GRAF 6-2 6-1 2/2
> 1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) F M. SELES 4-6 6-3 6-2

>             Graf led 3-2
> ___________________________________________________
> 1995 US OPEN HARD (O) F S. GRAF 7-6(6) 0-6 6-3
> 1996 US OPEN HARD (O) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-4
> 1998 CHASE CHAMPIONSHIPS CARPET (I) Q S. GRAF 1-6 6-4 6-4
> 1999 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) Q M. SELES 7-5 6-1 8
> 1999 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) S S. GRAF 6-7(2) 6-3 6-4

 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by Whispe » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:01:03

Quote:

> Back in that time there existed a popular theory that Graf was afraid to
> meet Seles. In 1991 they played in the same tournament 7 times, Seles win
> five of them, Graf the other two by beating Seles in the final. She
> obviously shouldn't been afraid to meet Seles, but still she played some of
> her most terrible matches ever, when she knew that Seles was waiting her in
> the final, like that FO semi against ASV 0-6, 2-6.

I think diagnosed your problem:
     <http://network.news.com.au/image/0,10114,401814,00.jpg>
 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by Robbi » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:44:27

Quote:


> > Back in that time there existed a popular theory that Graf was
afraid to
> > meet Seles. In 1991 they played in the same tournament 7 times,
Seles win
> > five of them, Graf the other two by beating Seles in the final. She
> > obviously shouldn't been afraid to meet Seles, but still she played
some of
> > her most terrible matches ever, when she knew that Seles was
waiting her in
> > the final, like that FO semi against ASV 0-6, 2-6.

> I think diagnosed your problem:
>      <http://network.news.com.au/image/0,10114,401814,00.jpg>

LOL.... That was really funny.... You crack me up....

Whisper, we need more of people like "Tavallinen Jannu". Guys like them
make "Jaros" look like Einstein. I just hope "Tavallinen Jannu" is not
"Jaros".

Because that will be really PATHETIC.

 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by Robbi » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:47:50

Quote:

> Back in that time there existed a popular theory that Graf was afraid
to
> meet Seles.

Popular among people who need a BRAIN SCAN ???
 
 
 

Did Seles really dominate Graf in 1991 and 1992?

Post by Robbi » Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:52:08

Quote:

> Back in that time there existed a popular theory that Graf was afraid
to
> meet Seles.

Graf was SO SCARED.... ooh so scary.... that she blasted Seles 6-2, 6-1
in Wimbledon, when Seles was going for her Grand Slam???

Actually, Seles is a quitter. In 1991, She was going for her grand
slam. But she was afraid of meeting Graf in Wimbledon, so she QUIT from
a chance to WIN GRAND SLAM. What kind of *** does that?

The British tabloids made so much fun of her "BEING A ***" in 1991
for not turning up, that she had to come back in 1992 (to save some
embarrasment) and get her ass handed to by Graf.